Moodys revises Jetblue debt to Negative

[GuppyPuppy]

By them moving on, most of us will move up (after the PRPs are gone). Them leaving 5 years early will help the rest of us make up for the loss, somewhat. I have moved up 2000 numbers in one year. ONE YEAR. I can hold a larger aircraft now (at least the 764 FO, maybe more), but I choose quality of life right now. (So I can come to Flightinfo and debate)


Bye Bye--General Lee

This is why you don't see such a public outrage at the payrates on the E190 by JB crews. Most figure they will be on the aircraft (as captain) a maximum of 3-4 years before they can hold a line on the Airbus (as captain) with better pay. I could take your statement highlighted in red and apply the same thinking to JB. "I will be able to make up for the lower pay by getting a quick upgrade".

I know you've been vocal about JB being non-union and I'd like to make an observation. Not until growth slows significantly will we see a union. Management is dangling a carrot in front of us in the form of a rather quick upgrade on the A320. Once we start seeing 3 year E190 FO's, then we might see some union action. Once we start seeing those 10+ year E190 captains making less than a Horizon pilot, then we might see some union action. A union vote at this time would be a waste of resources because it wouldn't pass. Now, if JB ponies up and starts paying more on the E190 (like many have speculated based on A320 pay history) then they can hold off a union. To those that think the E190 pay will increase to something respectable, I'll believe it when I see it. I think the pay increase on the A320 was due, in large part, to retain pilots. It was offered at a time when pilots were leaving to go to AA, DL and NW. In light of September 11th, I applaud JB management for keeping the pay raise.

I'd also like to know how long Delta was operating before their pilots voted in a union. Same goes for UA, AA, NW, US, CO1 and CO2, America West (wasn't it something like 10 or 11 years there? Even at Emery where we were treated like crap it took 5 or 6 years. BTW...ALPA did one heck of a screw job on the EWA pilots. ALPA has little concern for the smaller pilot groups because spending tons of money to protect them doesn't pay off (in their mind).

Lastly, General Lee...please don't paint the JB guys with such a broad brush. Many of us dislike the transcon turns and E190 pay. Personally, I question the safety aspect of a transcon turn when the weather is down. Personally, I think the rates on the E190 are low. However, I like my job and I intend to keep it. I will schmooze the customers and fly the plane the way they want me to, but at the end of the day it is still just a job. Days off and a paycheck. I've been at too many airlines to get a hard-on about this one too. Maybe I'll get that hard-on when I turn 60! Something for my wife to look forward to...or be scared of!!!

Cheers!

GP

 

[B6Guy]

Use reality General

General, if you are going to go off on a rant at least use real facts not BS.

At JetBlue:

There is no '5-year interview', our contract is forever, automatically renews. The 'five year' deal is for the company to revisit the pay scales every five years. Unless of course they have already revised them like our management did in 2001. They gave us a raise from $78/hr to $110/hr in '01. We didn't have to strike, threaten, or organize for this pay raise either.

Transcon turns:

Even for an old guy like myself, I found the JFK-OAK-JFK and JFK-LAS-JFK transcon turns to be MUCH easier than any of our 4-leg up and down the east coast 8 hour flight/ 15 hour duty pairings. And yes I even had bad weather on the return to JFK on one of the transcons. Don't make comments till you've tried it. It's about duty time, NOT flight time. And who said you were going to be able to adopt Jetblue's new efficient transcon turns [if we get them] at mother Delta?? I hope we can keep them for ourselves.

If you want to get re-married, I'd recommend your weight set that you are so proud of, or maybe your reflection in your mirror, or your 5000 posts. Maybe you can start a Poll where we all can commend you and pat you on your internet shoulders for your 5000 entries of drivel.

Get a life. Oh, you think you have one.....at your keyboard.

 

[General Lee]

General, if you are going to go off on a rant at least use real facts not BS.

At JetBlue:

There is no '5-year interview', our contract is forever, automatically renews. The 'five year' deal is for the company to revisit the pay scales every five years. Unless of course they have already revised them like our management did in 2001. They gave us a raise from $78/hr to $110/hr in '01. We didn't have to strike, threaten, or organize for this pay raise either.

