Moodys revises Jetblue debt to Negative

[General Lee]

You could have taken your present deal many moons before you finally did, but the seniors chose to take a slow death of the company so they could schedule the attrition to top out their pensions. This little maneuver has put the whole company at risk if you don't get a capital infusion in BK. I believe you will get your capital infusion in BK, but not without further pain to the people that are left. The new owners will insist.

It also helped move 2000 people out of here. That helps the remaining pilots. Also, Leo's SERP deal left the MEC wondering what else was hidden, and it is hard to negotiate a pay cut when others on the top, who made the bad decisions, might be getting a pay off. You should be able to see that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[MedFlyer]

Medflyer,

Sure it was. Even Leo Mullin said at the time to our MEC "I would expect you to go for the highest pay possible. You are worth it, right?" Good ole Leo thought we should fight for it, and would have thought less of us had we not. That was the only possitive thing I could really say about him. He made some large mistakes, but he also knew that you should fight for your worth. He actually said that. And, he signed the contract.

Bye Bye--General Lee

All of the sudden you care what Leo thinks of the pilot group? Give me a break.

What does how much a pilot thinks their worth have anything to do with how much an airline can actually afford to pay? The two are entirely unrelated. Almost every pilot is going to think they are worth millions of dollars to the company....and they're probably right. But the reality is that no airline can afford to pay their pilots millions each.

The C2K contract was a backward looking contract which falsely assumed that that the abnormal period of the late 90's would continue. Anyone with even a modicum of common sense knew that the late 90's was an aberration. Leo only signed the contract because he wanted to BUY labor peace. He was too afraid and too weak to do anything else.

 

[General Lee]

All of the sudden you care what Leo thinks of the pilot group? Give me a break.

What does how much a pilot thinks their worth have anything to do with how much an airline can actually afford to pay? The two are entirely unrelated. Almost every pilot is going to think they are worth millions of dollars to the company....and they're probably right. But the reality is that no airline can afford to pay their pilots millions each.

The C2K contract was a backward looking contract which falsely assumed that that the abnormal period of the late 90's would continue. Anyone with even a modicum of common sense knew that the late 90's was an aberration. Leo only signed the contract because he wanted to BUY labor peace. He was too afraid and too weak to do anything else.

Ok, what? Millions each? Over the life of your career maybe. Gas prices at the time were low, and airlines were making big bucks. We took a cut in '96, and it was time for repayment. AA didn't do it because they negotiated after 9-11, but they were offered our contract and turned it down prior to 9-11.. You need a history lesson my friend. And, if you could tell the future, why didn't you say anything about 9-11? And, Leo did say that supposedly. He thought we were worth it, because we could afford it at the time. That doesn't make his other mistakes less painful now.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jbucpt]

Our union has held together and done what has been best for our long term survivability. You and your guys will take it and love it whatever Bushy and Neeleman think is best. You guys are profitable and were profitable when the E190 rates were created. I never heard anything publically decrying that fact, primarily because you have no protection. You have no excuse.


your union has done what?????? your union has given back all it "negotiated".
so what have you gained since your industry leading contract went into effect?? where's the union protection???

your union didnt have the foresight to negotiate a contract if economical conditions went south (9/11 was only part of the problem and thats a fact). which they were. now you are the ones "who will take whatever the bankrupcty court thinks it is best." lets see how your union hold up in the upcoming months.

unfortunately,you better take a hard long look at what united alpa pilots have right now because it will soon be you. (outstanding union protection!!)

you trying to spin mullin into your corner wont fly general. dalpha made just as many mistakes trying to obtain a "industry leading contract" as he did.

 

[stillflyn]

Ok, what? First off, we didn't have that remark---that was United's MEC chair, Dubinski, and they actually slowed down the company (Summer of 98) and left United in even worse shape prior to 9-11.

General,

For the record, it was the summer of 2000 aka the "Summer of Love". We didn't slow down, we just didn't pick up overtime.

Stillflyn

 

[General Lee]

Our union has held together and done what has been best for our long term survivability. You and your guys will take it and love it whatever Bushy and Neeleman think is best. You guys are profitable and were profitable when the E190 rates were created. I never heard anything publically decrying that fact, primarily because you have no protection. You have no excuse.


your union has done what?????? your union has given back all it "negotiated".
so what have you gained since your industry leading contract went into effect?? where's the union protection???

your union didnt have the foresight to negotiate a contract if economical conditions went south (9/11 was only part of the problem and thats a fact). which they were. now you are the ones "who will take whatever the bankrupcty court thinks it is best." lets see how your union hold up in the upcoming months.

unfortunately,you better take a hard long look at what united alpa pilots have right now because it will soon be you. (outstanding union protection!!)

you trying to spin mullin into your corner wont fly general. dalpha made just as many mistakes trying to obtain a "industry leading contract" as he did.

