Moodys revises Jetblue debt to Negative

[Mugs]

You mean UPS?

Guppykiller. Let me guess. Early to mid-twenties, single, and a graduate of one of those ridiculously expensive "fast track" airline pilot programs that take up 90% of the Ad pages in Flying magazine.

I'd like to see what you think of your Guppykiller line after you have been in this business for a while. Be careful what you wish for kid. Do you have one of those Guppykiller stickers on your flightbag too?

The sad thing here is that yes, the E jets will be guppykillers. However, the pilots will never participate in the improved economics that the E series will offer over the guppy. They will never see anything close to even today's guppy pay when the 100 and 120+ seat E-jets come out. Guys like you are too blind to realize that. But hey, the chicks dig the uniform, right?

 

[Dangerkitty]

Guppykiller. Let me guess. Early to mid-twenties, single, and a graduate of one of those ridiculously expensive "fast track" airline pilot programs that take up 90% of the Ad pages in Flying magazine.

I'd like to see what you think of your Guppykiller line after you have been in this business for a while. Be careful what you wish for kid. Do you have one of those Guppykiller stickers on your flightbag too?

Great post. I agree 100%

 

[Blue Dude]

The part that made me mad about that deal is the lack of outrage from the current jetblue pilots, since most knew at the time that they wouldn't have to fly those new planes since they were still getting plenty of Airbi.

You're out of line, General. Just because we didn't show our outrage to you personally doesn't mean that it wasn't directed at more relevant targets. I'm not going to air dirty laundry in public, but I will say that quite a bit has been said, and with a great deal of heat.

I will never see the E-190, but I was and am disgusted with the pay scale. You have some nerve accusing me and those like me of not caring because we got ours. Screw you, man.

 

[A350]

PCL 128:

Starting to smell the PeopleExpress stench, huh?

Where were you when PE was plying the skies? Watching Magilla Gorilla and Speed Racer on the tube? If you are an RJ F/O for Pinnacle, either you started your career very late in life or you are full of it.

Which is it?

There are a few parallels with JetBlue and PE....however they are few. JetBlue has the most fuel efficient fleet, and with the addition of the 190 will have two fleet types. PE had 737, 727, and 747 aircraft, and they all were from different airlines and they were extremely inefficient as far as fuel goes. The major carriers of the day weren't in the dire financial condition of today so they could put the squeeze on PE and PE overexpanded in the face of increasing competition with no real edge in any category other than fares. Once the fares were equal, the people went with the established carriers and combined with the inefficient fleet, 3 pilot airplanes, overexpansion in overseas markets and of course Newark....(need I say more) they failed. JetBlue not only offers low fares, but they offer a good product and it is only going to get better with the 190.

A350

 

[Floatplane]

I could have taken the 190, but since it is paying regional pay I decided it was not for me. To suggest that the pilots @ B6 are not outragged over the pay on the 190 just shows how arrogant and ignorant you are concerning what goes on internally with the pilot group at JetBlue. What a load of crap, Mr. General, I am so sick and tired of the allmighty Delta Pilots blaming everything on JetBlue pilots. The industry is in turmoil and is a complete failure at this point. There are too many factors that have gotten us to this point to list here, but to suggest it is the 1180 pilots at JetBlue that have gotten us to where we are now is just plain crap. When Delta flushes your pension down the toilet this fall you will feel the pain of just how fu%&ed up this industry is. Try and get a grip of what has happened and decide if you have the stomache to stay in the game. The game has changed due to economics, and labor is loosing the battle. Good luck with your future, we all need it.

 

[General Lee]

You're out of line, General. Just because we didn't show our outrage to you personally doesn't mean that it wasn't directed at more relevant targets. I'm not going to air dirty laundry in public, but I will say that quite a bit has been said, and with a great deal of heat.

I will never see the E-190, but I was and am disgusted with the pay scale. You have some nerve accusing me and those like me of not caring because we got ours. Screw you, man.

