Moodys revises Jetblue debt to Negative

[klhoard]

Pilot pay increases during the last half of the 1990s was based on revenues that were largely inflated by the dot.com bubble and the associated record increase in high-yield business travel. While most people at the time didn't understand the artificiality of the economic trends of that time, it surely didn't take a rocket scientist to look back over the entire history of this industry to see that it hasn't been able to collectively show a profit since its inception, and that business is highly cyclical with generally short periods of strong financial performance when overall economic activity is strong. Pilot unions like ALPA got greedy and used only a snapshot view of the industry's unrealistic strong growth in the 1990s to peg their negotiated pay increases going forward over the long-term. The only thing worse was management's own stupidity and greed.

One final thought....GL, unlike a fine wine you don't improve with age nor with 5,000 posts on this mesage board. I'm ashamed to think I have to share the same profession with a knucklehead like you.

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So. . . . Where would they be NOW if they didn't get the "raises of the '90's" before the "concessions of the '00's"???
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Hindsight sure is 20/20, isn't it??
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[General Lee]

Pilot pay increases during the last half of the 1990s was based on revenues that were largely inflated by the dot.com bubble and the associated record increase in high-yield business travel. While most people at the time didn't understand the artificiality of the economic trends of that time, it surely didn't take a rocket scientist to look back over the entire history of this industry to see that it hasn't been able to collectively show a profit since its inception, and that business is highly cyclical with generally short periods of strong financial performance when overall economic activity is strong. Pilot unions like ALPA got greedy and used only a snapshot view of the industry's unrealistic strong growth in the 1990s to peg their negotiated pay increases going forward over the long-term. The only thing worse was management's own stupidity and greed.

One final thought....GL, unlike a fine wine you don't improve with age nor with 5,000 posts on this mesage board. I'm ashamed to think I have to share the same profession with a knucklehead like you.

HA HA. Look in the mirror jacka$$. If you like the status quo and think that being an underpaid busdriver is OK, then fine. Management is always right, according to you. They will protect your interests..... It is our right to try to better our lives, and when companies profit, it is our right to want to participate in the profit sharing. ALPA tries to look out for us, and that is what I pay them to do.

You and your posts have added little value to this board. This forum is meant for information and debate, and if you can't handle it (which is obvious), then leave.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

i admit the pay scale isn't pretty, but its the nature of the beast in the industry we work in today. why do i want to INCREASE pilot cost per seat mile for a specific aircraft?

I understand and don't entirely disagree with the idea that the new 190 pay rate was figured by taking the 320 pay per seat, and multiplying by the number of seats on the 190. Fair enough. It will be interesting to see if management thinks its such a good idea if JB ever operates a larger aircraft, say an A-330. That would just about double the pay over the 320 and make the JB guys the highest paid for that aircraft. My bet is suddenly, JB management will have a different idea on how pay should be figured.

 

[TAZ MAN]

I understand and don't entirely disagree with the idea that the new 190 pay rate was figured by taking the 320 pay per seat, and multiplying by the number of seats on the 190. Fair enough. It will be interesting to see if management thinks its such a good idea if JB ever operates a larger aircraft, say an A-330. That would just about double the pay over the 320 and make the JB guys the highest paid for that aircraft. My bet is suddenly, JB management will have a different idea on how pay should be figured.

Good point.

 

[jbucpt]

HA HA. Look in the mirror jacka$$. If you like the status quo and think that being an underpaid busdriver is OK, then fine. Management is always right, according to you. They will protect your interests..... It is our right to try to better our lives, and when companies profit, it is our right to want to participate in the profit sharing. ALPA tries to look out for us, and that is what I pay them to do.

You and your posts have added little value to this board. This forum is meant for information and debate, and if you can't handle it (which is obvious), then leave.

