Miracle on the Hudson: brought to you by Union workers

[realmanofgenius]

NO, the miracle on the hudson was brought to you by two geese wearing turbins on their head. there is this chain email I just got and there is a picture . it is plain as day. what more proof do you need?

I wonder if there is a sleeper cel of them at AFLAC headquarters.

 

[Linedriver]

Nice try, but no. SWAPA enjoys a very unique managment. SWA actually views, over the last decades, unions as partners in thier business model.

Good post Rez. You make some good arguments but let me ask you something. I didn't mean for my comments to come off as self serving but...why is ALPA there? It's a service entity - a service entity for the pilots.

ALPA is to assist us and represent us for OUR benefit. Really. I think that concept is missed by most. So the "I" or "me" is not the wrong point of view.

Also, if SWA sees the need in ALPA but on a contract basis, that means something. Dont you think? I know ALPA is everywhere and does a lot of stuff but isn't that kind of like extra fluff? In my opinion it's like the other 450 channels on cable that I don't watch and have to purchase so I can get the 10-20 channels I do watch.

If ALPA safety programs, though well intended and at our expense, dwarf SWAPA safety programs and both carriers enjoy fantastic safety records, who has won? In my opinion it is the union that was more strategic with their resources.

Look at it this way and it can be open for discussion. But if you view ALPA as a service and you purchased that service for 30 million a year, shouldn't you expect more than that in return? If not it's just a poor investment of resources.

Look, you seem to be very involved in ALPA and better connected - I think that is great. Maybe YOU are in the position to steer some thinking or challenge antiquated beliefs.

There is always a better way.

 

[Linedriver]

I'm trying to steer through your self-contradiction and find the logic. Either you are expecting to have a perfect, mistake-free career and feel you don't need the "protection," or you realize that pilots are human, make mistakes and need representation before management -- who'll usually sell you down the river to avoid enforecement against the company -- and the FAA.

Unions can't do much in the face of recession, terrorist attacks, criminal management, and low-cost pilots undercutting union wages, but they are better than the alternative.

I'll help you prove your point:
With the exception of JB and Skywest, name another non-union airline -- in the entire history of the commercial airline industry -- that has had better pay and QOL for their pilots than their union counterparts.

Ok, I can see how you might think my comments contridict. So I will re-word.

Of the pilots who voted for ALPA, what do you think was their motivating factor? Pay protection or job protection?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Yet all I read is you complaining about ALPA. So what is it with you?

Because Rez...you have the Cheerleaders at carriers like AirTran pedaling their BS about "Vote ALPA on board...it'll cure what ails Ya" ALPA isn't the be all, end all the cheerleaders claim it to be.

Whos will? Your will? Hardly.. you are not even an ALPA pilot yet you feel you have the knowledge to speak against the orgainzation.

Would you say it's better to bitch on the boards here...or going to work for an ALPA carrier (knowing full well what I'm getting into) and bitching in the cockpit?

Of all the concessionary agreements during the BK era, ALPA has done exactly what the membership has asked

The MEC's at each carrier asked the pilots how they wanted to deal with the BK era. The negotiating committee followed the guidance and then but the TA out to vote... the membership then voted and the TA was ratified....

What is your problem?

Do you have voting percentages for those concessionary agreements? What roll did Woerth's "Live to Fight Another Day" slogan play?

Sounds like you have a problem with companies. Why hate ALPA?

Nice twist, but no. I'm addressing your whole "selfless" approach and pointing out that personal self-interest can be a good thing. You speak of people like myself as being "Selfish" I'm just pointing out that it can be a good thing*

Again.. nothing about unions... so your real problem is with poor companies and not ALPA........

Not so fast. Nothing about Unions because I was again addressing your issue with "Selfish Pilots"
My point is that this collective interest you speak breaks down to nothing more than self interest which you bash.

But it seems you have disillsions abot your owm capabilities... I mean, what do you do to better your pilot group at RAH?

Each day I show up to work, I do the best I can in an effort to help my company grow and prosper.

You are wrong about safety. Post facts to prove your belief is real........

And ALPA had ZERO to do with this...

http://brsparachutes.com/default.aspx

There are fiancial incntives for improving safety...it's a great selling point. Today, there is too much at risk for a huge company like Boeing to try and cut corners (intentionally)

Sadlly, as has always been the case, there always will be certain safety items that are added after the fact.

So, if money is priority it seems you have a problem with the profit generator.... ie companies.......