Let me guess, you didn't say anything because your 5 year "interview" was coming up? No union, no protection. They have learned how to shut you guys up----a 5 year interview...... You may care about the rates, but you are too scared to speak up. So, instead, you put your efforts into something better for the rest of us------TRANSCON TURNS. I can't wait to do JFK-LAX-JFK in one day. Maybe I could catch a good nap on the autoland back into JFK in the FOG. Next thing you will want is to marry your SISTER. Thanks a lot. Don't choke on the blue Kool-aid. Breathe in, breathe out.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I could have taken the 190, but since it is paying regional pay I decided it was not for me. To suggest that the pilots @ B6 are not outragged over the pay on the 190 just shows how arrogant and ignorant you are concerning what goes on internally with the pilot group at JetBlue. What a load of crap, Mr. General, I am so sick and tired of the allmighty Delta Pilots blaming everything on JetBlue pilots. The industry is in turmoil and is a complete failure at this point. There are too many factors that have gotten us to this point to list here, but to suggest it is the 1180 pilots at JetBlue that have gotten us to where we are now is just plain crap. When Delta flushes your pension down the toilet this fall you will feel the pain of just how fu%&ed up this industry is. Try and get a grip of what has happened and decide if you have the stomache to stay in the game. The game has changed due to economics, and labor is loosing the battle. Good luck with your future, we all need it.

Allmighty Delta pilots? When did I say I was any better than you? I have the right to give my opinion on this board, and I have done it a lot. I am 40 and I know I won't have a "DB" pension. Neither will you. We will have a 401K, regardless of Chap 11 or not. I have time to make it up, but others do not, and a lot have been bailing (156 today) to keep some of their hard earned money. That is the new reality, and I understand it. Can I stay in the game? Absolutely. I have other side projects (besides being on Flightinfo quite a bit) that keep me and the wife going, and some are other businesses. I will be fine any way it goes. Yeah, labor is losing the battle, any maybe someday that will change. I don't know where I will be, but I hope it is in the left seat of a Song 757. Caution wake turbulence.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

I will never see the E-190, but I was and am disgusted with the pay scale. You have some nerve accusing me and those like me of not caring because we got ours. Screw you, man.

So what are you going to do about that 100 seat pay scale besides just be disgusted by it? Maybe being disgusted is all you can do, given the fact that you have no say in your pay, benefits or working conditions at JBLU.

 

[FDJ2]

I could have taken the 190, but since it is paying regional pay I decided it was not for me. To suggest that the pilots @ B6 are not outragged over the pay on the 190 just shows how arrogant and ignorant you are concerning what goes on internally with the pilot group at JetBlue.

So what are you going to do about the pay on the 190, besides just being outraged? Are you going to do anything, or do you fall into the "I got mine" category? I guess there really isn't much you can do about it since your pilot group just has to take what mangement decides to give you.

 

[Smoking Man]

I am still trying to locat the re-interview room, it must be co located with other companies profits. General I am glad you are excited about the transcon turns !

I know what I am going to do about the 100 seat rates, I am going to come in at night on my own time and clean the back side of the 190's so there will be a spot on it just for you! Or make this post twice! In all reality our 190 rates are higher than the rates at CHQ ( a union company) for the same aircraft.

 

[General Lee]

I am still trying to locat the re-interview room, it must be co located with other companies profits. General I am glad you are excited about the transcon turns !

I know what I am going to do about the 100 seat rates, I am going to come in at night on my own time and clean the back side of the 190's so there will be a spot on it just for you! Or make this post twice! In all reality our 190 rates are higher than the rates at CHQ ( a union company) for the same aircraft.

You sound drunk. Your rates are higher than CHQ's huh? Good for you. Your 100 seat rates are less than 50 seat rates at Expressjet(max pay at both airlines--E145 vs E190). Come on Smoke and Mirrors, you can't trick us. And, I didn't really understand what you were going to do late at night on your own time. Becareful leaving your pad in Yonkers at night, you may want to run.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Let me guess, you didn't say anything because your 5 year "interview" was coming up? No union, no protection. They have learned how to shut you guys up----a 5 year interview...... You may care about the rates, but you are too scared to speak up. So, instead, you put your efforts into something better for the rest of us------TRANSCON TURNS. I can't wait to do JFK-LAX-JFK in one day. Maybe I could catch a good nap on the autoland back into JFK in the FOG. Next thing you will want is to marry your SISTER. Thanks a lot. Don't choke on the blue Kool-aid. Breathe in, breathe out.


