Miracle on the Hudson: brought to you by Union workers

[Crzipilot]

I think that was his point. With PCL saying he doesn't mind ceo's making 100mill, while pilots make 16k. As long as Alpo survives and gets their money...it's all goooood....

 

[Linedriver]

Fellas, fellas listen.... Lets look at unions for what they really do for us. Really..

Bottom line, why do we have unions? It isn't to protect our work rules, they are given away by ALPA. It isn't for pay, that is taken away. The reason we have unions is to make it more difficult to get fired if we mess up. Period. The rest of the time it is just an expense we pay, forced to pay, for 'protection' however you want to define that.

Unions aren't necessary. And how effective are they really when it comes to something like a merger where the same entity represents both pilot groups?

In the end they try to justify their own existance and expense. You guys can argue this point back and forth, blah, blah, blah but in the end unions are just revenue generators for their own cause.

 

[JungleJett]

I've never hidden anything. In fact, I've always been completely open about it. Dumb decision a decade ago, didn't know any better, now regret it, and I speak out against it so today's newbies don't make the same mistake. Pretty simple, really.

Hmmm....the guy at the end.....??/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7U8LJyIBAU

 

[CFIT]

Fellas, fellas listen.... Lets look at unions for what they really do for us. Really..

Bottom line, why do we have unions? It isn't to protect our work rules, they are given away by ALPA. It isn't for pay, that is taken away. The reason we have unions is to make it more difficult to get fired if we mess up. Period. The rest of the time it is just an expense we pay, forced to pay, for 'protection' however you want to define that.

Unions aren't necessary. And how effective are they really when it comes to something like a merger where the same entity represents both pilot groups?

In the end they try to justify their own existance and expense. You guys can argue this point back and forth, blah, blah, blah but in the end unions are just revenue generators for their own cause.

100% accurate!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

100% accurate!

feel better?

 

[PCL_128]

Hmmm....the guy at the end.....??/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7U8LJyIBAU

Nope.

 

[JungleJett]

Nope.

But do you agree with what he said?

 

[ableone]

Fellas, fellas listen.... Lets look at unions for what they really do for us. Really..

Bottom line, why do we have unions? It isn't to protect our work rules, they are given away by ALPA. It isn't for pay, that is taken away. The reason we have unions is to make it more difficult to get fired if we mess up. Period. The rest of the time it is just an expense we pay, forced to pay, for 'protection' however you want to define that.

Unions aren't necessary. And how effective are they really when it comes to something like a merger where the same entity represents both pilot groups?

In the end they try to justify their own existance and expense. You guys can argue this point back and forth, blah, blah, blah but in the end unions are just revenue generators for their own cause.

Oh, so you are one of those (idiots)who believe that seniority is a right and that a company will hire, upgrade, downgrade and furlough utilizing seniority even if no union is on property.

No union means the pilot who won't write up discrepancies and is willing to carry airplanes will upgrade first and keep his job in a downturn.

The "merit" system is a dangerous place to fly airplanes.

You dismiss unions as an unnecessary anachronism but I bet you have never flown jets for a company that had no union and a "merit" system.

 

[merlindrvr88]

today

They were certainly successful at bailing out, but they haven't been successful at building a functioning union. Over 2,000 USAirways pilots still refuse to pay dues. Not a single representative has been elected from the West domiciles. uSAPa is a mess.

They'll be back in another year or so. Count on it.

who is your controller

 

[Linedriver]

Oh, so you are one of those (idiots)who believe that seniority is a right and that a company will hire, upgrade, downgrade and furlough utilizing seniority even if no union is on property.

No union means the pilot who won't write up discrepancies and is willing to carry airplanes will upgrade first and keep his job in a downturn.

The "merit" system is a dangerous place to fly airplanes.

You dismiss unions as an unnecessary anachronism but I bet you have never flown jets for a company that had no union and a "merit" system.

Because an individual has a differing opinion doesn't make him an idiot. That comment does however, reflect your mentality.