Bye Bye--General Lee

speedbirds one post had more intelligence and realistic value than your 5000+ post combined general. your statement of "ALPA tries to look out for us" shows your unrealistic, and naive view of what ALPA does for you and how they negotiate contracts. (good economic times and bad). 'bettering our lives" doesnt mean losing your job if economic conditions could go south.

if you dont believe me, lets ask your brethrens at TWA, UNITED, and USAIR how ALPA looked out for them...

in regards to "underpaid busdrivers", i believe its now your union buddies over at UNITED.......

 

[MedFlyer]

It is our right to try to better our lives, and when companies profit, it is our right to want to participate in the profit sharing. ALPA tries to look out for us, and that is what I pay them to do.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I don't think anyone is debating that the DL pilots deserved a raise in 2000. They did deserve a raise. However, your raises ate up the majority of DL's would-be profits. Do you really believe that the DL pilots deserved to consume 75% of DL's profits?? Even worse, that 75% figure is based on the assumption that the late 90's was a normal operating environment (which most people knew it wasn't).

Common sense would tell you that you shouldn't build your pay structure assuming everything will be perfect (like the late 90's). Similarly, you shouldn't build your pay structure based on an economic recession/terrorist attack/fuel price spike, etc. The goal is to build a sustainable pay structure that falls in between. DALPA and DL management failed to do this.

I think it's funny how you keep praising Leo for being such a smart guy and giving you huge raises. Yet, the rest of the time you give us a huge laundry list of Leo's mistakes. If Leo's judgement was so poor (SERP, stock buyback,etc), why was his judgement so good when it came to giving out raises? Your logic just doesn't add up.

 

[Green]

Speedbird,


I'm just curious what your idea of a fair compensation package for pilots would be? The Dal and Ual contracts put them back at pre-concession pay levels. They were not out of line. Pilots have always made a good living. Do you think that is wrong? Do you honestly think that the airline business would have been profitable if pilots had made 20% less during the history of commercial aviation.

Untill the airlines abandon the practicde of charging less than their product costs to provide then pilot salaries are irrelevant. The airlines are knowingly operating at a loss and use employee concessions to mitigate those losses, not to return to profitability.

Look at the last concessionary agreement by Dal which was immediately followed by a massive fare reduction. Us Airways cut their pilot pay nearly 50% and proceeded to lower their fares to unsustainable levels.

The Wall Street journal just quoted the average total compensation (including benefits) of air traffic controllers as 165k/year. Do we deserve to make as much as the guys vectoring us around? I bet airline pilots are nowhere near that 165 figure when you average us out. SWA pays almost double the percentage on employee wages as Ual. We all know who is more succesful. Look at the top businesses in any industry and I think you will find that they pay their employees a premium.

 

[BoilerUP]

The Wall Street journal just quoted the average total compensation (including benefits) of air traffic controllers as 165k/year.

If you include your benefits, not just pay, into your total compensation, I'd be willing to bet its higher than that for pilots even today. Medical, dental, 401(k) match, A plan, B plan, profit sharing, etc adds up.

If you want to compare pay, thats fine..but don't start adding benefits into the equation. I'd be willing to bet that number came from the FAA not NATCA, skewed with benefits included to make the controllers look greedy. Hmmm, kinda like pilot negotiations, eh?

 

[General Lee]

I don't think anyone is debating that the DL pilots deserved a raise in 2000. They did deserve a raise. However, your raises ate up the majority of DL's would-be profits. Do you really believe that the DL pilots deserved to consume 75% of DL's profits?? Even worse, that 75% figure is based on the assumption that the late 90's was a normal operating environment (which most people knew it wasn't).

Common sense would tell you that you shouldn't build your pay structure assuming everything will be perfect (like the late 90's). Similarly, you shouldn't build your pay structure based on an economic recession/terrorist attack/fuel price spike, etc. The goal is to build a sustainable pay structure that falls in between. DALPA and DL management failed to do this.