Bye Bye--General Lee

You don't want to do transcon turns? So, don't. What's the problem, that's what your union is for, right? That's B6 management, BTW. Not the B6 pilots. Personally, I don't think JB will see too many transcon turns. I suppose you blame your paycut on the DL pilots also?
And what's this about 5-year interview? You get that the same place you were told B6 doesn't pay for it's airplanes?

 

[ERJDRVR2]

I am still trying to the back side of the 190's so there will be a spot on it just for you! Or make this post twice! In all reality our 190 rates are higher than the rates at CHQ ( a union company) for the same aircraft.

Yes but yours rates include a $1.00 CLEANING FEE in your compensation.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

As a furloughed "legacy" pilot and a current blue dude I would love to add to this conversation.

However, I fear that any negative comments on a public forum like this might be seen by management and used to discipline me.

All I can say is that B6 does some things right and some things "self-censored for fear of my job".

Cheers!

GP

 

[jbucpt]

Let me guess, you didn't say anything because your 5 year "interview" was coming up? No union, no protection. They have learned how to shut you guys up----a 5 year interview...... You may care about the rates, but you are too scared to speak up. So, instead, you put your efforts into something better for the rest of us------TRANSCON TURNS. I can't wait to do JFK-LAX-JFK in one day. Maybe I could catch a good nap on the autoland back into JFK in the FOG. Next thing you will want is to marry your SISTER. Thanks a lot. Don't choke on the blue Kool-aid. Breathe in, breathe out.


Bye Bye--General Lee

hey general, (aka: hypocrite)

i know misery loves company, however, i didnt see your great "union protectors" staging sick out, picketing, calling for strikes when your union protector's gave your "industry leading contract ALL BACK.... way to lead by example!!

whats are your "union protectors" going to do when your bending over in september???

if you still believe we have a 5 year "interview" then your as ignorant as i assume you to be...........

 

[lowecur]

You sound drunk. Your rates are higher than CHQ's huh? Good for you. Your 100 seat rates are less than 50 seat rates at Expressjet(max pay at both airlines--E145 vs E190). Come on Smoke and Mirrors, you can't trick us. And, I didn't really understand what you were going to do late at night on your own time. Becareful leaving your pad in Yonkers at night, you may want to run.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Check the P&L for Continental and AMR last Q. Where did there big losses come from? You guessed it.........Eagle & XJT. The 50 seat RJ is a cash drain and those two carriers may stay out of bk, but they will have to deal with it another way. Those high rates at XJT won't last.

 

[General Lee]

hey general, (aka: hypocrite)

i know misery loves company, however, i didnt see your great "union protectors" staging sick out, picketing, calling for strikes when your union protector's gave your "industry leading contract ALL BACK.... way to lead by example!!

whats are your "union protectors" going to do when your bending over in september???

if you still believe we have a 5 year "interview" then your as ignorant as i assume you to be...........

HA HA. Maybe you haven't been at a company that has stated "we will go Chap 11 and change everything anyway if you don't take this $1 billion pay cut a year."?? If you were incharge of the union, you could have done better..... Yeah right. Maybe you don't know the whole story. We probably would have given more cuts sooner, and we did offer some first, until the SERP problem occured. That was Leo Mullins grand plan to send $65 million to an offshore account to guarantee pensions for senior executives. ALPA didn't like that very much. Our union actually discovered that plan and ratted out the people responsible. Leo Mullin was then pretty much fired, and a lot of his cronies went along with him----thanks to our union. You guys can't even speak up without fearing Dave Bushey and his henchmen. $89 an hour for a 12 year Captain on a 100 seat jet???? That is ridiculous. Especially for a company that isn't even close to Chap 11. I can understand getting that rate when a judge hands it to you, but you guys "took it in the arse" and there has been little mention since publically. Why? Because most of you don't have to fly that plane if you don't want to. Leave it for your future pilots. Nice.