You don't need a union to have seniority. As for your other conclusions, I have flown jets in a non union company and we did a fine job. We wrote up the problems and helped each other out when we could.

We can represent ourselves more effectively as we have a vested interest in the outcome, unlike a third party. Save a lot of money in the meantime.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We can represent ourselves more effectively as we have a vested interest in the outcome, unlike a third party. Save a lot of money in the meantime.

Can you provide details.... how do you do this?

 

[PCL_128]

But do you agree with what he said?

Absolutely not.

 

[JungleJett]

Can you provide details.... how do you do this?

Others have chosen to drive their own boat with in house unions....and done as well if not better than any ALPA represented group.

But then again...maybe the poster is talking about no union at all...as much as I think ALPA is useless, and I do, unions have their place.

 

[Huck]

You see, if ALPA hadn't been involved in all the givebacks and featherbedding their own pockets, Capt. Sully may have actually been able to comfortable retire early, and enjoy the twilight of his career, not slogging around the NE during winter, etc etc.
]
So with the removal of pensions, pay cuts, QOL cuts and such, along with the chance to work 5 extra years to make up those give backs, ALPA should be congradulated for keeping these senior airman in the air....

Bingo.

 

[Linedriver]

Can you provide details.... how do you do this?

Look at Southwest. They do just fine representing their own pilot group. They do have a union but it is made up of their own pilots and there is no question where their loyalties are.

Do you know that just the DL/NWA pilot group pays in around 30 million annually, or more, to ALPA. 30 million dollars! Now that's some expensive representation. I'm sure there are financials for public viewing but why does it take that?

It shouldn't take that. That kind of funding, in my opinion, is a total joke, especially in light of ALPA's effectiveness.

We live in a time of extreme inefficiencies. Its in our government, Wall Street and throughout big business and it all ends up coming out of the same pockets, yours and mine. More people should question these important issues instead of just going with the flow.

It's kind of like having blind faith in all doctors. The older you get and the more health issues you face you lose that blind faith and you start looking for the good one.

Is ALPA the best we can do? Hardly.

I am constantly looking for a better, more effficient way to run my own household/business. Do you think ALPA is thinking of ways to save us anything? And even if there was a surplus on their side do you think we would get it back? No, they would just spend it because we aren't their only interest - they wouldn't know who to give it to.

Hanging with the status quo doesn't stimulate any thinking at all.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Look at Southwest. They do just fine representing their own pilot group. They do have a union but it is made up of their own pilots and there is no question where their loyalties are.

Do you know that just the DL/NWA pilot group pays in around 30 million annually, or more, to ALPA. 30 million dollars! Now that's some expensive representation. I'm sure there are financials for public viewing but why does it take that?

It shouldn't take that. That kind of funding, in my opinion, is a total joke, especially in light of ALPA's effectiveness.

We live in a time of extreme inefficiencies. Its in our government, Wall Street and throughout big business and it all ends up coming out of the same pockets, yours and mine. More people should question these important issues instead of just going with the flow.

It's kind of like having blind faith in all doctors. The older you get and the more health issues you face you lose that blind faith and you start looking for the good one.

Is ALPA the best we can do? Hardly.

I am constantly looking for a better, more effficient way to run my own household/business. Do you think ALPA is thinking of ways to save us anything? And even if there was a surplus on their side do you think we would get it back? No, they would just spend it because we aren't their only interest - they wouldn't know who to give it to.

Hanging with the status quo doesn't stimulate any thinking at all.

Well said, LineDriver

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Look at Southwest. They do just fine representing their own pilot group. They do have a union but it is made up of their own pilots and there is no question where their loyalties are.

Nice try, but no. SWAPA enjoys a very unique managment. SWA actually views, over the last decades, unions as partners in thier business model.

You can't blame ALPA because Tilton, Steenland [and Neeleman] are anti union.