I think it's funny how you keep praising Leo for being such a smart guy and giving you huge raises. Yet, the rest of the time you give us a huge laundry list of Leo's mistakes. If Leo's judgement was so poor (SERP, stock buyback,etc), why was his judgement so good when it came to giving out raises? Your logic just doesn't add up.

I said in a previous post that the ONLY thing I liked about Leo was his statement about going for a big raise. He said go for what you think you deserve. But, I have listed his multitude of mistakes also.

As far as building the perfect pay structure to weather bad times too, you know that management would normally take advantage of any down time (like September load factors vs Summer) and use it to their own benefit. If you didn't have a no furlough clause, they COULD try seasonal furloughs. (like USA3000) If you tied your salary to prices of oil, they would make sure they didn't buy hedges. Management will often do whatever it takes to make themselves look good, and then take large bonuses. IF you negotiate higher pay scales and allow the opportunity for management to COME TO YOU AND ASK FOR HELP----PROVIDING PROOF----then you can address their needs too. The problem with Leo was that he wanted help, and at the same time was putting $65 million in offshore accounts for his management team. Those "retention" bonuses he also gave out left with the people that they were trying to keep. Michele Burns, our CFO during the troublesome 2001-2004 period, was nice enough to say, after she was leaving, that Delta didn't have to pay her all of her retention bonus at once, rather in two payments, which would be easier for Delta. How nice was that? I thought retention bonuses were there to keep people around? And you want us to give management extra flexibility with our pay? How about we get a raise and then entertain ideas about pay cuts if the proof is there? That is the correct way to do it. ALPA knows that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[LandGreen]

Let me guess, you didn't say anything because your 5 year "interview" was coming up? No union, no protection. They have learned how to shut you guys up----a 5 year interview...... You may care about the rates, but you are too scared to speak up. So, instead, you put your efforts into something better for the rest of us------TRANSCON TURNS. I can't wait to do JFK-LAX-JFK in one day. Maybe I could catch a good nap on the autoland back into JFK in the FOG. Next thing you will want is to marry your SISTER. Thanks a lot. Don't choke on the blue Kool-aid. Breathe in, breathe out.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Hey General.....



Refresh my short memory please................was it not motha delta that started the advent and pheonomenal growth of regional jets at the expense of mainline jobs?

I think we can all give at least a casual head nod to jetBlue management for not outsourcing their E190 to "jetBlue Connection"

Once the economics for this brand new a/c are in and IF jetBlue is still making a profit with them....then you can complain about pay rates! Until then please put those stones down since the glass walls in our "legacy house" are extremely fragil these days!

 

[GuppyPuppy]

By them moving on, most of us will move up (after the PRPs are gone). Them leaving 5 years early will help the rest of us make up for the loss, somewhat. I have moved up 2000 numbers in one year. ONE YEAR. I can hold a larger aircraft now (at least the 764 FO, maybe more), but I choose quality of life right now. (So I can come to Flightinfo and debate)


Bye Bye--General Lee

This is why you don't see such a public outrage at the payrates on the E190 by JB crews. Most figure they will be on the aircraft (as captain) a maximum of 3-4 years before they can hold a line on the Airbus (as captain) with better pay. I could take your statement highlighted in red and apply the same thinking to JB. "I will be able to make up for the lower pay by getting a quick upgrade".

I know you've been vocal about JB being non-union and I'd like to make an observation. Not until growth slows significantly will we see a union. Management is dangling a carrot in front of us in the form of a rather quick upgrade on the A320. Once we start seeing 3 year E190 FO's, then we might see some union action. Once we start seeing those 10+ year E190 captains making less than a Horizon pilot, then we might see some union action. A union vote at this time would be a waste of resources because it wouldn't pass. Now, if JB ponies up and starts paying more on the E190 (like many have speculated based on A320 pay history) then they can hold off a union. To those that think the E190 pay will increase to something respectable, I'll believe it when I see it. I think the pay increase on the A320 was due, in large part, to retain pilots. It was offered at a time when pilots were leaving to go to AA, DL and NW. In light of September 11th, I applaud JB management for keeping the pay raise.

