Miracle on the Hudson: brought to you by Union workers

[Crzipilot]

I think that was his point. With PCL saying he doesn't mind ceo's making 100mill, while pilots make 16k. As long as Alpo survives and gets their money...it's all goooood....

 

[Linedriver]

Fellas, fellas listen.... Lets look at unions for what they really do for us. Really..

Bottom line, why do we have unions? It isn't to protect our work rules, they are given away by ALPA. It isn't for pay, that is taken away. The reason we have unions is to make it more difficult to get fired if we mess up. Period. The rest of the time it is just an expense we pay, forced to pay, for 'protection' however you want to define that.

Unions aren't necessary. And how effective are they really when it comes to something like a merger where the same entity represents both pilot groups?

In the end they try to justify their own existance and expense. You guys can argue this point back and forth, blah, blah, blah but in the end unions are just revenue generators for their own cause.

 

[JungleJett]

I've never hidden anything. In fact, I've always been completely open about it. Dumb decision a decade ago, didn't know any better, now regret it, and I speak out against it so today's newbies don't make the same mistake. Pretty simple, really.

Hmmm....the guy at the end.....??/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7U8LJyIBAU

 

[CFIT]

Fellas, fellas listen.... Lets look at unions for what they really do for us. Really..

Bottom line, why do we have unions? It isn't to protect our work rules, they are given away by ALPA. It isn't for pay, that is taken away. The reason we have unions is to make it more difficult to get fired if we mess up. Period. The rest of the time it is just an expense we pay, forced to pay, for 'protection' however you want to define that.

Unions aren't necessary. And how effective are they really when it comes to something like a merger where the same entity represents both pilot groups?

In the end they try to justify their own existance and expense. You guys can argue this point back and forth, blah, blah, blah but in the end unions are just revenue generators for their own cause.

100% accurate!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

100% accurate!

feel better?

 

[PCL_128]

Hmmm....the guy at the end.....??/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7U8LJyIBAU

Nope.

 

[JungleJett]

Nope.

But do you agree with what he said?

 

[ableone]

Fellas, fellas listen.... Lets look at unions for what they really do for us. Really..

Bottom line, why do we have unions? It isn't to protect our work rules, they are given away by ALPA. It isn't for pay, that is taken away. The reason we have unions is to make it more difficult to get fired if we mess up. Period. The rest of the time it is just an expense we pay, forced to pay, for 'protection' however you want to define that.

Unions aren't necessary. And how effective are they really when it comes to something like a merger where the same entity represents both pilot groups?

In the end they try to justify their own existance and expense. You guys can argue this point back and forth, blah, blah, blah but in the end unions are just revenue generators for their own cause.

Oh, so you are one of those (idiots)who believe that seniority is a right and that a company will hire, upgrade, downgrade and furlough utilizing seniority even if no union is on property.

No union means the pilot who won't write up discrepancies and is willing to carry airplanes will upgrade first and keep his job in a downturn.

The "merit" system is a dangerous place to fly airplanes.

You dismiss unions as an unnecessary anachronism but I bet you have never flown jets for a company that had no union and a "merit" system.

 

[merlindrvr88]

today

They were certainly successful at bailing out, but they haven't been successful at building a functioning union. Over 2,000 USAirways pilots still refuse to pay dues. Not a single representative has been elected from the West domiciles. uSAPa is a mess.

They'll be back in another year or so. Count on it.

who is your controller

 

[Linedriver]

Oh, so you are one of those (idiots)who believe that seniority is a right and that a company will hire, upgrade, downgrade and furlough utilizing seniority even if no union is on property.

No union means the pilot who won't write up discrepancies and is willing to carry airplanes will upgrade first and keep his job in a downturn.

The "merit" system is a dangerous place to fly airplanes.

You dismiss unions as an unnecessary anachronism but I bet you have never flown jets for a company that had no union and a "merit" system.

Because an individual has a differing opinion doesn't make him an idiot. That comment does however, reflect your mentality.

You don't need a union to have seniority. As for your other conclusions, I have flown jets in a non union company and we did a fine job. We wrote up the problems and helped each other out when we could.