Again, you seem to have the ability to see into the future. We had a no furlough clause built in, but there has to be a part that states with unforseen circumstances a furlough can happen---what happens if Mars invades? Sounds stupid, but did you think the twin towers would ever be brought down by two airliners?

Our union has been fighting for us lately, too. Our company originally said no more furlough recalls this year (as stated in March of this year). Dalpa convicned them we needed more pilots back,a nd the company agreed to 125 recalls, from zero. Not bad, and more will probably need to come back since the large retirements as of late. (although right now 11 came back for August and 10 are scheduled right now for Sep)

As far as what the union can do in the upcoming months, it won't be easy. It isn't easy for any airline in Chap 11, and let's hope you never have to go through that too. I don't think they are doing it to get back at the pilots for their C2K contract, but rather to hopefully stabilize the company and rid it of some of the debt. The company lost an amazing $10 billion over the last 4 years. Was that our fault? You seem to think so. You can't seem to tell me what you are going to do about the $89 an hour 12 year Captain wage on the E190? We have looked at our financial problems, so now it is time to tell us why you cannot change your pay scale, even when your company is profitable. A pay cut is for companies who cannot afford current rates. How about you guys and your new 100 seater?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[A350]

General:

First, you need to look past the pay rate. The pay is low for a 12 year, 100 seat Captain.....however, there are no 12 year Captains at JB in any aircraft.

JB mgmt already gave the 320 pilots a raise, retro and without being prodded after the pilots gave it up post 9/11. In other words, they don't want to jeapordize the financial health of the company to pad their bank account for a few months or years only to have "choked the goose" to death.

Last, what you say is the problem with ALPA.....if the company makes a profit of $10 million, ALPA wants $8 million in raises. No restraint and no looking forward.

A350

 

[Green]

A350-

No amount of "looking forward" would have predicted 9/11 followed by a massive surge in fuel prices, a war, and the administration's decision to tax the h#ll out of airlines in order to fund TSA. Airline tickets are taxed more than beer and tobacco.

Those contracts were not that out of line at the time. Why would AMR's management out right offer the Delta rates to APA if they were abnormally high, or unsustainable. Management has a fudiciary responsibility to run the company well and if they knowingly signed something unsustainable they could be held liable. Obviously they expected to be able to turn a profit with that contract.

In fact if you look back to the concessionary agreements that were made in the 90's, Dal and Ual contracts were just bringing the industry back to the status quo. Without the likes of JBlue, Awa, F9 ect those rates wouldn't look abnormally high.

Of course I work for a LCC so I can't bitch about LCC carriers, but I do bristle when someone claims that the legacy contracts were outrageous and the only way a company can succeed is through cutting our payrates below Air Traffic Controller levels. I think it's time Alpa establishes a minimum wage per aircraft so we don't whittle each other down to nothing.

 

[General Lee]

General:

First, you need to look past the pay rate. The pay is low for a 12 year, 100 seat Captain.....however, there are no 12 year Captains at JB in any aircraft.

JB mgmt already gave the 320 pilots a raise, retro and without being prodded after the pilots gave it up post 9/11. In other words, they don't want to jeapordize the financial health of the company to pad their bank account for a few months or years only to have "choked the goose" to death.

Last, what you say is the problem with ALPA.....if the company makes a profit of $10 million, ALPA wants $8 million in raises. No restraint and no looking forward.

A350

A350,

Delta was making huge profits after we had our '96 concessionary contract. When Leo Mullin came onboard, our MEC went to him to see if we could renegotiate since the company was now very profitable. He said "A contract is a contract." It took 3 more years to get our great contract, and then 9-11 hit. Your $10 million analogy doesn't cut it. AA offered their pilots our contract pre-9-11, and they turned it down, wanting more. Our contract was asking for a COLA, or Cost of Living adjustment, and looking at current profitability. Guessing what may or may not happen in the future is hard to do. Do you know when the next recession will be? Tell me please, I will sell some stock....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[MedFlyer]

A350,
Your $10 million analogy doesn't cut it. AA offered their pilots our contract pre-9-11, and they turned it down, wanting more. Our contract was asking for a COLA, or Cost of Living adjustment, and looking at current profitability.
Bye Bye--General Lee

Actually, his $10 million dollar analogy is spot on. The C2K contract guaranteed that the DL pilots would consume most of DL's profits and that's assuming the economy had stayed healthy and no 9/11.