I'd also like to know how long Delta was operating before their pilots voted in a union. Same goes for UA, AA, NW, US, CO1 and CO2, America West (wasn't it something like 10 or 11 years there? Even at Emery where we were treated like crap it took 5 or 6 years. BTW...ALPA did one heck of a screw job on the EWA pilots. ALPA has little concern for the smaller pilot groups because spending tons of money to protect them doesn't pay off (in their mind).

Lastly, General Lee...please don't paint the JB guys with such a broad brush. Many of us dislike the transcon turns and E190 pay. Personally, I question the safety aspect of a transcon turn when the weather is down. Personally, I think the rates on the E190 are low. However, I like my job and I intend to keep it. I will schmooze the customers and fly the plane the way they want me to, but at the end of the day it is still just a job. Days off and a paycheck. I've been at too many airlines to get a hard-on about this one too. Maybe I'll get that hard-on when I turn 60! Something for my wife to look forward to...or be scared of!!!

Cheers!

GP

 

[B6Guy]

Use reality General

General, if you are going to go off on a rant at least use real facts not BS.

At JetBlue:

There is no '5-year interview', our contract is forever, automatically renews. The 'five year' deal is for the company to revisit the pay scales every five years. Unless of course they have already revised them like our management did in 2001. They gave us a raise from $78/hr to $110/hr in '01. We didn't have to strike, threaten, or organize for this pay raise either.

Transcon turns:

Even for an old guy like myself, I found the JFK-OAK-JFK and JFK-LAS-JFK transcon turns to be MUCH easier than any of our 4-leg up and down the east coast 8 hour flight/ 15 hour duty pairings. And yes I even had bad weather on the return to JFK on one of the transcons. Don't make comments till you've tried it. It's about duty time, NOT flight time. And who said you were going to be able to adopt Jetblue's new efficient transcon turns [if we get them] at mother Delta?? I hope we can keep them for ourselves.

If you want to get re-married, I'd recommend your weight set that you are so proud of, or maybe your reflection in your mirror, or your 5000 posts. Maybe you can start a Poll where we all can commend you and pat you on your internet shoulders for your 5000 entries of drivel.

Get a life. Oh, you think you have one.....at your keyboard.

 

[General Lee]

General, if you are going to go off on a rant at least use real facts not BS.

At JetBlue:

There is no '5-year interview', our contract is forever, automatically renews. The 'five year' deal is for the company to revisit the pay scales every five years. Unless of course they have already revised them like our management did in 2001. They gave us a raise from $78/hr to $110/hr in '01. We didn't have to strike, threaten, or organize for this pay raise either.

Transcon turns:

Even for an old guy like myself, I found the JFK-OAK-JFK and JFK-LAS-JFK transcon turns to be MUCH easier than any of our 4-leg up and down the east coast 8 hour flight/ 15 hour duty pairings. And yes I even had bad weather on the return to JFK on one of the transcons. Don't make comments till you've tried it. It's about duty time, NOT flight time. And who said you were going to be able to adopt Jetblue's new efficient transcon turns [if we get them] at mother Delta?? I hope we can keep them for ourselves.

If you want to get re-married, I'd recommend your weight set that you are so proud of, or maybe your reflection in your mirror, or your 5000 posts. Maybe you can start a Poll where we all can commend you and pat you on your internet shoulders for your 5000 entries of drivel.

Get a life. Oh, you think you have one.....at your keyboard.

Thanks old man. (you said it) First of all, I was joking about your 5 year interview, even though you have no recourse should something go wrong (which would never happen to you guys). Dave Bushy will always take care of you.......I also have a bridge I would love to sell you, near your Yonkers crash pad.