Transcon turns:

Even for an old guy like myself, I found the JFK-OAK-JFK and JFK-LAS-JFK transcon turns to be MUCH easier than any of our 4-leg up and down the east coast 8 hour flight/ 15 hour duty pairings. And yes I even had bad weather on the return to JFK on one of the transcons. Don't make comments till you've tried it. It's about duty time, NOT flight time. And who said you were going to be able to adopt Jetblue's new efficient transcon turns [if we get them] at mother Delta?? I hope we can keep them for ourselves.

If you want to get re-married, I'd recommend your weight set that you are so proud of, or maybe your reflection in your mirror, or your 5000 posts. Maybe you can start a Poll where we all can commend you and pat you on your internet shoulders for your 5000 entries of drivel.

Get a life. Oh, you think you have one.....at your keyboard.

Thanks old man. (you said it) First of all, I was joking about your 5 year interview, even though you have no recourse should something go wrong (which would never happen to you guys). Dave Bushy will always take care of you.......I also have a bridge I would love to sell you, near your Yonkers crash pad.

Second, GIVE ME A BREAK ABOUT HOW EASY IT WOULD BE TO FLY TRANSCON TURNS. YOU SOUND STUPID. Nobody is strong enough or alert enough to BE AS ALERT AS YOU SHOULD BE when returning to JFK after a LGB turn. That is stupid. You will fall asleep at the wheel (or stick in your case) and you will hit the hotel on final for the VOR 13L. You will. Nose dive in. And your Captain or FO will be asleep too or a zombie. Throw some bad weather in there, and it will make it worse. You will line up and land on the oval at the Aquaduct race track.

Get re-married? What? You are clueless. I was joking with that "drivel" I was talking about. If you had a sense of humor you would have caught that. You don't. Ex Navy? I thought so. The 5000 mark post was a joke, and I was making fun of myself. I thought it was amazing that I even got there. I could explain more to you, but you aren't worth it.

Time to get a life, eh? You too pal.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

This is why you don't see such a public outrage at the payrates on the E190 by JB crews. Most figure they will be on the aircraft (as captain) a maximum of 3-4 years before they can hold a line on the Airbus (as captain) with better pay. I could take your statement highlighted in red and apply the same thinking to JB. "I will be able to make up for the lower pay by getting a quick upgrade".

I know you've been vocal about JB being non-union and I'd like to make an observation. Not until growth slows significantly will we see a union. Management is dangling a carrot in front of us in the form of a rather quick upgrade on the A320. Once we start seeing 3 year E190 FO's, then we might see some union action. Once we start seeing those 10+ year E190 captains making less than a Horizon pilot, then we might see some union action. A union vote at this time would be a waste of resources because it wouldn't pass. Now, if JB ponies up and starts paying more on the E190 (like many have speculated based on A320 pay history) then they can hold off a union. To those that think the E190 pay will increase to something respectable, I'll believe it when I see it. I think the pay increase on the A320 was due, in large part, to retain pilots. It was offered at a time when pilots were leaving to go to AA, DL and NW. In light of September 11th, I applaud JB management for keeping the pay raise.

I'd also like to know how long Delta was operating before their pilots voted in a union. Same goes for UA, AA, NW, US, CO1 and CO2, America West (wasn't it something like 10 or 11 years there? Even at Emery where we were treated like crap it took 5 or 6 years. BTW...ALPA did one heck of a screw job on the EWA pilots. ALPA has little concern for the smaller pilot groups because spending tons of money to protect them doesn't pay off (in their mind).

Lastly, General Lee...please don't paint the JB guys with such a broad brush. Many of us dislike the transcon turns and E190 pay. Personally, I question the safety aspect of a transcon turn when the weather is down. Personally, I think the rates on the E190 are low. However, I like my job and I intend to keep it. I will schmooze the customers and fly the plane the way they want me to, but at the end of the day it is still just a job. Days off and a paycheck. I've been at too many airlines to get a hard-on about this one too. Maybe I'll get that hard-on when I turn 60! Something for my wife to look forward to...or be scared of!!!

Cheers!

GP

GP,

I like your style. I like how you logically answer some of my questions and actually use reason. That is mighty civil of you, unlike your buddy here B6guy. Hopefully you don't have to fly with a pill like that too often.

I don't really know when the DL pilots started with ALPA, but it was before my time. I started in '96, and I have seen some ups and downs. (9-11 being the largest down I have ever seen) I hope you guys eventually get some sort of protection and a collective bargaining unit to make sure you do get what you deserve, and not what JB thinks you deserve. Your airline started fresh, with new payscales and year 1 longevity, and that is for every type of employee. That made it easier for you to weather 9-11 and the aftermath, since your costs weren't as high as the legacies. That fact will help you stay around probably.