We can represent ourselves more effectively as we have a vested interest in the outcome, unlike a third party. Save a lot of money in the meantime.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We can represent ourselves more effectively as we have a vested interest in the outcome, unlike a third party. Save a lot of money in the meantime.

Can you provide details.... how do you do this?

 

[PCL_128]

But do you agree with what he said?

Absolutely not.

 

[JungleJett]

Can you provide details.... how do you do this?

Others have chosen to drive their own boat with in house unions....and done as well if not better than any ALPA represented group.

But then again...maybe the poster is talking about no union at all...as much as I think ALPA is useless, and I do, unions have their place.

 

[Huck]

You see, if ALPA hadn't been involved in all the givebacks and featherbedding their own pockets, Capt. Sully may have actually been able to comfortable retire early, and enjoy the twilight of his career, not slogging around the NE during winter, etc etc.
]
So with the removal of pensions, pay cuts, QOL cuts and such, along with the chance to work 5 extra years to make up those give backs, ALPA should be congradulated for keeping these senior airman in the air....

Bingo.

 

[Linedriver]

Can you provide details.... how do you do this?

Look at Southwest. They do just fine representing their own pilot group. They do have a union but it is made up of their own pilots and there is no question where their loyalties are.

Do you know that just the DL/NWA pilot group pays in around 30 million annually, or more, to ALPA. 30 million dollars! Now that's some expensive representation. I'm sure there are financials for public viewing but why does it take that?

It shouldn't take that. That kind of funding, in my opinion, is a total joke, especially in light of ALPA's effectiveness.

We live in a time of extreme inefficiencies. Its in our government, Wall Street and throughout big business and it all ends up coming out of the same pockets, yours and mine. More people should question these important issues instead of just going with the flow.

It's kind of like having blind faith in all doctors. The older you get and the more health issues you face you lose that blind faith and you start looking for the good one.

Is ALPA the best we can do? Hardly.

I am constantly looking for a better, more effficient way to run my own household/business. Do you think ALPA is thinking of ways to save us anything? And even if there was a surplus on their side do you think we would get it back? No, they would just spend it because we aren't their only interest - they wouldn't know who to give it to.

Hanging with the status quo doesn't stimulate any thinking at all.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Look at Southwest. They do just fine representing their own pilot group. They do have a union but it is made up of their own pilots and there is no question where their loyalties are.

Do you know that just the DL/NWA pilot group pays in around 30 million annually, or more, to ALPA. 30 million dollars! Now that's some expensive representation. I'm sure there are financials for public viewing but why does it take that?

It shouldn't take that. That kind of funding, in my opinion, is a total joke, especially in light of ALPA's effectiveness.

We live in a time of extreme inefficiencies. Its in our government, Wall Street and throughout big business and it all ends up coming out of the same pockets, yours and mine. More people should question these important issues instead of just going with the flow.

It's kind of like having blind faith in all doctors. The older you get and the more health issues you face you lose that blind faith and you start looking for the good one.

Is ALPA the best we can do? Hardly.

I am constantly looking for a better, more effficient way to run my own household/business. Do you think ALPA is thinking of ways to save us anything? And even if there was a surplus on their side do you think we would get it back? No, they would just spend it because we aren't their only interest - they wouldn't know who to give it to.

Hanging with the status quo doesn't stimulate any thinking at all.

Well said, LineDriver

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Look at Southwest. They do just fine representing their own pilot group. They do have a union but it is made up of their own pilots and there is no question where their loyalties are.

Nice try, but no. SWAPA enjoys a very unique managment. SWA actually views, over the last decades, unions as partners in thier business model.

You can't blame ALPA because Tilton, Steenland [and Neeleman] are anti union.

In addition, SWAPA pays ALPA for services they cannot provide on thier own. Simply put, SWAPA, APA, IPA, they are fine unions, but they don't take on the global issues. They build a small sandbox to manage. Small local issues for a couple off thousand pilots are easy to control and manage as opposed to global international issues for 100,000s of pilots.

ALPA is a part of Int'l Federation of Air Line Pilots.

ALPA has an office at ICAO.