I have an issue with the companies, in part. I also have an issue with ALPA, in part.

Yet you do nothing....but complain on FI about ALPA, or which you are not a member.......

And what of those complaing who are ALPA members? Are their grievances not valid because it's FI?

Many union issues are discussed on the major and regional boards... the JBPA for example... get real....

My thread isn't airline specific...it covers all of the pilot groups. and their concern for ALPA Staffer pay. It seems to be a big enough issue that ALPA had to form a committee on it and write an article about it. Since it does address all of ALPA, I figured it would be better suited under the general Union section.

Next week, I'll post my article about Comair's Merger Assesment Fee and the +40% of CMR pilots in bad standing with ALPA under the Regional boards.

Look at the hourly rates between the two contracts and then look at the profit margins during the time the contracts were awarded... nice try with the SWAPA/UAL....

Both Unions were up against different opponents...your rates/profit margin comarison go out the window at that point.











*in moderation

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Because Rez...you have the Cheerleaders at carriers like AirTran pedaling their BS about "Vote ALPA on board...it'll cure what ails Ya" ALPA isn't the be all, end all the cheerleaders claim it to be.

Doubt it.... it seems that most pilots at FL are in favor of ALPA..... who is saying ALPA is the end all?

Would you say it's better to bitch on the boards here...or going to work for an ALPA carrier (knowing full well what I'm getting into) and bitching in the cockpit?

neither, I think pilots should man up at any carrier they are at, volunteer to make the place better than the found it....

Expecting others to do for you what you are unwilling to do for yourself is weak...

Do you have voting percentages for those concessionary agreements? What roll did Woerth's "Live to Fight Another Day" slogan play?

typical comment of yours when you have nothing to offer... the ratified concessionary TAs are enough.

Nice twist, but no. I'm addressing your whole "selfless" approach and pointing out that personal self-interest can be a good thing. You speak of people like myself as being "Selfish" I'm just pointing out that it can be a good thing*

Problem with your failed logic is currently pilots like you and a majority of all pilots operate off self interest... that is what makes union representation weak.

Most pilots think they are a Prima Donna A-Rod and ALPA is there personal Boras.

Not so fast. Nothing about Unions because I was again addressing your issue with "Selfish Pilots"
My point is that this collective interest you speak breaks down to nothing more than self interest which you bash.

Am I wrong that you are a 20 something GEN XYZ type?

Each day I show up to work, I do the best I can in an effort to help my company grow and prosper.

Does that mean stepping on your fellow pilots back to do it? Do you know how to help your company grow and defend the profession?

And ALPA had ZERO to do with this...

http://brsparachutes.com/default.aspx

There are fiancial incntives for improving safety...it's a great selling point. Today, there is too much at risk for a huge company like Boeing to try and cut corners (intentionally)

ALPA never intended to have anything to do with that....

Rather read this:

“Pilot Assistance: Do we even need it today?”​

http://www.ntsb.gov/speeches/sumwalt/rls070411.htm

Sadlly, as has always been the case, there always will be certain safety items that are added after the fact.

I have an issue with the companies, in part. I also have an issue with ALPA, in part.

You have no issue with ALPA b/c you are not an ALPA member. ALPA has no obligation to you. Yet you still benefit from the DAL pilots 30MM in dues.

And what of those complaing who are ALPA members? Are their grievances not valid because it's FI?

No. Who are they but monikers. A valid grievance can be done by communicating ones elected officials.

My thread isn't airline specific...it covers all of the pilot groups. and their concern for ALPA Staffer pay. It seems to be a big enough issue that ALPA had to form a committee on it and write an article about it. Since it does address all of ALPA, I figured it would be better suited under the general Union section.

Overall staff pay has been reduced via lay offs. Of course that means resources are lost...

Next week, I'll post my article about Comair's Merger Assesment Fee and the +40% of CMR pilots in bad standing with ALPA under the Regional boards.

Can't wait...

Both Unions were up against different opponents...your rates/profit margin comarison go out the window at that point.

Your opinion..