Don't forget that DL's financials had begun to erode in 2000. In the first quarter of 2001, DL lost $122 million dollars. That may not sound like a lot given the magnitude of DL's losses today, but in the 1st quarter of 2000, DL had a PROFIT of $172 million. Clearly, things were beginning to unravel at DL before the pilots contract was signed.

Guessing what may or may not happen in the future is hard to do.

You're right, but smart companies still do it. Smart companies keep their costs manageable so that they can survive the down times. Everyone talks about WN's now industry leading pay...what they don't look at is WN's productivity. The WN pilots earn that pay by being some of the most productive pilots in the industry. The WN pilots get raises that are sustainable (even in downtimes) and offset much of that costs with productivity improvements.

The companies that survive are those that look to the future, not live in the past.

 

[sayagain?]

The Jetblue guys (management) don't want to hire extra people to be that third pilot. They want to stretch the rules and safety in general to get what they want. Some Jetblue people want the change too, hoping to rely on their A320 autopilots and the great blue coffee served from the young stews. Hopefully the weather will always be great on return to NY. Maybe I am not the $6 million bionic man like most of the Jetblue pilots----I am tired after one 5 1/2 hour leg to LAX from JFK. Maybe, oh maybe, flying to LGB is the Key---less stress than LAX......


Bye Bye--General Lee

General-

I'm still 50/50 on the transcon turns, but, what about this scenario? I just finished a trip which had us fly form IAD to OAK early in the AM. Once in OAK we get 12 hours rest and do a red-eye back to IAD. Now, I felt that I would be in better shape if this was just a turn. I was wide awake during the day but fighting to stay awake during the red-eye. What's safer? I don't have the answer.

sayagain?

 

[jbucpt]

You can't seem to tell me what you are going to do about the $89 an hour 12 year Captain wage on the E190? We have looked at our financial problems, so now it is time to tell us why you cannot change your pay scale, even when your company is profitable. A pay cut is for companies who cannot afford current rates. How about you guys and your new 100 seater?

i admit the pay scale isn't pretty, but its the nature of the beast in the industry we work in today. why do i want to INCREASE pilot cost per seat mile for a specific aircraft? when your financially saavy ( i.e. maintaining current profitable cost due to unforseen future events like $60+ a barrel) it has to be done. period. however, as jetblue has done in the past, if the 190 is very profitable, you will see a pay raise. just like we did retroactive in the fall of 2001. if the aircraft isnt protfitable then there is NO GIVEBACK. (the only thing ALPA has been giving lately) makes sound economic sense. (something ALPA has none of, and you have learned from)

so please, stop thumping your chest about union representation. when push comes to shove, all alpa has been able to do is BEND OVER, and then try and fix their loses.

 

[Diesel-9]

Dejavu all over again. Question of the night. How many airlines have started up and failed since DEE-regulation?

 

[Diesel-9]

Maybe the airlines should hire CEO's out of the oil industry. The cost to get a barrel out of the ground has stayed consistently at $12-$15. Yet the price per barrel has gone from $25 to $61 in just over a year with CH-11's coming everywhere. Lets start by hanging all the lawyers. Especially the ones running airlines who don't know how to spell leadership let alone display it.

 

[General Lee]

General-

I'm still 50/50 on the transcon turns, but, what about this scenario? I just finished a trip which had us fly form IAD to OAK early in the AM. Once in OAK we get 12 hours rest and do a red-eye back to IAD. Now, I felt that I would be in better shape if this was just a turn. I was wide awake during the day but fighting to stay awake during the red-eye. What's safer? I don't have the answer.

sayagain?

I don't have a problem with that scenario. We do that too. We fly really early into the West Coast and fly the allnighter back to ATL, or JFK/BOS from LAS. That is fine. I just don't like flying nonstop to LAX from JFK, waiting an hour, and then flying back to JFK with possible weather problems. Going the other way around is bad too, since that East Coast weather can drain you. Your scenario allows you to sleep somewhat. That is GOOD.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Maybe the airlines should hire CEO's out of the oil industry. The cost to get a barrel out of the ground has stayed consistently at $12-$15. Yet the price per barrel has gone from $25 to $61 in just over a year with CH-11's coming everywhere. Lets start by hanging all the lawyers. Especially the ones running airlines who don't know how to spell leadership let alone display it.

