Moodys revises Jetblue debt to Negative

[General Lee]

Lowecur,

I don't think Republic or MDA set the bar for the E190. The E190 never flew at MDA, and Republic just now has decided to use them for USAir. The Jetblue E190 rates were established first, and they are very low for a 100 seat aircraft. No short term memory loss here for me. The part that made me mad about that deal is the lack of outrage from the current jetblue pilots, since most knew at the time that they wouldn't have to fly those new planes since they were still getting plenty of Airbi. And, any airline can sustain higher gas prices as long as they add money to the fares. Could Neeleman sustain his product without raising fares and higher oil does come along? No.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Eagleflip]

General, we agree on (at least!) one thing...our current EMB rates are "Regional" in nature. And in my mind, they are wrong. Time will tell what will happen with this particular pay scale. I am optimistic, however, that the rates will be changed for the better once the jet proves its economic utility.

 

[LarryinTN]

that may be why the pay scales for the E190 are "regional" level---to help pay for future costs.....

The JB E190 pay rates were, I believe, derived by taking the A320 pay rates and keeping the same hourly rate per seat. That the resulting E190 rates are so low just points out what I long ago discovered...

On a cost per seat (or per ASM) basis, the regional pilots are grossly OVERpaid while the wide body, international pilots are well UNDERpaid.

I figured this out nearly 15 years ago while flying the trusty J32 for American Eagle. We were in contract negotiations all convinced that we deserved more than the $28k/$15k a J32 Capt/FO was earning yet the company kept telling us that we were already being paid as much as they could afford. I broke out the calculator to prove them wrong and found out that the numbers did not support our case! It was right then and there that I forever gave up on any notion that a career at a Regional Airline was an acceptable option for me.

Here's an example of how the calculation works...

According to AirlinePilotPay.com the rates at DAL for a B777 crew is $216/$147 for the CA/FO. That's $363/hr for the entire crew. The rates for a typical ASA CRJ-200 crew might be $75/$40 or $115/hr. A DAL B777 has 268 so the crew cost per seat-hour is $363/268 = $1.37 while on the ASA CRJ it's $115/50 $2.30. Try it on a UAL crew and the disparity is even worse!

I'm sure the idea of sticking with the same cost/seat from the A320 sounded really good to the JetBlue guys until they started running the numbers. Hopefully they'll remember to hold their management to that same formula if/when they even get larger airplanes!

 

[LarryinTN]

Eagleflip,

Has there been any word on what new cities the E190s will allow JB to open? Sure would be nice to see you guy in BNA!

 

[lowecur]

Lowecur,

I don't think Republic or MDA set the bar for the E190. If you don't think the 170 and 190 are one series, then you need to do your homework. You can't have a regional rate on the 170 and mainline rate for 190. That's just plain silly. The E190 never flew at MDA, and Republic just now has decided to use them for USAir. The Jetblue E190 rates were established first, and they are very low for a 100 seat aircraft. Symantics. Reread what I just said. No short term memory loss here for me. The part that made me mad about that deal is the lack of outrage from the current jetblue pilots, since most knew at the time that they wouldn't have to fly those new planes since they were still getting plenty of Airbi. And, any airline can sustain higher gas prices as long as they add money to the fares. Could Neeleman sustain his product without raising fares and higher oil does come along? No.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Again, the E-jets are one series. They were never met to be broken apart. Smart huh? Check the archives, Skywest had a contract to fly up to a 99 seater long before Jetblue. The MDA and Republic rates were just part of the natural progression of the 170.

 

[General Lee]

Again, the E-jets are one series. They were never met to be broken apart. Smart huh? Check the archives, Skywest had a contract to fly up to a 99 seater long before Jetblue. The MDA and Republic rates were just part of the natural progression of the 170.

With your reasoning, we could have the next series, the E192 with 120 seats, and then the E193 with 140 seats, and then the E194 with 160 seats, and then the E196 (I skipped one number) with 180 seats-----and since they are all within 20 seats, they should all have regional rates........ That is wrong. I know they have the same systems and cockpits, but they bring in more revenue and we should be paid for that. And, bringing up SkyWest's fiasco to fly the same rates for up to 99 seats was the biggest labor upset in history. Some people like to bring up the fact that I fly the 757 and the 767 for the same rate at Delta. Well, as true as that is, we brought the 757 rates UP TO THE 767 rates. That is different. We didn't lower the rates from the 767 to the 757 rates. Nope.

Your reasoning sounds like you don't come from a labor backround, rather a management one or a guy working at GEICO. It's all about the number of seats and the airplanes in the same category. The E190 now competes with 737-200s, and almost to the 717 or A318. Yet, it has CRJ 50 rates.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[mach zero]

Growth Junkies
ol' Lorenzo and Donn Burr were growth junkies too. Remember the 747? Might have been a white elephant for People's Express, but it had much lower costs per seat mile than the E-190.... and it was a proven airframe without the gremlins that the Brazillian's seem to install as standard equipment.
QUOTE]

I am finally glad there is someone else on this board that echos what I was saying about Embraer's product reliability. In the years I spent flying their equipment, I had more failures, glitches, and lost pay from mtx. cancellations than I did on any of the 7 other types of airliners I have flown.