*in moderation[/quote]

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Remarks of
Robert Sumwalt, Vice Chairman
National Transportation Safety Board
to the Air Line Pilots Association
International Pilots Assistance Forum
April 11, 2007
Denver, Colorado
“Pilot Assistance: Do we even need it today?”​

It is absolutely great to be here with a group of dedicated people who devote their time to help others in the profession.
When I received the ALPA Air Safety Award, I said something that I believed then, and something that I believe now – ALPA work is important, it does make a difference, it does matter and it does save lives.
Jeff, I applaud your efforts to organize this event, which by all measures, appears to be a huge success. I know pulling it together has been a lot of work for many people, especially the ALPA staff.
If you are like me, you probably find tremendous value networking and having sidebar conversations in the hallways.
ALPA’s Administrative Manual says that the ALPA Pilot Assistance Committee “will provide guidance and assistance to any pilot having difficulty in any aspect of their professional or personal life which may affect their ability to safely operate an airplane.”
Well, just to be provocative, I have titled this presentation: “Pilot Assistance: Do we even need it today?” The answer to that rhetorical question is…, well, I’ll answer that in a few minutes.
In attempting to answer that question, let’s briefly discuss each of the disciplines of ALPA’s Pilot Assistance Committee.
Critical Incident Response Program
First, CIRP. I first met Mimi Tompkins at the ALPA air safety forum in 1991. She and Dr. Don Hudson had a panel where Mimi stood up in front of about 350 strangers and told of the trauma that she experienced following her 1988 accident. As I listened to her I turned to the person next to me and said, “We must never allow this to happen to another of our members.” And, as Mimi stepped off the stage, I introduced myself and told her that I wanted to help her develop a program to help prevent the very trauma that she endured.
We had a slow start, but we had great support and encouragement from former Professional Standards Chairmen Captain Jim McIntyre and Bob Lynch and from Dr. Don Hudson.
I knew that we needed to do something, but couldn’t quite figure out what we needed. It was sometime later that Mimi and I learned that Captain Alan Campbell of Delta was developing such a program for the Delta pilot group.
For the next several months, the three of us worked to develop a program and in May 1994 the ALPA Executive Board unanimously passed a resolution to form the ALPA Critical Incident Response Program.
As Jan Steenblik wrote a few years ago in Air Line Pilot, ALPA’s CIRP is about “being there for fellow pilots, lending an ear - and a helping hand – when bad stuff happens.”
What became very evident through the process of building this program was the need for this type of program.
Dr. Hudson told us that of those ALPA crew members who contacted the ALPA Aeromedical Office following a critical incident/accident, approximately 70 percent of those who received proper treatment continued their aviation careers, but of those who did not receive treatment, approximately 60 to 70 percent left their aviation careers within two years of the critical incident.
Some committed suicide.
Simply put, CIRP helps save lives.
Professional Standards
I had barely 100 hours in my logbook in October 1974, when the NTSB wrote a recommendation letter to the FAA. This letter was following a CFIT accident a year earlier where a Texas International Airlines Convair 600 crashed into the Black Fork Mountain in Arkansas. The crew deviated some 80 miles off course for thunderstorms and were trying to do it on a VFR flight plan.
About 12 minutes before impact, the crew initiated a descent from 3000 feet. The First Officer stated, “I sure wish I know where… we were.”
A few minutes later he said, “Paining ridges and everything else, boss, and I’m not familiar with the terrain.”
When the captain made the decision to descend to 2000 feet msl, the First Officer continued to express his doubts about terrain clearance. “Man, I wish I knew where we were so we’d have some idea of the general terrain around this place.”
The First Office then located their approximate position on a chart. The CVR ended on an ominous note with the FO stating, “the minimum enroute altitude here is forty-four hun…”
The aircraft struck terrain about 600 feet below the ridgeline.
Although the Safety Board’s October 1974 recommendation letter was in response to this accident, it also referenced other accidents where the Safety Board cited “serious lapses in expected professional conduct” of pilots.
The letter said: “History has proved that neither increased flight checks nor new regulations, alone, will improve safety; nor will these actions ensure professional performance. Yet, professionalism is fundamental to safe operations in civil aviation.”
The Safety Board went on to state: “The high standards of professionalism possessed by most pilots must be instilled in all pilots. Professional standards committees should be able to assist substantially in this regard.”
With that, in 1974 the Safety Board recommended that pilot associations form new, and regenerate old, professional standards committees to promote crew discipline and professionalism.
Through the years, ALPA’s professional standards program has had many successes. That said, those of us who consider ourselves professionals were quite disappointed as details emerged concerning October 2004 Pinnacle Airlines flight 3701.
In January of this year the Safety Board determined probable cause of that accident to be, in part, “the pilots’ unprofessional behavior, deviation from standard operating procedures and poor airmanship, which resulted in an in-flight emergency from which they were unable to recover…”
For the record, I voted, along with my four colleagues on the Board, to adopt that language. To be clear, my obligation as a Board Member if to call it the way I see it, even when I don’t like what I see.
Not unlike 1974 recommendation letter, our recommendation letter for the Pinnacle accident referenced six fairly recent accidents in which the board cited the “lack of cockpit discipline and adherence to standard operating procedures.”
The report said that it is clear that “most pilots conduct flight operations with a high degree of professionalism. Nevertheless, a problem still exists in the aviation industry with some pilots acting unprofessionally and not adhering to standard operating procedures, as demonstrated by recent accidents…”
Here is the part of the Safety Recommendation that applies directly to you: “Because pilot unions have expertise in safety, training, and operations and have a vested interest in advancing professional standards among the pilots they represent, these groups are well positioned to take a leadership role to establish new educations approaches for reinforcing professionalism in the aviation industry.”
The Safety Board issued Recommendation A-07-8, which called for the FAA to “work with pilot associations to develop a specific program of education for air carrier pilots that addresses professional standards and their role in ensuring safety of flight. This program should include associated guidance information and references to recent accidents involving pilots acting unprofessionally or not following standard operating procedures.”
So, yes, it appears that in spite of a very successful professional standards program over the years, they are still vitally needed.
The ALPA administrative manual says that ALPA supports the highest standards of professional conduct among its members and I urge you to continue your efforts here.
People die when professionalism is left at the gate.​