Where did Glen Tilton come from? He came from Texxaco or Chevron I think---he was a Senior VP I believe. That is why he got a huge bonus from United---to bring him what he could have had at the oil company.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Actually, his $10 million dollar analogy is spot on. The C2K contract guaranteed that the DL pilots would consume most of DL's profits and that's assuming the economy had stayed healthy and no 9/11.

Don't forget that DL's financials had begun to erode in 2000. In the first quarter of 2001, DL lost $122 million dollars. That may not sound like a lot given the magnitude of DL's losses today, but in the 1st quarter of 2000, DL had a PROFIT of $172 million. Clearly, things were beginning to unravel at DL before the pilots contract was signed.



You're right, but smart companies still do it. Smart companies keep their costs manageable so that they can survive the down times. Everyone talks about WN's now industry leading pay...what they don't look at is WN's productivity. The WN pilots earn that pay by being some of the most productive pilots in the industry. The WN pilots get raises that are sustainable (even in downtimes) and offset much of that costs with productivity improvements.

The companies that survive are those that look to the future, not live in the past.

That last sentence made me get a Kleenex. Wow. Academy Award for writing excellence. Why didn't Delta come to us earlier and at least take the first offer of 10% a year earlier? Were they thinking into the future with our 32.5% pay cut? I guess Delta was.

And, don't compare WN to DL please. Their productivity comes from their route structure. They don't really have a hub and spoke. Sure, there are some connections, but a lot of their flights fly in a straight line across the country, with multiple stops. Our business plan is built on huge hubs, with connections from a lot of cities that LCCs avoid---and put them on bigger planes to fly to big cities and often INTL cities. Our people working at the big hubs are very efficient, often working 12 flights a day at each gate, maybe more with the new turn times. But, our pilots cannot always take the next flight out. (Maybe the MD88 guys) Next thing you will say about WN is that they average more hours per month than DL pilots. Well, since they have one aircraft type, they don't have to go to 4 week schools when they move up or down from one aircraft to another. On the "average", we fly less per month----but a good percentage of our folks are in school----which brings DOWN the average.

Please come up with some more "profound" statements. I have the Kleenex waiting.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

Actually, his $10 million dollar analogy is spot on. The C2K contract guaranteed that the DL pilots would consume most of DL's profits and that's assuming the economy had stayed healthy and no 9/11.

actually General, he is on the right track. Our biggest profits prior to 9/11 were about 1 billion. And that was during one of the best times ever in the industry. I think I remember our contract was going to cost the company about 2 billion over the life of the contract, or about 500 mil a year. So our new contract costs were going to eat up half of the profits Delta was getting during record years. I felt it was too much at the time and I still think it was too much. I never spent a dime of the pay raise we got because I knew it would never last.

 

[General Lee]

Leo Mullin thought "we deserved to ask for a raise." He said he expected us to do that. He then signed it and said "now you are the highest paid pilots, and you work for Delta." He was almost proud of it. Yeah, it was a lot, and he wasn't taking into account the uprising LCCs. Were we supposed to? We were making up for our '96 concessions. We could have done other things to make up for the loss, or we could have conceded earlier with our concessions, but the SERP program didn't help. The $2 billion stock buy back pre-9-11 really didn't help matters, but I don't remember approving that. Selling the hedges must have been my fault too. Hoping USAir would just die was my fault also. Parking the MD-11s just before the Iraq invasion and not seeing that we might actually have a busy Summer that year (which we did) was my first suggestion...... NOT taking the first couple offers from the pilot group was also the plan....



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[SpeedBird]

Pilot pay increases during the last half of the 1990s was based on revenues that were largely inflated by the dot.com bubble and the associated record increase in high-yield business travel. While most people at the time didn't understand the artificiality of the economic trends of that time, it surely didn't take a rocket scientist to look back over the entire history of this industry to see that it hasn't been able to collectively show a profit since its inception, and that business is highly cyclical with generally short periods of strong financial performance when overall economic activity is strong. Pilot unions like ALPA got greedy and used only a snapshot view of the industry's unrealistic strong growth in the 1990s to peg their negotiated pay increases going forward over the long-term. The only thing worse was management's own stupidity and greed.

One final thought....GL, unlike a fine wine you don't improve with age nor with 5,000 posts on this mesage board. I'm ashamed to think I have to share the same profession with a knucklehead like you.