 

[E170Guppykiller]

I believe most of the U.S. airline industry, cept for you know who, has a negative rating.

You mean UPS?

 

[lowecur]

With your reasoning, we could have the next series, the E192 with 120 seats, and then the E193 with 140 seats, and then the E194 with 160 seats, and then the E196 (I skipped one number) with 180 seats-----and since they are all within 20 seats, they should all have regional rates........ My my, where to draw the line. The problem is there is no line when the pilots have no power. Get the power back, and then you can draw the line. The only way you get the power back is for the airlines to start making money again. Once you get it back be sure to remember how mgt screwed you, and the cycle will start all over again. Isn't it grand? That is wrong. I know they have the same systems and cockpits, but they bring in more revenue and we should be paid for that. I think the rates should be pro-rata from the bottom up. Get the power back and then you can start from the top down again. And, bringing up SkyWest's fiasco to fly the same rates for up to 99 seats was the biggest labor upset in history. So stop blaming Jetblue. Some people like to bring up the fact that I fly the 757 and the 767 for the same rate at Delta. Well, as true as that is, we brought the 757 rates UP TO THE 767 rates. That is different. We didn't lower the rates from the 767 to the 757 rates. Nope.

Your reasoning sounds like you don't come from a labor backround, rather a management one or a guy working at GEICO. My family are all union electricians. They all priced themselves into no work. Look no further than the new CBA in the NHL. Being reasonable has never been part of labor relations throughout the history of mgt and labor.........hence the cycle will continue. It's all about the number of seats and the airplanes in the same category. The E190 now competes with 737-200s, and almost to the 717 or A318. Yet, it has CRJ 50 rates. Next time you talk to a NWA DC9 pilot, ask him why the 10s rates were never priced like an RJ? Quick answer, same series.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Adios! Jimmy.

 

[General Lee]

How about the MD-80 at NW (aquired thru the Republic merger---just like the DC9-10)compared to the DC9-10? Same series, right? It is just a stretched DC-9. And the E190 is a stretched E170. Amazing how I am able to convey my point and always contradict you. Hey, we have 737-700 rates now, and they are less than the 738 rates. Why? Because the 738 is bigger. The E190 is in a larger class, and should have better pay.

And, I suppose we can get the "power" back when management continues to make bad decisions and take their retention bonuses and run..... We are not to blame here. Sure, we had high rates, but they were earned and at the time we got them we deserved them. We were making huge profits back then, and then Leo Mullin made some HUGE mistakes (like the $2 billion stock buy back 2 weeks prior to 9-11, instead of paying off some debt..... Thanks Morgan Stanley and all of you dumba$$ MBAs that helped Leo make that stupid decision), and yet he left with $16 million and credit for a 30 year pension. That SERP program was genius too. Yeah, it was our fault....How about high priced management? Is it wrong to want to make a decent living? What about when management makes the mistakes? It's hard to get the power back when you didn't make the mistakes. Leo thought USAir and United would liquidate, and he also didn't see the LCC thing coming. That must have really been my fault.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Mugs]

You mean UPS?

Guppykiller. Let me guess. Early to mid-twenties, single, and a graduate of one of those ridiculously expensive "fast track" airline pilot programs that take up 90% of the Ad pages in Flying magazine.

I'd like to see what you think of your Guppykiller line after you have been in this business for a while. Be careful what you wish for kid. Do you have one of those Guppykiller stickers on your flightbag too?

The sad thing here is that yes, the E jets will be guppykillers. However, the pilots will never participate in the improved economics that the E series will offer over the guppy. They will never see anything close to even today's guppy pay when the 100 and 120+ seat E-jets come out. Guys like you are too blind to realize that. But hey, the chicks dig the uniform, right?

 

[Dangerkitty]

Guppykiller. Let me guess. Early to mid-twenties, single, and a graduate of one of those ridiculously expensive "fast track" airline pilot programs that take up 90% of the Ad pages in Flying magazine.

I'd like to see what you think of your Guppykiller line after you have been in this business for a while. Be careful what you wish for kid. Do you have one of those Guppykiller stickers on your flightbag too?

Great post. I agree 100%

 

[Blue Dude]

The part that made me mad about that deal is the lack of outrage from the current jetblue pilots, since most knew at the time that they wouldn't have to fly those new planes since they were still getting plenty of Airbi.

You're out of line, General. Just because we didn't show our outrage to you personally doesn't mean that it wasn't directed at more relevant targets. I'm not going to air dirty laundry in public, but I will say that quite a bit has been said, and with a great deal of heat.

I will never see the E-190, but I was and am disgusted with the pay scale. You have some nerve accusing me and those like me of not caring because we got ours. Screw you, man.

 

[A350]

PCL 128:

Starting to smell the PeopleExpress stench, huh?

Where were you when PE was plying the skies? Watching Magilla Gorilla and Speed Racer on the tube? If you are an RJ F/O for Pinnacle, either you started your career very late in life or you are full of it.

Which is it?