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

HIMS
The ALPA Code of Ethics and Cannons state that an airline pilot “will realize that nothing more certainly fosters prejudices against and deprives the profession of its high public esteem and confidence than do breaches in the use of alcohol.”
As I was preparing this speech I read an article that mentioned an airline pilot – in this case a pilot who was flying for a very large non-ALPA airline – who had been arrested in uniform, going through security, on his way to his 777. His BAC was reportedly 6 times the legal limit.
The entire profession cringes when we hear stories like this. The piloting community is the brunt of jokes on Letterman and Leno. But, unfortunately, it is not a joke. It is a serious problem that must be addressed.
ALPA has not put its head in the sand on this issue. For over 30 years, with the cooperation of the FAA and almost all the airlines in North America, thousands of airline pilots have been successfully treated for alcoholism and able to return to their flying careers through the HIMS program.
It is a success story that must continue. I suspect that with increased pressures brought on by airline financial difficulties, we have increased the potential for emotional difficulties with employees. And, of course, some turn to alcohol to treat their problems.
So, HIMS is important. And it, too, saves lives.
Aeromedical
When I was an active ALPA member, I thought the ALPA Aeromedical Office was a great benefit. The primary benefit, of course, is that pilots can discuss health matters, in complete confidence, with a physician who knows and understands the professional aviator’s work environment and FAA regulations and policies. Their ultimate goal is to preserve both the pilot’s health and FAA medical certificate.
They receive over 300 calls each day.
A few years ago I received a phone call from “Tom,” a pilot for a corporate flight department. Tom was a good friend of mine and he confided in me that he and others suspected that one of their pilots was suicidal. Tom was calling to ask if I had any idea how to deal with this situation. Even though their company was not involved with ALPA, I knew that the physicians in the ALPA Aeromedical Office had knowledge in how to deal with such a situation. So, I suggested that Tom contact the experts here in Denver. He did and his suspicions were confirmed – the symptoms displayed by this pilot were indeed, consistent with someone contemplating suicide.
With that confirmation, that company was able to outline a plan to get the pilot help that was desperately needed. I think these actions literally saved his life.
Canadian Pilot Assistance
This program has been working well for a long time. When Alan, Mimi and I were working to form the ALPA CIRP, it was before the ALPA/CALPA merger. We turned to our brethren north of the border – those who at the time were active with CALPA’s Pilot Assistance Program – and asked for their assistance and counsel in developing our program. They were a big help to us.
So, this program, too, saves lives.
Conclusions
When I received the ALPA Air Safety Award in 2005 I cited words that are chiseled into the tombstone of Arthur Schindler. If you have seen the movie Schindler’s List or done any reading about the atrocities of the Nazi holocaust, you will recognize that Schindler was one who literally saved thousands from the death camps.
“And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world.”
As I went through each of the above-mentioned disciplines, I noted that they save lives. CIRP, Professional Standards, HIMS, Aeromedical and Pilot Assistance – they all have potential to save lives.