oldxfr8dog,

No JBLU pilots support transcon turns? we had plenty on this board extolling the virtues of having 7 or 8 working days on, then the rest off. Hmmmm. How about being a zombie for 5 more days, and then being put in the grave with a bunch of other people. Ridiculous. But wait, your auto pilot can do the VOR 13 L at JFK in bad weather......Right..... Any other changes you guys want to do for the rest of us to enjoy?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BoilerUP]

I *seriously* doubt Expressjet pilots would accept a concessionary contract.

 

[lowecur]

I can understand getting that rate when a judge hands it to you, but you guys "took it in the arse" and there has been little mention since publically. Why? Because most of you don't have to fly that plane if you don't want to. Leave it for your future pilots. Nice. Bye Bye--General Lee

Posturing???

Your senior pilots sure showed mgt and the juniors. They stuck to their guns so they could retire with a nice nestegg, thus leaving the doodoo for you guys to clean up. Nice. Is it "One for all and all for one" or "every man for themselves" at DL?"

 

[General Lee]

Posturing???

Your senior pilots sure showed mgt and the juniors. They stuck to their guns so they could retire with a nice nestegg, thus leaving the doodoo for you guys to clean up. Nice. Is it "One for all and all for one" or "every man for themselves" at DL?"

Those guys actually earned THEIR MONEY. They were here for more than 25 years, and they lived by the rules for the longest time. They deserved the money. As far as leaving the rest of us in the learch, they didn't have a choice. When DL says it can't afford the payments, and we can all see that, I say take your money and run. Most could not make that money up if they stayed another 5 years. By them moving on, most of us will move up (after the PRPs are gone). Them leaving 5 years early will help the rest of us make up for the loss, somewhat. I have moved up 2000 numbers in one year. ONE YEAR. I can hold a larger aircraft now (at least the 764 FO, maybe more), but I choose quality of life right now. (So I can come to Flightinfo and debate)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[lowecur]

Those guys actually earned THEIR MONEY. They were here for more than 25 years, and they lived by the rules for the longest time.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Holding the line sealed DLs future in BK. I told you that many moons ago.

 

[General Lee]

Holding the line sealed DLs future in BK. I told you that many moons ago.

They are allowed to retire anytime after 50 years old. This financial debacle is NOT our fault. The C2K contract was affordable at the time we signed it. Then some management mistakes ($2 billion stock buy back, SERP program, selling the fuel hedges, underestimating the LCc craze, thinking USAir would just go away, etc) really sealed the deal. Blaming us for trying to better our own lives WHEN we could afford it is not right. We accepted cuts when we needed to and everyone else was participating.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[jbucpt]

[ guys can't even speak up without fearing Dave Bushey and his henchmen. $89 an hour for a 12 year Captain on a 100 seat jet???? That is ridiculous. Especially for a company that isn't even close to Chap 11. I can understand getting that rate when a judge hands it to you, but you guys "took it in the arse" and there has been little mention since publically. Why? Because most of you don't have to fly that plane if you don't want to. Leave it for your future pilots. Nice.


no, we didnt take it in the a**, YOU TOOK IN THE A** AND WILL STILL BE BENDING OVER BY THE END OF THIS YEAR. (the united flight attendants have more balls than you and your alpa boys)

no, i dont like the pay rates, BUT, i would rather start with same " pilot cost per seat mile" than:
A. GIVE BACK THE MONEY
B. LOSE MY RETIREMENT
C. FURLOUGH, ( oh, thats right, your ALPA had a NO FURLOUGH CLAUSE, THEN YOU AND YOUR SENIOR ALPA PILOTS PICK UP OPEN TIME TO "SAVE THE COMPANY")

yet there was: no picketing, no strike talk, NOTHING!! and YOU HAVE THE GALL TO SAY THAT JETBLUE PILOTS DONT SPEAK UP AND ARE AFRAID??

i can promise you this general hypocrite, when the E-190's take-off, those pilots will be getting a raise while your losing yours.

the truth is general, mullins made mistakes, but you and ALPA tried and sqeezed every last egg out of delta's goose with your last "contract". now that time's are bad, YOU are paying for it.

we might not be as "high and mighty" like you boys at delta, but we wont be retarded and make the same mistakes YOU AND YOUR ALPA BROTHERHOOD made.