There are a few parallels with JetBlue and PE....however they are few. JetBlue has the most fuel efficient fleet, and with the addition of the 190 will have two fleet types. PE had 737, 727, and 747 aircraft, and they all were from different airlines and they were extremely inefficient as far as fuel goes. The major carriers of the day weren't in the dire financial condition of today so they could put the squeeze on PE and PE overexpanded in the face of increasing competition with no real edge in any category other than fares. Once the fares were equal, the people went with the established carriers and combined with the inefficient fleet, 3 pilot airplanes, overexpansion in overseas markets and of course Newark....(need I say more) they failed. JetBlue not only offers low fares, but they offer a good product and it is only going to get better with the 190.

A350

 

[Floatplane]

I could have taken the 190, but since it is paying regional pay I decided it was not for me. To suggest that the pilots @ B6 are not outragged over the pay on the 190 just shows how arrogant and ignorant you are concerning what goes on internally with the pilot group at JetBlue. What a load of crap, Mr. General, I am so sick and tired of the allmighty Delta Pilots blaming everything on JetBlue pilots. The industry is in turmoil and is a complete failure at this point. There are too many factors that have gotten us to this point to list here, but to suggest it is the 1180 pilots at JetBlue that have gotten us to where we are now is just plain crap. When Delta flushes your pension down the toilet this fall you will feel the pain of just how fu%&ed up this industry is. Try and get a grip of what has happened and decide if you have the stomache to stay in the game. The game has changed due to economics, and labor is loosing the battle. Good luck with your future, we all need it.

 

[General Lee]

You're out of line, General. Just because we didn't show our outrage to you personally doesn't mean that it wasn't directed at more relevant targets. I'm not going to air dirty laundry in public, but I will say that quite a bit has been said, and with a great deal of heat.

I will never see the E-190, but I was and am disgusted with the pay scale. You have some nerve accusing me and those like me of not caring because we got ours. Screw you, man.

Let me guess, you didn't say anything because your 5 year "interview" was coming up? No union, no protection. They have learned how to shut you guys up----a 5 year interview...... You may care about the rates, but you are too scared to speak up. So, instead, you put your efforts into something better for the rest of us------TRANSCON TURNS. I can't wait to do JFK-LAX-JFK in one day. Maybe I could catch a good nap on the autoland back into JFK in the FOG. Next thing you will want is to marry your SISTER. Thanks a lot. Don't choke on the blue Kool-aid. Breathe in, breathe out.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I could have taken the 190, but since it is paying regional pay I decided it was not for me. To suggest that the pilots @ B6 are not outragged over the pay on the 190 just shows how arrogant and ignorant you are concerning what goes on internally with the pilot group at JetBlue. What a load of crap, Mr. General, I am so sick and tired of the allmighty Delta Pilots blaming everything on JetBlue pilots. The industry is in turmoil and is a complete failure at this point. There are too many factors that have gotten us to this point to list here, but to suggest it is the 1180 pilots at JetBlue that have gotten us to where we are now is just plain crap. When Delta flushes your pension down the toilet this fall you will feel the pain of just how fu%&ed up this industry is. Try and get a grip of what has happened and decide if you have the stomache to stay in the game. The game has changed due to economics, and labor is loosing the battle. Good luck with your future, we all need it.

Allmighty Delta pilots? When did I say I was any better than you? I have the right to give my opinion on this board, and I have done it a lot. I am 40 and I know I won't have a "DB" pension. Neither will you. We will have a 401K, regardless of Chap 11 or not. I have time to make it up, but others do not, and a lot have been bailing (156 today) to keep some of their hard earned money. That is the new reality, and I understand it. Can I stay in the game? Absolutely. I have other side projects (besides being on Flightinfo quite a bit) that keep me and the wife going, and some are other businesses. I will be fine any way it goes. Yeah, labor is losing the battle, any maybe someday that will change. I don't know where I will be, but I hope it is in the left seat of a Song 757. Caution wake turbulence.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

I will never see the E-190, but I was and am disgusted with the pay scale. You have some nerve accusing me and those like me of not caring because we got ours. Screw you, man.

So what are you going to do about that 100 seat pay scale besides just be disgusted by it? Maybe being disgusted is all you can do, given the fact that you have no say in your pay, benefits or working conditions at JBLU.

 

[FDJ2]

I could have taken the 190, but since it is paying regional pay I decided it was not for me. To suggest that the pilots @ B6 are not outragged over the pay on the 190 just shows how arrogant and ignorant you are concerning what goes on internally with the pilot group at JetBlue.

So what are you going to do about the pay on the 190, besides just being outraged? Are you going to do anything, or do you fall into the "I got mine" category? I guess there really isn't much you can do about it since your pilot group just has to take what mangement decides to give you.

 

[Smoking Man]

I am still trying to locat the re-interview room, it must be co located with other companies profits. General I am glad you are excited about the transcon turns !

I know what I am going to do about the 100 seat rates, I am going to come in at night on my own time and clean the back side of the 190's so there will be a spot on it just for you! Or make this post twice! In all reality our 190 rates are higher than the rates at CHQ ( a union company) for the same aircraft.