In addition, SWAPA pays ALPA for services they cannot provide on thier own. Simply put, SWAPA, APA, IPA, they are fine unions, but they don't take on the global issues. They build a small sandbox to manage. Small local issues for a couple off thousand pilots are easy to control and manage as opposed to global international issues for 100,000s of pilots.

ALPA is a part of Int'l Federation of Air Line Pilots.

ALPA has an office at ICAO.

Do you know that just the DL/NWA pilot group pays in around 30 million annually, or more, to ALPA. 30 million dollars! Now that's some expensive representation. I'm sure there are financials for public viewing but why does it take that?

What does SWAPA do for Safety and Engineering? Are they working NAS mod? Runway safety? The list goes on.... Sure they might be involved but they don't have the money to back up spearheading involvement.

SWAPA is a part of CAPA, but I haven't seen much of what they do. (I am on the email list). ALPA has had Wash DC presence since 1931.

Your problem when you see that 30MM value, is you wonder why there isn't direct individual benefit.

There is also collective benefit, of participating in gov't and industry programs.

What is SWAPA, IPA and APA doing to promote SMS?

It shouldn't take that. That kind of funding, in my opinion, is a total joke, especially in light of ALPA's effectiveness.

Again, you are looking at it in terms of 'what is in it for me?"

ALPA also has a major contingency fund or MCF. In the past, during the Lorenzo era, the EAL MEC ran short of funds and there was no support.... The MCF was created to support pilot groups when they have to deal with NON SWA management types like a Lorenzo.

A couple of yearrs ago, ALPA provided Pinnacle pilots 2MM in support of a contract.

We live in a time of extreme inefficiencies. Its in our government, Wall Street and throughout big business and it all ends up coming out of the same pockets, yours and mine. More people should question these important issues instead of just going with the flow.

ALPA pilots are free to question, but they don't.

ALPA voting rates for LEC elections ~35%
ALPA pilot particpation rates ~5%

Flightinfo doesn't count. If you don't like ALPA leadership then work to change it.

If we are in extreme difficulties then isn't representation more important than ever? But you want to leave your profession to the whims of a gov't and industry that is looking at every facet to cut corners?

If you don't speak up, someone will speak for you.

It's kind of like having blind faith in all doctors. The older you get and the more health issues you face you lose that blind faith and you start looking for the good one.

Are you looking at management or gov't?

Is ALPA the best we can do? Hardly.

I am constantly looking for a better, more effficient way to run my own household/business. Do you think ALPA is thinking of ways to save us anything? And even if there was a surplus on their side do you think we would get it back? No, they would just spend it because we aren't their only interest - they wouldn't know who to give it to.

The ALPA budget for this year will be about 6% less than 2008. Of course pilots will continue to expect more.

ALPA has laid off staff and continues to do so. In addtion, programs intended for 2009 to improve the profession and individual satisfaction will be delayed or scrapped.

ALPA is looking for ways to do things more efficiently.. You seem to be making assumptions.. do you have facts that ALPA will just spend excess?

Hanging with the status quo doesn't stimulate any thinking at all.

Please list a brief and informal log of your direct ALPA communication and LEC meeting attendance...

My point is, you want the service but you are not willing to switch from a "what is ALPA doing for me" mentality to "how can I be solution driven".

If you have a small/home business, then you must have some ideas or at least understand the complexities of reality.

Too many pilots view unions as a service economy entity. As you just did, comparing ALPA to your business. 'I paid for my service (via dues) now I want my 100% satisfaction....' Sorry, that is at the mall.

Instead of demanding, "what have you done for me, lately" why not figure out what can be done to to better the profession? You came into this profession with so many advantages that past pilots paid for in blood and sweat. But we just take those advances for granted.

But if working to make the profession better and being a part of something bigger than you is not good enough, lets get back to individual self interests; the recent UPS and FDX contracts.

The UPS contract was text book managment driven. They knew exactly what to negotiate to get the thinest majorority pilot approval they could. And UPS management succeeded. When the UPS contract was ratified, many UPS pilots were quite angry that such a management friendy contract was approved.