Second, GIVE ME A BREAK ABOUT HOW EASY IT WOULD BE TO FLY TRANSCON TURNS. YOU SOUND STUPID. Nobody is strong enough or alert enough to BE AS ALERT AS YOU SHOULD BE when returning to JFK after a LGB turn. That is stupid. You will fall asleep at the wheel (or stick in your case) and you will hit the hotel on final for the VOR 13L. You will. Nose dive in. And your Captain or FO will be asleep too or a zombie. Throw some bad weather in there, and it will make it worse. You will line up and land on the oval at the Aquaduct race track.

Get re-married? What? You are clueless. I was joking with that "drivel" I was talking about. If you had a sense of humor you would have caught that. You don't. Ex Navy? I thought so. The 5000 mark post was a joke, and I was making fun of myself. I thought it was amazing that I even got there. I could explain more to you, but you aren't worth it.

Time to get a life, eh? You too pal.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

This is why you don't see such a public outrage at the payrates on the E190 by JB crews. Most figure they will be on the aircraft (as captain) a maximum of 3-4 years before they can hold a line on the Airbus (as captain) with better pay. I could take your statement highlighted in red and apply the same thinking to JB. "I will be able to make up for the lower pay by getting a quick upgrade".

I know you've been vocal about JB being non-union and I'd like to make an observation. Not until growth slows significantly will we see a union. Management is dangling a carrot in front of us in the form of a rather quick upgrade on the A320. Once we start seeing 3 year E190 FO's, then we might see some union action. Once we start seeing those 10+ year E190 captains making less than a Horizon pilot, then we might see some union action. A union vote at this time would be a waste of resources because it wouldn't pass. Now, if JB ponies up and starts paying more on the E190 (like many have speculated based on A320 pay history) then they can hold off a union. To those that think the E190 pay will increase to something respectable, I'll believe it when I see it. I think the pay increase on the A320 was due, in large part, to retain pilots. It was offered at a time when pilots were leaving to go to AA, DL and NW. In light of September 11th, I applaud JB management for keeping the pay raise.

I'd also like to know how long Delta was operating before their pilots voted in a union. Same goes for UA, AA, NW, US, CO1 and CO2, America West (wasn't it something like 10 or 11 years there? Even at Emery where we were treated like crap it took 5 or 6 years. BTW...ALPA did one heck of a screw job on the EWA pilots. ALPA has little concern for the smaller pilot groups because spending tons of money to protect them doesn't pay off (in their mind).

Lastly, General Lee...please don't paint the JB guys with such a broad brush. Many of us dislike the transcon turns and E190 pay. Personally, I question the safety aspect of a transcon turn when the weather is down. Personally, I think the rates on the E190 are low. However, I like my job and I intend to keep it. I will schmooze the customers and fly the plane the way they want me to, but at the end of the day it is still just a job. Days off and a paycheck. I've been at too many airlines to get a hard-on about this one too. Maybe I'll get that hard-on when I turn 60! Something for my wife to look forward to...or be scared of!!!

Cheers!

GP

GP,

I like your style. I like how you logically answer some of my questions and actually use reason. That is mighty civil of you, unlike your buddy here B6guy. Hopefully you don't have to fly with a pill like that too often.

I don't really know when the DL pilots started with ALPA, but it was before my time. I started in '96, and I have seen some ups and downs. (9-11 being the largest down I have ever seen) I hope you guys eventually get some sort of protection and a collective bargaining unit to make sure you do get what you deserve, and not what JB thinks you deserve. Your airline started fresh, with new payscales and year 1 longevity, and that is for every type of employee. That made it easier for you to weather 9-11 and the aftermath, since your costs weren't as high as the legacies. That fact will help you stay around probably.