The work you are doing – it does save lives, and if you have saved just one life, it is as if you have saved an entire world.
So, yes, as I said at the beginning: ALPA work is important. It does matter, it does make a difference, and yes, it does save lives.
Now, back to that question - Pilot Assistance – Do We Even Need It Today? In case you haven’t figured it out by now, yes, we need it more now than ever.
ALPA is fortunate to have dedicated volunteers, staff and friends who are devoted to fulfilling this mission.
You are, as the slogan of this meeting says, “Meeting the challenge.”
Congratulations. Keep up the great work!
​

Speeches & Testimony


[SIZE=-1]NTSB Home | Contact Us | Search | About the NTSB | Policies and Notices | Related Sites [/SIZE]

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Good post Rez. You make some good arguments but let me ask you something. I didn't mean for my comments to come off as self serving but...why is ALPA there? It's a service entity - a service entity for the pilots.

I disagree. ALPA is the car, map, gas, oil, etc... however, WE have to drive the car. ALPA is a resource not a service.

And this is a problem ALPA has.... ALPA has is the past, going for the quick sale and buy in during pilot indoc, that ALPA is going to do all these great things for pilots. It is a poor tactic. Here is a genuine question....

Why do you believe ALPA is a service?

ALPA is to assist us and represent us for OUR benefit. Really. I think that concept is missed by most. So the "I" or "me" is not the wrong point of view.

ALPA, unions really, are democracies like the US gov't. Gov't service is voluntary. No one forces citizens to serve in a democracy.

No one forces ALPA volunteers to serve. Sure many volunteers in both entities volunteer for selfish reasons or gains...

However, we are such a service economy driven society of consumers that we expect our democracies (churches, gov't, unions, HOAs, non profits, etc) to function like business. I pay money therefore I want 100% satisfaction.

We pay dues, we pay taxes. That isn't a business contract or agreement.

And do we want a business agreement with our union or gov't? (the whole argument against privatization). If ALPA was contracted out to a private company (administrator) your representational rights would decrease significantly.

It is bad enough that ALPA pilots forfeit representation by not voting, not attending LEC meetings and sending reps to the BOD.

Representation erodes rights. Only when ALL citizens or members volunteer at some level some of the time will we gain better a union (or govt).

If ALPA or unions were contracted out to a administrator, they would simply follow policy. There would be no reason to have voting or LEC meetings. Do you have rights in the corporate world? Very little. You follow company policy and if you don't like it you can accept it of leave. There is no in between except govt law.

Also, if SWA sees the need in ALPA but on a contract basis, that means something. Don't you think? I know ALPA is everywhere and does a lot of stuff but isn't that kind of like extra fluff? In my opinion it's like the other 450 channels on cable that I don't watch and have to purchase so I can get the 10-20 channels I do watch.

I think the question is, why don't you value the fluff? Just ensure that you understand the fluff and what it does.

IOW, do you think there are gov't programs that you don't know about but benefit from? Sure there are gov't programs that are fluff, but don't you think they are police and fire programs you don't know about that are good? I mean we expect the fire and police to do thier job, but do we know HOW they do their job?

If ALPA safety programs, though well intended and at our expense, dwarf SWAPA safety programs and both carriers enjoy fantastic safety records, who has won? In my opinion it is the union that was more strategic with their resources.

Does SWAPA testify before congress on safety issues? Of course safety often must be legislated because companies can't be trusted to implement safety or compete without it being legislated.....

Look at it this way and it can be open for discussion. But if you view ALPA as a service and you purchased that service for 30 million a year, shouldn't you expect more than that in return? If not it's just a poor investment of resources.

It depends on what you value. I value the professional status that ALPA promotes through its Safety and Engineering dept.

Look, ALPA doesn't have to have a Safety and Engineering Dept., however, that is what makes the pilot job a profession. If our pilot unions just negotiated for wages, then we would be no different that any other unions, the UAW for example. However, since we seek to improve the safety of the air travel on our own accord and our own resources (volunteerism and financial) we are therefore functioning in the professional realm.

An in depth understanding of professionalism is needed here...

Because in fact, too many pilots become Air Line pilots for the personal gain. What is in it for them. That is why they hate ALPA. They didn't join ALPA to pay dues into some safety study or to testify infront off Congress.

They became pilots for days off and money. I suggest their expectations are wrong and the onus is on them.

Look, you seem to be very involved in ALPA and better connected - I think that is great. Maybe YOU are in the position to steer some thinking or challenge antiquated beliefs.

There is always a better way.