Contrast the FDX contract where over 90% of the pilots approved it, clearly shows it was a pilots contract.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Deleted

 

[JungleJett]

http://www.doobybrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/big-cups.jpg


A recent photo of an ALPA recruiting event hosted by Rez.

 

[CopilotDoug]

http://www.doobybrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/big-cups.jpg


A recent photo of an ALPA recruiting event hosted by Rez.

Whoa...that's alotta Kool-Aide

 

[say again]

http://www.doobybrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/big-cups.jpg


A recent photo of an ALPA recruiting event hosted by Rez.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Here's a Disconnect and I really think it's falling on alot of deaf ears at this point. ALPA has little to no control over the issues right here in their own backyard, and they've proven it. While the symbolism of an "International Presence" is wonderful and all, it doesn't address the main issues at the forefront of Pilot Concerns today.

Yeah, sure, but why don't you respond to my post?

Do you hold ALPA responsible for management NOT being like SWA management?

Regardless of economic environment, you feel ALPA should continue to make gains that satisfy individual pilot requirements?

These issues, while important, are lower on the priority list.

Right, because this is about you, the individual. This is not about making the profession better for all pilots, passengers and industry, this is about what is in it for you.. money and QOL.

And the Washington DC presence will help me put little Johnny through College how?

my point... "me, me, me..."

In actuality, do you think your chances of getting braces on your kids teeth and putting them thru college are greater if you bang the me me me drum or you find a collective rope to pull on?

(hint: SWA management works to get everyone on the collective rope)

Rez, who determined this to be a "problem?" Why do you expect people to be something they're not? Besides, isn't this also a collective interest? If Pilot Joe screams for more money and better benefits...and his Union miraculously negotiates a better contract, doesn't every pilot in that group benefit from that?

The selfish, self centered types (you know who they are..) who hate ALPA because ALPA doesn't deliver the money....

Face it.. that is why guys like you hate ALPA.... ALPA doesn't "show you the money"

Lower on the priority list...

Of course it is... just like all the other gains that you take for granted...

What is a priority is money.... right. ALPA suxs until you get more money in your bank.

Maybe my Copilot will help foot the bill for Johnny's education...

Why? Would you help with his needs? This is your elephant in the room.....

You want ALPA or your fellow pilot to help you, but you are willing to do nothing for ALPA or your fellow pilot...

How does that work, when all pilots are taking... asking "where is mine".... and no one is giving.... where does what you want come from...????

They do. As was evidenced by this article:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=120201

First off, this thread started by you and only one response by an total ALPA hater. There is no discussion or intrest here....

In addition, it shows once again what you are all about: money. You don't care about the profession and being an asset to company, passengers, industry and country... you just want money.

Which suggest that if ALPA provided financials gains via a CBA, in time, the "what have you done for me lately" mantra will creep in and you'll be hating ALPA all over again.....

Again, Rez. It's a poor comparison. Need I explain the Why again?

Can you explain why?

ALPA represented FDX pilots gained a far better contract than in house represented UPS pilots.

 

[GogglesPisano]

The reason we have unions is to make it more difficult to get fired if we mess up. Period.

Unions aren't necessary.

I'm trying to steer through your self-contradiction and find the logic. Either you are expecting to have a perfect, mistake-free career and feel you don't need the "protection," or you realize that pilots are human, make mistakes and need representation before management -- who'll usually sell you down the river to avoid enforecement against the company -- and the FAA.

Unions can't do much in the face of recession, terrorist attacks, criminal management, and low-cost pilots undercutting union wages, but they are better than the alternative.

I'll help you prove your point:
With the exception of JB and Skywest, name another non-union airline -- in the entire history of the commercial airline industry -- that has had better pay and QOL for their pilots than their union counterparts.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'll help you prove your point:
With the exception of JB and Skywest, name another non-union airline -- in the entire history of the commercial airline industry -- that has had better pay and QOL for their pilots than their union counterparts.