" We don't want to kill the golden goose; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg it has."

 

[oldxfr8dog]

oldxfr8dog,

No JBLU pilots support transcon turns? we had plenty on this board extolling the virtues of having 7 or 8 working days on, then the rest off. Hmmmm. How about being a zombie for 5 more days, and then being put in the grave with a bunch of other people. Ridiculous. But wait, your auto pilot can do the VOR 13 L at JFK in bad weather......Right..... Any other changes you guys want to do for the rest of us to enjoy?

Bye Bye--General Lee

I didn't say NO JBLU pilots support T'cons. I said It was a management idea, not the pilots. How many have supported it on this site? 5, 10? How many know the restrictions which will be imposed by the FAA waiver? Do you?
If it does get approval, there won't be any 7 or 8 days on. (Nice bit of diversion, there, Gen.) There is no proposal to modify the 30/7 rule, as far as I know.
At this point, I am personally against the T'con turn program. When the conditions, rules, schedules, and what-ifs are explained, I'll take a look at it. Then, I'll make a decision, as will most JB pilots.

Congrats' on >5000 post, BTW!

 

[lowecur]

They are allowed to retire anytime after 50 years old. This financial debacle is NOT our fault. The C2K contract was affordable at the time we signed it. Then some management mistakes ($2 billion stock buy back, SERP program, selling the fuel hedges, underestimating the LCc craze, thinking USAir would just go away, etc) really sealed the deal. Blaming us for trying to better our own lives WHEN we could afford it is not right. We accepted cuts when we needed to and everyone else was participating.

Bye Bye---General Lee

You could have taken your present deal many moons before you finally did, but the seniors chose to take a slow death of the company so they could schedule the attrition to top out their pensions. This little maneuver has put the whole company at risk if you don't get a capital infusion in BK. I believe you will get your capital infusion in BK, but not without further pain to the people that are left. The new owners will insist.

 

[FlickerFade]

Pardon my entry into the fray, but re: trans-con turns:

-Why are they any different than 3-man turns? In terms of effort, a 3-man crew is legal for this type of flying, yet 2 aren't. Does this make sense, are the CA and FO sleeping more if they've got an FE??

-Doing long dist. turns are a great way to max out quality of life. I would also argue that it is way easier than a 6-8 leg day of a much shorter distance.

-There are lots of restrictions in order to get the exemption if I remember correctly.

 

[MedFlyer]

The C2K contract was affordable at the time we signed it.

Bye Bye---General Lee

No, it wasn't. Even during the best of times (the late 90's), the C2K contract wasn't affordable. By time the C2K contract was ratified, DL had already begun to bleed red ink.

I'm not blaming the DL pilots for all DL's problems. DL's bozo management certainly made plenty of mistakes. The first mistake was being bullied into a contract they couldn't afford.

 

[General Lee]

No, it wasn't. Even during the best of times (the late 90's), the C2K contract wasn't affordable. By time the C2K contract was ratified, DL had already begun to bleed red ink.

I'm not blaming the DL pilots for all DL's problems. DL's bozo management certainly made plenty of mistakes. The first mistake was being bullied into a contract they couldn't afford.