There is a better way. ALPA has a plenty of problems. Despite a dwindling budget, many volunteers are still working to update the union to meet the demands of its members.

Look, this was once a proud profession. (I still have pride in it...). Well, what made it proud? Gov't? Corporations?

Many jaded ALPA pilots will say "this once proud union".....

Well what made the union proud? What made the profession proud? If we want to re-brand ALPA and call it something else... fine, lets go for it... but do you think a fresh paint job on a broken model is going to change much?

Only until each off us take an ownership in the profession.... every Air Line Pilot doing some level of work some of the time.... will we regain our pride...

 

[JungleJett]

Wow....I am not sure I have ever seen anyone buy into such propaganda.

Well...at least not in decades.

 

[stlflyguy]

The former TWA pilots wished ALPA was there for them.

stlflyguy

 

[Linedriver]

Why do you believe ALPA is a service?

I think ALPA is a service because I give them consideration in the form of dues. Consideration for representation. ALPA wouldn't exist if it weren't for airline pilots, thus the pilots MUST be the benifactor.

I understand what you are saying about relating ALPA and government but that is a falicy. Our nations government was originally organized to represent the people. A concept long since distorted. Taxes were originally imposed to finance a war. Today, our government has become our countrys largest bank. I say that to say that our government has lost it's vision, just like ALPA. They have grown accustom to the huge revenue generated by dues that they think their own existance is a foregone conclusion. It's like they think it's their right to represent us. I don't even have a choice to be a member of ALPA or not. Well, I can choose not to be a member but I still have to pay a fee equal to the amount of dues so I might as well play.

I have always wanted to be an airline pilot, for several reasons. But when my neighbors kid, an enterprising young man, can make more with his yard service than I can my first couple of years at a major airline, something is wrong and I think that is a core issue with the pride, or lack of it, in todays pilots. And guess what, there is something to that.

I work for money. I have invested much financially and emotionally, just like everyone else, to get here and it just makes a guy sit up and question just what the hell is going on. Why are peoples compensation flexible when oil isn't? Why?

Getting a little off subject but bottom line. I think you and I are not that different in our thinking, just about how to go about fixing a broken, whatever. I don't buy into all the dress-up, hype going on at ALPA; I think a lot of it's just a show. I am more of a target the things that work kind of guy.

So I will leave it at that.

 

[pipe]

I disagree. ALPA is the car, map, gas, oil, etc... however, WE have to drive the car. ALPA is a resource not a service.

Good analogy, I couldn't agree more. Now mine.

When we at TWA were asked to make the car payment, we made it. When it needed maintenance, we maintained it. When we asked to use the car, Duane told us to pound sand because he might have a date with 10,000 chicks that night (APA) (by the way, they didn't want anything to do with him -- I guess they weren't into bald dudes).

PIPE

 

[CopilotDoug]

Doubt it..... it seems that most pilots at FL are in favor of ALPA...

Is that a "most" of the roughly 35% who participate?

who is saying ALPA is the end all?

PCL...to be precise.

typical comment of yours when you have nothing to offer... the ratified concessionary TAs are enough.

Percentages are important. Did 35% of the pilot group vote? Or did 80% vote?

neither, I think pilots should man up at any carrier they are at, volunteer to make the place better than the found it...

It's also possible to make the place better without volunteering.

Expecting others to do for you what you are unwilling to do for yourself is weak...

On this we agree. How we go about it is where we disagree. Fair enough? I'll wholeheartedly reject any implication there might be that I "expect others to do for me something I am not willing to do myself" however.

Problem with your failed logic is currently pilots like you and a majority of all pilots operate off self interest... that is what makes union representation weak...

ALPA has played their role in forming an apathetic membership.

Most pilots think they are a Prima Donna A-Rod and ALPA is there personal Boras.

So if that's the case...why do you expect your fellow pilots to be something they are not?

Does that mean stepping on your fellow pilots back to do it? Do you know how to help your company grow and defend the profession?

That depends...are all airlines entitled to growth?

ALPA never intended to have anything to do with that...

Nor did a Union, for that matter. Just an example that Safety is Self Sustainable at this point.

Rather read this:
“Pilot Assistance: Do we even need it today?”
http://www.ntsb.gov/speeches/sumwalt/rls070411.htm

Read it.

Yet you still benefit from the DAL pilots 30MM in dues.

I love free milk...

No. Who are they but monikers. A valid grievance can be done by communicating ones elected officials.