Well, JB is trying to organize... the issue with many JB pilots is a jb pilot=ramper=gate agent=FA. By law the company has to treat all employees the same.

I am not sure that a ramper at jb is really motivated to desire what the jb pilots desire. Sure a ramper would love pilot benefits that non jb pilots enjoy.... However, jb pilots have a valid argument that the training, education and responsibility allow for wages and benefits that reflect.

However, JB management CAN'T give its pilots a consummate compensation package until they organize. Only then can JB management legally provide a different 401k and healthplan. In addtion, jb can also say to their non pilot employees "we are bound by law to give pilots different benefits b/c they have a CBA."



As for Skywest.... they are simply a pilot group that enjoys the gains made by others. The argument made by many OO pilots during the organizing campaign was "why buy the cow, I get the milk for free". FI users like CFIT need to discredit ALPA because it is obvious that they are free loading off the hard work others. Simply put CFIT needs to claim the cow is bad, even though the milk is sweet....

 

[Turtle21]

I'll bite.....

In this case at this point in time, this union is a source of revenue for a few bloated individuals with self serving interests. Not a whole lot different from senior management.

Let me guess... this is where Rez and 128 jump in and blame us with the usual ALPA mantra of "WE are the union".

 

[JungleJett]

Has pilot compensation gone up or down in the past 10 years?

What significant safety enhancements has ALPA been the sole or primary leader on?

Has ALPA National leadership pay gone up or down and what is Praters current pay?

How many people does ALPA National employee?

What is the average salary of a secretary at ALPA National?

When is the last time Prater flew an airplane?

How have the fatigue rules changed in the past 5-10 years?

How did the age 65 rule pass when the membership (remember...ALPA IS its membership) voiced its opinion against it?

Why did Prater IGNORE his own Blue Ribbon Panel recommendations on the age 65 ruling?


​

 

[CopilotDoug]

Yeah, sure, but why don't you respond to my post?

Do you hold ALPA responsible for management NOT being like SWA management??

No. As SWAPA has demonstrated, it's not the Union alone which makes the difference.

Regardless of economic environment, you feel ALPA should continue to make gains that satisfy individual pilot requirements?

No. I expect ALPA to represent the will of the pilots. Certainly we are going into an unprecedented economic downturn and that needs to be taken into cnsideration. However, when Bonuses and Payraises are still being distributed, I expect my Union to come back with my piece of the pie.

Right, because this is about you, the individual. This is not about making the profession better for all pilots, passengers and industry, this is about what is in it for you.. money and QOL.

Yes, me the Individual Employee. SWA's number one priority is their employees. Number Two is the Customer. Happy employees make productive employees.

my point... "me, me, me..."

In actuality, do you think your chances of getting braces on your kids teeth and putting them thru college are greater if you bang the me me me drum or you find a collective rope to pull on?

(hint: SWA management works to get everyone on the collective rope)

Let's not take it out of context, to be sure. I'm not an advocate for the slacker pilot. If the company takes care of me, I'll take care of the company...and vice versa, I'll take care of the company to make sure it's there to take care of me. But to answer your question: Yes, I still do believe it is the collective reult of individual self interest which raise the bar. Tempered with a little moderation, of course.

The selfish, self centered types (you know who they are..) who hate ALPA because ALPA doesn't deliver the money....

Face it.. that is why guys like you hate ALPA.... ALPA doesn't "show you the money"

Hate is too strong a word. If ALPA can't represent my interests...so be it. I don't have any disillusions about ALPA's capabilities.

Of course it is... just like all the other gains that you take for granted...

What is a priority is money.... right. ALPA suxs until you get more money in your bank.

Priorities change and evolve. Yes, in the beginning, Safety was paramount. Today, that's fairly well nipped in the bud and I would even say is a self-perpetuating Industry. Take ALPA away and improvements will continue to be made in the Safety Arena. Money always has been a priority. Always will be. I can appreciate the econmic downturn, but as I said before, when bonuses are being doled out on mahogany row...is it wrong to want to share in the profits?