Medflyer,

Sure it was. Even Leo Mullin said at the time to our MEC "I would expect you to go for the highest pay possible. You are worth it, right?" Good ole Leo thought we should fight for it, and would have thought less of us had we not. That was the only possitive thing I could really say about him. He made some large mistakes, but he also knew that you should fight for your worth. He actually said that. And, he signed the contract.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

[ guys can't even speak up without fearing Dave Bushey and his henchmen. $89 an hour for a 12 year Captain on a 100 seat jet???? That is ridiculous. Especially for a company that isn't even close to Chap 11. I can understand getting that rate when a judge hands it to you, but you guys "took it in the arse" and there has been little mention since publically. Why? Because most of you don't have to fly that plane if you don't want to. Leave it for your future pilots. Nice.


no, we didnt take it in the a**, YOU TOOK IN THE A** AND WILL STILL BE BENDING OVER BY THE END OF THIS YEAR. (the united flight attendants have more balls than you and your alpa boys)

no, i dont like the pay rates, BUT, i would rather start with same " pilot cost per seat mile" than:
A. GIVE BACK THE MONEY
B. LOSE MY RETIREMENT
C. FURLOUGH, ( oh, thats right, your ALPA had a NO FURLOUGH CLAUSE, THEN YOU AND YOUR SENIOR ALPA PILOTS PICK UP OPEN TIME TO "SAVE THE COMPANY")

yet there was: no picketing, no strike talk, NOTHING!! and YOU HAVE THE GALL TO SAY THAT JETBLUE PILOTS DONT SPEAK UP AND ARE AFRAID??

i can promise you this general hypocrite, when the E-190's take-off, those pilots will be getting a raise while your losing yours.

the truth is general, mullins made mistakes, but you and ALPA tried and sqeezed every last egg out of delta's goose with your last "contract". now that time's are bad, YOU are paying for it.

we might not be as "high and mighty" like you boys at delta, but we wont be retarded and make the same mistakes YOU AND YOUR ALPA BROTHERHOOD made.

" We don't want to kill the golden goose; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg it has."

Ok, what? First off, we didn't have that remark---that was United's MEC chair, Dubinski, and they actually slowed down the company (Summer of 98) and left United in even worse shape prior to 9-11. That was the way to do it, riiiiight. Then, when we were fighting for our contract, we were SUED by the company and LOST---we had to keep flying overtime. That is insane, but they had the GA judge in their corner. So, knowing that now, and knowing that the new President Bush had said "There will be NO strikes during the Summer of 2001"---what would your union do? Your union? OOOOOPS. You guys let management tell you what will happen.......Got it yet chief? We didn't have the choice to strike---WE DIDN'T. We couldn't even stop flying overtime without getting sued. We had 33 or more pilots sued for $100,000 each for insighting a riot on our ALPA boards. We settled with DL after signing our contract, which was the biggest in history anyway, and affordable at the time. IF you knew 9-11 was coming, why didn't you say anything?

As far as bending over in the future, it may happen. Luckily, many pilots have left, and most of us will move up and try to regain our lost pay on larger aircraft. As far as our no-furlough clause---it did state "circumstances for which we have no control." Would you classify 9-11 and the resulting down turn in that category? I would. It was the worst thing that has ever happened in our industry's history. I would say they over did it alittle, but they were worried that people would not come back as fast. They did, but this was something unknown. Other mistakes were made by management after that, and Grinstein admits it. Our union has held together and done what has been best for our long term survivability. You and your guys will take it and love it whatever Bushy and Neeleman think is best. You guys are profitable and were profitable when the E190 rates were created. I never heard anything publically decrying that fact, primarily because you have no protection. You have no excuse.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Pardon my entry into the fray, but re: trans-con turns:

-Why are they any different than 3-man turns? In terms of effort, a 3-man crew is legal for this type of flying, yet 2 aren't. Does this make sense, are the CA and FO sleeping more if they've got an FE??

-Doing long dist. turns are a great way to max out quality of life. I would also argue that it is way easier than a 6-8 leg day of a much shorter distance.

-There are lots of restrictions in order to get the exemption if I remember correctly.

The Jetblue guys (management) don't want to hire extra people to be that third pilot. They want to stretch the rules and safety in general to get what they want. Some Jetblue people want the change too, hoping to rely on their A320 autopilots and the great blue coffee served from the young stews. Hopefully the weather will always be great on return to NY. Maybe I am not the $6 million bionic man like most of the Jetblue pilots----I am tired after one 5 1/2 hour leg to LAX from JFK. Maybe, oh maybe, flying to LGB is the Key---less stress than LAX......


Bye Bye--General Lee