Good point. FI is not a good resource to assist in educating fellow pilots with concerns.

Overall staff pay has been reduced via lay offs.

Sounds like a start!

Your opinion...

And I'm entitled to it. And likewise...you're entitled to yours.

 

[Turtle21]

If ALPA is so damn good, how come after 12 pages not one person is convinced to send them more money to become better? (Rez and 128 don't count. They have always sent ALPA extra money).

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I think ALPA is a service because I give them consideration in the form of dues. Consideration for representation. ALPA wouldn't exist if it weren't for airline pilots, thus the pilots MUST be the benifactor.

representation is via democracy. Not money. If you increased dues to ALPA would that increase effectiveness?

Or would active participation of most if not all members increase effectiveness.

Look at it this way.... during contract negotiations, you and your pilot group wants a better contract. Do you give your union more money or do you picket and strike.

IOW, in your example, pilots wouldn't need to strike, they could just buy a new contract.

I understand what you are saying about relating ALPA and government but that is a falicy. Our nations government was originally organized to represent the people. A concept long since distorted. Taxes were originally imposed to finance a war. Today, our government has become our countrys largest bank. I say that to say that our government has lost it's vision, just like ALPA. They have grown accustom to the huge revenue generated by dues that they think their own existance is a foregone conclusion. It's like they think it's their right to represent us. I don't even have a choice to be a member of ALPA or not. Well, I can choose not to be a member but I still have to pay a fee equal to the amount of dues so I might as well play.

so what is the solution? If our govt and union democracy are fallacies how do we correct it? Money or participatory politics/democracy?

I have always wanted to be an airline pilot, for several reasons. But when my neighbors kid, an enterprising young man, can make more with his yard service than I can my first couple of years at a major airline, something is wrong and I think that is a core issue with the pride, or lack of it, in todays pilots. And guess what, there is something to that.

I don't think the grass is greener on the other side.

I work for money. I have invested much financially and emotionally, just like everyone else, to get here and it just makes a guy sit up and question just what the hell is going on. Why are peoples compensation flexible when oil isn't? Why?

Because pilots think ALPA is a service. They will not participate.

Getting a little off subject but bottom line. I think you and I are not that different in our thinking, just about how to go about fixing a broken, whatever. I don't buy into all the dress-up, hype going on at ALPA; I think a lot of it's just a show. I am more of a target the things that work kind of guy.

So I will leave it at that.

Unity and strength in numbers works. I've seen and history shows it. We've got to get off the consumerism mentality and on to participatory politics.

I suggest:

Consumed

and

Strong Democracy

both by Barber

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Is that a "most" of the roughly 35% who participate?

PCL...to be precise.

we will see.

Percentages are important. Did 35% of the pilot group vote? Or did 80% vote?

voting participation is always high when it directly effects a pilots wallet. Hence my observation that pilots are in this more for the money than the profession.

It's also possible to make the place better without volunteering.

Explain.

On this we agree. How we go about it is where we disagree. Fair enough? I'll wholeheartedly reject any implication there might be that I "expect others to do for me something I am not willing to do myself" however.

yet it is the truth....

ALPA has played their role in forming an apathetic membership.

Agreed... and it is the pilots responsibility to elect leaders that do not form apathy and it is pilots responsibility to not be apathetic themselves.

So if that's the case...why do you expect your fellow pilots to be something they are not?

Then why do they expect ALPA to be something it is not?

That depends...are all airlines entitled to growth?

Air Line Pilots do not run airlines. Pilots help their company grow by flying jets safely.

Nor did a Union, for that matter. Just an example that Safety is Self Sustainable at this point.

a poor example...

Read it.

Did you understand it?

I love free milk...

You flame hotter than a homo in SFO

Good point. FI is not a good resource to assist in educating fellow pilots with concerns.

you are learning....

Sounds like a start!

It's Friday night in SFO baby!

And I'm entitled to it. And likewise...you're entitled to yours.

Of course, however my opinion is based upon experience... yours is based upon ideology

 

[Linedriver]

Look at it this way.... during contract negotiations, you and your pilot group wants a better contract. Do you give your union more money or do you picket and strike.

so what is the solution? If our govt and union democracy are fallacies how do we correct it? Money or participatory politics/democracy?

Because pilots think ALPA is a service. They will not participate.

Wow! Ok, that statement speaks volumes to me. From that I see that you really buy in to the ALPA mentality and that reflects on the actual culture over there.