Why? Would you help with his needs? This is your elephant in the room.....

You want ALPA or your fellow pilot to help you, but you are willing to do nothing for ALPA or your fellow pilot...

How does that work, when all pilots are taking... asking "where is mine".... and no one is giving.... where does what you want come from...????.

I addressed this above, the part about moderation and not being a slacker.

First off, this thread started by you and only one response by an total ALPA hater. There is no discussion or intrest here....

In addition, it shows once again what you are all about: money. You don't care about the profession and being an asset to company, passengers, industry and country... you just want money.

Which suggest that if ALPA provided financials gains via a CBA, in time, the "what have you done for me lately" mantra will creep in and you'll be hating ALPA all over again.....

No discussion or interest? I don't see many people visiting the Union section, there's your lack of interest. Lack of discussion? Easy...it's a widely accepted truth. Again...addressing the whole money issue...refer to the "moderation" part.

Can you explain why?

ALPA represented FDX pilots gained a far better contract than in house represented UPS pilots.

Better? That's a subjective term. Your argument implies that UPS and FedEx are essentially business model twins, right down to the last detail. In actuality, every minute difference between the two companies played a role in the outcome of their respective contracts. One pivital difference between the two are the Management teams. What you're essentially implying is that ALPA would have been able to negotiate a better contract at UPS. That's like me saying SWAPA would negotiate a better contract at UAL. It doesn't hold water.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Has pilot compensation gone up or down in the past 10 years?​

so it is for you about money. You got into this line of work not for the professional status but for the money.

Any changes in compensation were voted upon by ALPA pilots.​

What significant safety enhancements has ALPA been the sole or primary leader on?

Compared to other unions or industry wide?​

Has ALPA National leadership pay gone up or down and what is Praters current pay?

Leadership pay has gone down. Ppraters pay is determined by democratic vote of all LEC officers of whom are elected by a minority number of ALPA pilots. ~35%​

How many people does ALPA National employee?​

Would you like to ba an ALPA employee? They are not hiring rather laying off.

What is the average salary of a secretary at ALPA National?

Do you expect ALPA to fire someone if their pay gets too high?​

When is the last time Prater flew an airplane?

Do you want him flying trips or representing pilots?​

How have the fatigue rules changed in the past 5-10 years?

LAst 8 years. Bush. Any questions?​

How did the age 65 rule pass when the membership (remember...ALPA IS its membership) voiced its opinion against it?

Recall the question... if the law was to change....​

Why did Prater IGNORE his own Blue Ribbon Panel recommendations on the age 65 ruling?​

ask him. I didn't vote for him...

 

[Turtle21]

Any changes in compensation were voted upon by ALPA pilots.

I appreciate that you point out the importance of the vote. After all, that is the expression of the will of the pilots. If ALPA had not repeatedly obstructed the pilot's right to vote, ALPA would still be at USAir.

Your claim that all changes in compensation were voted on is not accurate. The $3 Billion pension was earned compensation of the USAir pilots. ALPA gave it to USAir mngmnt WITHOUT a vote by the pilots.

Even as much money as it was, it is not about the money. It is about the representatives being responsive to those who elected them. ALPA divorced themselves from the pilots long ago at USAir and finally came face to face with a pilot vote (the NMB) that even they could not forgo or manipulate (though they pulled out all the stops and tried their best).

 

[MCDU]

Oh, the ALPA mailings in weeks prior to the NMB vote. Never in my life did I ever get so much spam in my mailbox. It kept on coming and coming and when you thought they could not send anymore, they doubled the output in the last 2-3 weeks. All paid for by ALPA Union dues. They had no chance of wining, but the rational was that we can spam ourselves to victory and keep 5000 dues paying pilots on the payroll. What a waste of money that was. Where was all this concern when our pensions got flushed down the toilet. That should have been done by vote. Instead it got blessed by ALPA and insured that the dues kept coming. ALPA is not run like a Union.

M