I am glad you are against the transcon turns deal. You can see along with every other sane person that it would be dangerous and foolish to try a two man crew for over 10 hours, returning to possible bad weather in NY. IF you have 3 pilots that would rotate, that might be fine---we do that to Aruba sometimes and some Carribbean islands. That gives you the chance to rest and get some shut eye. But, the company doesn't want that extra expense. IF it were up to B6guy, you would be doing those turns, and he would marry his sister. He might as well change all of the rules. I am also glad you see the E190 rates the way they are, very low for a 100 seat aircraft. Sure it is cautious for your management crew, but it also a slap in your face. They can't afford an extra $10 or $20 an hour to show you that you are special and deserve a descent wage? You supposedly made it to the top (JB) and you get paid less than some 50 seater airlines? Come on. JBguy doesn't mind, though.

I appreciate you writing in a civil manner and bringing on a good debate. Take care.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Hey General.....



Refresh my short memory please................was it not motha delta that started the advent and pheonomenal growth of regional jets at the expense of mainline jobs?

I think we can all give at least a casual head nod to jetBlue management for not outsourcing their E190 to "jetBlue Connection"

Once the economics for this brand new a/c are in and IF jetBlue is still making a profit with them....then you can complain about pay rates! Until then please put those stones down since the glass walls in our "legacy house" are extremely fragil these days!

Wait, we weren't on the same list (or even the same airline). You guys are on the same list. We didn't even own ASA or Comair back then when the RJs took off. You guys on the JB airbi are not putting up a fight for your own future pilots. Big difference. Also, the RJ was an improvement over the props, and at the time didn't seem like a bad idea, especially with business travelers who didn't like props. Now, business travellers don't like RJs when they can take a LCC mainline plane instead. The E190 is not an RJ, and the crews shouldn't be paid like they fly one. You should know that. I think it is great JB is getting 100 seaters. Frontier has a 100 seater in the A318.(they have 7 currently) I don't think they make the JB E190 rates on that, do they? (12 year Capt is $157 an hour, and 12 year FO is $94 an hour---higher than your 12 year Captain rates on the E190) Are they doing better than you? They are a LCC too, and use your LiveTV also.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[TheXmanz]

Junk Pay

$89 per hour for the E190 after 12 years sucks bad enough, but its more like $79 per hour since JB has only been around a few...What where you guys thinking when you agreed to that? Just curious. A successful company agreeing to something like that, must be a very large carrot your CEO dangled in front of you guys!

 

[General Lee]

$89 per hour for the E190 after 12 years sucks bad enough, but its more like $79 per hour since JB has only been around a few...What where you guys thinking when you agreed to that? Just curious. A successful company agreeing to something like that, must be a very large carrot your CEO dangled in front of you guys!

He didn't even have to dangle his dingle, he JUST DID IT, and they TOOK IT. (And they weren't even under the threat of bankruptcy)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[klhoard]

$89 per hour for the E190 after 12 years sucks bad enough, but its more like $79 per hour since JB has only been around a few...What where you guys thinking when you agreed to that? Just curious. A successful company agreeing to something like that, must be a very large carrot your CEO dangled in front of you guys!

.
.
.
The JB guys don't have access to the word "agreement".
.
.
.

 

[AA717driver]

Just a small correction: APA turned down the Industry Leading contract offered in 2000-2001 because it included "baseball-style arbitration". That's a "winner-take-all" proposition.

There isn't an hourly rate high enough to entice me to agree to give THAT to AMR.TC

 

[elag777]

Let me guess, you didn't say anything because your 5 year "interview" was coming up? No union, no protection. They have learned how to shut you guys up----a 5 year interview...... You may care about the rates, but you are too scared to speak up. So, instead, you put your efforts into something better for the rest of us------TRANSCON TURNS. I can't wait to do JFK-LAX-JFK in one day. Maybe I could catch a good nap on the autoland back into JFK in the FOG. Next thing you will want is to marry your SISTER. Thanks a lot. Don't choke on the blue Kool-aid. Breathe in, breathe out.


Bye Bye--General Lee

OMG! A five year interview, no way! how could I have been so blind? and all the payments on the Airbus fleet are due by Friday! Please....