You can't run a business like that Rez. If you pay an employee a competitive wage to do a job, you shouldn't have to pay him more to do it right; or you shouldn't have to jump in there and help him to do it right either.

The statement you just made proves mine. ALPA thinks they deserve to exist and represent us. Let me ask you this. If ALPA realized there was an actual possibility that the pilots at a given airline could kick them out, would they try harder or decide to become more effective?

ALPA isn't government. There is nothing, absolutely nothing we can do about our government short of overthrowing it. ALPA however, can be fired or voted out. It is THAT easy.

Rez, honestly, you aren't seeing ALPA correctly. I don't know what else to tell you. There are a lot of pilots, like yourself, that are holding out for ALPA and right now are the majority. There is the next generation of pilots coming up and I think ALPA will get voted out eventually. These are competitive times and people are getting more educated and becoming less tolerant for ineffictiveness.

 

[Linedriver]

deleted

 

[CopilotDoug]

Explain.

It's the small stuff. Between legs, you can walk the concourse and help the little old lady find her gate. I watched an ExpressJet FO hop out of the cockpit after pulling to the gate and help the ramper bring planeside bags up to the jetway. Whether you're helping answer passenger concerns about a delay to a mechanical, or making a suggestion to a training captain while on a flight with him/her, there are plenty of ways to improve your work environment while on the clock. You may consider that "volunteering" but I consider it all part of the job.

Then why do they expect ALPA to be something it is not?

Sounds like the "issue" here is with the membership. They want something that ALPA can't provide.

Air Line Pilots do not run airlines. Pilots help their company grow by flying jets safely.

We know ALPA is run by people, and people make mistakes. Does having ALPA representation necessarily ensure that ALPA carrier 'A' won't step on ALPA carrier 'B'?

a poor example...

It's a good example. Had I chosen a safety advancement in the airline industry, there's a chance that an ALPA rep inserted himself among the crowd at a Press Statement regarding the new development and...voila...ALPA releases a news article regarding their involvement.

Did you understand it?

Yes.

You flame hotter than a homo in SFO

Couldn't pass on that opportunity. What is the objective here...to turn ALPA in to an industry wide Martyr? Build them up as an unsung hero?

I'll have to take your word on heat levels emitted by homos in SFO.

you are learning...

I was being sarcastic. While FI.com is 90% entertainment...it is also a medium where good ideas can be kicked around. Your CRM training says to use all available resources.

It's Friday night in SFO baby!

Sounds like you're looking forward to it.

Sorry...couldn't pass that one up!:laugh:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's the small stuff. Between legs, you can walk the concourse and help the little old lady find her gate. I watched an ExpressJet FO hop out of the cockpit after pulling to the gate and help the ramper bring planeside bags up to the jetway. Whether you're helping answer passenger concerns about a delay to a mechanical, or making a suggestion to a training captain while on a flight with him/her, there are plenty of ways to improve your work environment while on the clock. You may consider that "volunteering" but I consider it all part of the job.

What you do between your legs is your own business.

The above is standard stuff... many of us it do it...

I am talking about volunteering on a committee where real progress is made....

Sounds like the "issue" here is with the membership. They want something that ALPA can't provide.

So the question is.... are the memberrships expectations realistic...

We know ALPA is run by people, and people make mistakes. Does having ALPA representation necessarily ensure that ALPA carrier 'A' won't step on ALPA carrier 'B'?

Nope.

If carrier is A is ALPA and B is not, what does that mean?

It's a good example. Had I chosen a safety advancement in the airline industry, there's a chance that an ALPA rep inserted himself among the crowd at a Press Statement regarding the new development and...voila...ALPA releases a news article regarding their involvement.

And your opinion is based upon what?

Yes.

no

Couldn't pass on that opportunity. What is the objective here...to turn ALPA in to an industry wide Martyr? Build them up as an unsung hero?

Well I've meet a few flamers and I have always passed on the opportunity, but I understand the 20 something crowd rolls with homosexuality much more freely....


As far as ALPA, the goal is to make the profession better. That isn't necessarily money in your bank.

I'll have to take your word on heat levels emitted by homos in SFO.

My flame retardant suit disgusts them....

I was being sarcastic. While FI.com is 90% entertainment...it is also a medium where good ideas can be kicked around. Your CRM training says to use all available resources.

Yes, I have taken CRM.... have you?

Sounds like you're looking forward to it.

Sorry...couldn't pass that one up!:laugh:

I pass up Friday night in SFO everytime... what is it like?