Do you know that just the DL/NWA pilot group pays in around 30 million annually, or more, to ALPA. 30 million dollars! Now that's some expensive representation. I'm sure there are financials for public viewing but why does it take that?

What does SWAPA do for Safety and Engineering? Are they working NAS mod? Runway safety? The list goes on.... Sure they might be involved but they don't have the money to back up spearheading involvement.

SWAPA is a part of CAPA, but I haven't seen much of what they do. (I am on the email list). ALPA has had Wash DC presence since 1931.

Your problem when you see that 30MM value, is you wonder why there isn't direct individual benefit.

There is also collective benefit, of participating in gov't and industry programs.

What is SWAPA, IPA and APA doing to promote SMS?

It shouldn't take that. That kind of funding, in my opinion, is a total joke, especially in light of ALPA's effectiveness.

Again, you are looking at it in terms of 'what is in it for me?"

ALPA also has a major contingency fund or MCF. In the past, during the Lorenzo era, the EAL MEC ran short of funds and there was no support.... The MCF was created to support pilot groups when they have to deal with NON SWA management types like a Lorenzo.

A couple of yearrs ago, ALPA provided Pinnacle pilots 2MM in support of a contract.

We live in a time of extreme inefficiencies. Its in our government, Wall Street and throughout big business and it all ends up coming out of the same pockets, yours and mine. More people should question these important issues instead of just going with the flow.

ALPA pilots are free to question, but they don't.

ALPA voting rates for LEC elections ~35%
ALPA pilot particpation rates ~5%

Flightinfo doesn't count. If you don't like ALPA leadership then work to change it.

If we are in extreme difficulties then isn't representation more important than ever? But you want to leave your profession to the whims of a gov't and industry that is looking at every facet to cut corners?

If you don't speak up, someone will speak for you.

It's kind of like having blind faith in all doctors. The older you get and the more health issues you face you lose that blind faith and you start looking for the good one.

Are you looking at management or gov't?

Is ALPA the best we can do? Hardly.

I am constantly looking for a better, more effficient way to run my own household/business. Do you think ALPA is thinking of ways to save us anything? And even if there was a surplus on their side do you think we would get it back? No, they would just spend it because we aren't their only interest - they wouldn't know who to give it to.

The ALPA budget for this year will be about 6% less than 2008. Of course pilots will continue to expect more.

ALPA has laid off staff and continues to do so. In addtion, programs intended for 2009 to improve the profession and individual satisfaction will be delayed or scrapped.

ALPA is looking for ways to do things more efficiently.. You seem to be making assumptions.. do you have facts that ALPA will just spend excess?

Hanging with the status quo doesn't stimulate any thinking at all.

Please list a brief and informal log of your direct ALPA communication and LEC meeting attendance...

My point is, you want the service but you are not willing to switch from a "what is ALPA doing for me" mentality to "how can I be solution driven".

If you have a small/home business, then you must have some ideas or at least understand the complexities of reality.

Too many pilots view unions as a service economy entity. As you just did, comparing ALPA to your business. 'I paid for my service (via dues) now I want my 100% satisfaction....' Sorry, that is at the mall.

Instead of demanding, "what have you done for me, lately" why not figure out what can be done to to better the profession? You came into this profession with so many advantages that past pilots paid for in blood and sweat. But we just take those advances for granted.

But if working to make the profession better and being a part of something bigger than you is not good enough, lets get back to individual self interests; the recent UPS and FDX contracts.

The UPS contract was text book managment driven. They knew exactly what to negotiate to get the thinest majorority pilot approval they could. And UPS management succeeded. When the UPS contract was ratified, many UPS pilots were quite angry that such a management friendy contract was approved.

Contrast the FDX contract where over 90% of the pilots approved it, clearly shows it was a pilots contract.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Deleted

 

[JungleJett]

http://www.doobybrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/big-cups.jpg


A recent photo of an ALPA recruiting event hosted by Rez.

 

[CopilotDoug]

http://www.doobybrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/big-cups.jpg


A recent photo of an ALPA recruiting event hosted by Rez.

Whoa...that's alotta Kool-Aide