I am glad you are against the transcon turns deal. You can see along with every other sane person that it would be dangerous and foolish to try a two man crew for over 10 hours, returning to possible bad weather in NY. IF you have 3 pilots that would rotate, that might be fine---we do that to Aruba sometimes and some Carribbean islands. That gives you the chance to rest and get some shut eye. But, the company doesn't want that extra expense. IF it were up to B6guy, you would be doing those turns, and he would marry his sister. He might as well change all of the rules. I am also glad you see the E190 rates the way they are, very low for a 100 seat aircraft. Sure it is cautious for your management crew, but it also a slap in your face. They can't afford an extra $10 or $20 an hour to show you that you are special and deserve a descent wage? You supposedly made it to the top (JB) and you get paid less than some 50 seater airlines? Come on. JBguy doesn't mind, though.

I appreciate you writing in a civil manner and bringing on a good debate. Take care.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Hey General.....



Refresh my short memory please................was it not motha delta that started the advent and pheonomenal growth of regional jets at the expense of mainline jobs?

I think we can all give at least a casual head nod to jetBlue management for not outsourcing their E190 to "jetBlue Connection"

Once the economics for this brand new a/c are in and IF jetBlue is still making a profit with them....then you can complain about pay rates! Until then please put those stones down since the glass walls in our "legacy house" are extremely fragil these days!

Wait, we weren't on the same list (or even the same airline). You guys are on the same list. We didn't even own ASA or Comair back then when the RJs took off. You guys on the JB airbi are not putting up a fight for your own future pilots. Big difference. Also, the RJ was an improvement over the props, and at the time didn't seem like a bad idea, especially with business travelers who didn't like props. Now, business travellers don't like RJs when they can take a LCC mainline plane instead. The E190 is not an RJ, and the crews shouldn't be paid like they fly one. You should know that. I think it is great JB is getting 100 seaters. Frontier has a 100 seater in the A318.(they have 7 currently) I don't think they make the JB E190 rates on that, do they? (12 year Capt is $157 an hour, and 12 year FO is $94 an hour---higher than your 12 year Captain rates on the E190) Are they doing better than you? They are a LCC too, and use your LiveTV also.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[TheXmanz]

Junk Pay

$89 per hour for the E190 after 12 years sucks bad enough, but its more like $79 per hour since JB has only been around a few...What where you guys thinking when you agreed to that? Just curious. A successful company agreeing to something like that, must be a very large carrot your CEO dangled in front of you guys!

 

[General Lee]

$89 per hour for the E190 after 12 years sucks bad enough, but its more like $79 per hour since JB has only been around a few...What where you guys thinking when you agreed to that? Just curious. A successful company agreeing to something like that, must be a very large carrot your CEO dangled in front of you guys!

He didn't even have to dangle his dingle, he JUST DID IT, and they TOOK IT. (And they weren't even under the threat of bankruptcy)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[klhoard]

$89 per hour for the E190 after 12 years sucks bad enough, but its more like $79 per hour since JB has only been around a few...What where you guys thinking when you agreed to that? Just curious. A successful company agreeing to something like that, must be a very large carrot your CEO dangled in front of you guys!

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The JB guys don't have access to the word "agreement".
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[AA717driver]

Just a small correction: APA turned down the Industry Leading contract offered in 2000-2001 because it included "baseball-style arbitration". That's a "winner-take-all" proposition.

There isn't an hourly rate high enough to entice me to agree to give THAT to AMR.TC

 

[elag777]

Let me guess, you didn't say anything because your 5 year "interview" was coming up? No union, no protection. They have learned how to shut you guys up----a 5 year interview...... You may care about the rates, but you are too scared to speak up. So, instead, you put your efforts into something better for the rest of us------TRANSCON TURNS. I can't wait to do JFK-LAX-JFK in one day. Maybe I could catch a good nap on the autoland back into JFK in the FOG. Next thing you will want is to marry your SISTER. Thanks a lot. Don't choke on the blue Kool-aid. Breathe in, breathe out.


Bye Bye--General Lee

OMG! A five year interview, no way! how could I have been so blind? and all the payments on the Airbus fleet are due by Friday! Please....