Miracle on the Hudson: brought to you by Union workers

[JoeMerchant]

...and has put pilots at a distinct disadvantage at their very own careers in today and tomorrow's volatile markets.

....ironically enough seniority is also the thing that caused the USAirways pilots to fire ALPA....

 

[Bringupthebird]

Would it make you happy if everybody died so nobody could praise USAPA?

Get a life, Jacktard!

Nope, just waiting for USAPA to die.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

you can't BS a BSer:




safety: always a byproduct of the resulting CRM of a crew being paired together. I call BS

The did the EGPWS help? How was judging distance over a relatively smooth water surface? Who pushed for GPWS? Companies? the FAA?

lobbying: well after all the lobbying, congress didn't change the laws regarding underfunded pensions or force the PBGC to require corps fully fund 100% all there their pension obligations and get accouting rules changed to reflect that those future obligations are a liability. Also, what happened to Free Airspace? still hasn't happened. why not lobby to open the strategic petrol reserve to airlines when oil spikes over a 100 for example. where's your lobbying? what the heck have you lobbied for and what have you produced? I call BS

Your examples aren't directly related to safety. But more importantly the question is.... what if there was no lobbying at all? No PBSG? Would most pilots simply leave the business?

Were the gutting of contracts during the BK era negotiated and voted on, or did management just write their own ticket?

senority: don't see a correlation between the skill of a career FO vis a vis a well trained 25 year old F-15 pilot just out of the airforce. secondly, senority is good for getting weekends off and determining upgrade opportunity only, not a slamdunk on the upgrade. I call BS.

I spoke of seniority for favoritism. Not weekends off. At many airlines over seas, say in the middle east, upgrade is by favorites....

at Airtran as an example, I have friends who have told me that many pass the upgrade because they fear the training dept. I have even heard and know 2 guys that were failed on a recurrent FO PC.
Senority is a custom, a norm established and though it might require an orderly promotion system, weak captains still get through because Unions give mutiple failures and get there job back etc, etc after the botched upgrade. I call BS on that

I posit you don't know how the training programs work...

I've seen unions see pilots fail and get terminated. The union simply ensured the process was contractual....

So, you allege that the 3 points above somehow resulted in a safe outcome to an inflight emergency? I still see no corellation between a guy who , by the seat of his pants , can determine the proper pitch attitude to get the best angle of glide in a 140,000 pound airplane, it has no bearing whatsoever.

That is obvious.....

Respectfully, unions have been safety advocates for technology and tools we take for granted. For example,... although not a safety tool but rather a union benefit, the two day weekend was union negotiated, something ALL workers in the US enjoy and simply take for granted.




Here is related post...

Not siding with USAPA, rather pilot representation...

When the FAA, NTSB, your company and the press are all hounding to get a piece of you for their own agenda, a fellow pilot with a game plan and a response team is exactly what you need...

Have you ever considered if you were the first pilot upon and incident or accident. How would you help your fellow pilots? Would you expedite them to a discrete hotel and pay the bill with your credit card?

Would you engage your LEC and MEC until the pilots own LEC could provide support?

This is a FEDEX union message to its pilots after the Tallahassee accident...

Loyalty, Integrity and Unity


(30 Jul Message Line) Comair Pilots "stood round-the-clock door security in
4-hour shifts for our pilots' rooms to prevent media and other unsavory
characters from entering. The FAA even attempted to get to the pilots
before representation personnel were there, and the Comair guys stopped
them."


​

​

I am simply suggesting that unions are the resources that allow us the be the professional.

Again, who are the custodians of the profession? Who protects it, promotes it and defends it? I posit that WE are.. and we use unions to do it....

 

[climbhappy]

I would have changed the title of the thread to something else then . "brought to you" implies something.

you say "unions are the resources that allow us to be the professional."

I submit that each one's drive individually and not collectively is what constitutes professionalism.

some are more than others. self study and constant reveiw are what is required in any field.
some just collect a check and eek by their whole career.


I think I know what you're trying to say, but it comes out funny.

national union oversight and initiatives seek to cast a net of far reaching saftey continuing education
and review that ultimately adds to the progression of each of its members; and not detracts from the collective non fatal incident and accident statistical outcomes.

Hows that?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Cool..... thanks for perspective....

 

[PCL_128]

I can't believe this is actually a contentious thread. Absolutely ridiculous. If all of you dissenters would get off of your collective ass and do something for your union instead of sitting around bitching about it all the time *cough*JoeyMerchant*cough*, then maybe you could improve some of the things that you perceive are wrong with your union.

 

[CopilotDoug]

I can't believe this is actually a contentious thread. Absolutely ridiculous. If all of you dissenters would get off of your collective ass and do something for your union instead of sitting around bitching about it all the time *cough*JoeyMerchant*cough*, then maybe you could improve some of the things that you perceive are wrong with your union.

This implies there's a need for today's Unions...lets put ALPA in the spotlight.

You mention "dissenters"...

What if the "dissenters" become the majority?

Is there a need for ALPA, then?

Are they "dissenters" at that point if they represent the majority?


It's contentious, PCL, because I am certain at NO POINT on the CVR, pre- or post-impact, will you hear ANY crew member thanking ALPA for saving the day.

This thread is an attempt to pull Unions into the spotlight on the Coat Tails of a crew which was trying to save their (and their pax) asses.

 

[Dan Roman]

I can't believe this is actually a contentious thread. Absolutely ridiculous. If all of you dissenters would get off of your collective ass and do something for your union instead of sitting around bitching about it all the time *cough*JoeyMerchant*cough*, then maybe you could improve some of the things that you perceive are wrong with your union.

Couldn't agree with you more on that one PCL.
Having a Union is the best vehicle for a pilot group to collectivly deal with management for the betterment of the the group as a whole. The haters that run around complaining about ALPA do so because they don't feel they are personally getting enough. Their idea of the big picture is the mirror in their bathroom.

 

[JoeMerchant]

PCL_128...Welcome back from the penalty box....

What would you like me to do? I know....I should go to meetings shouldn't I.....Been there done that....There are about 40 folks in a room....About 30 of which think like you and Rez...and maybe 10 or so that think kinda like me....

Of the the 30 or so that think like you...If you can get them to comment "off the record"...they will admit that ALPA has some serious issues....That is quickly followed up by "but it's the best we got" or "there is no other choice"....Sorry I don't work that way.....

The irony about the safety issue and unions is that ALPA wanted pilots to retire at 60 because of "safety issues" for many years.....Is Sully going to be less capable of what he did when is birthday comes up next year? That was a case of safety being thrown out the window for money....It is a money issue for people...

Another irony is Rez posting an article that makes USAPA look good.....Shall we pull up some past posts from you and Rez where you don't even consider USAPA a union....How about G0Jets teamsters....do they qualify as a union now when it suits the flag wavers? How about the Pinnacle crash....is that because of the union?

To turn this great event which makes ALL pilots look good...both UNION AND NON-Union...into an ALPA recruiting tool....is exactly the reason people have lost faith in ALPA....There are too many "Rez O. Lewshuns"....not enough leaders......

 

[PCL_128]

PCL_128...Welcome back from the penalty box....

The break was good.

What would you like me to do? I know....I should go to meetings shouldn't I.....Been there done that....

Yeah, you've "been there and done that" alright. You attended a single meeting as a Council 112 officer and stole the meeting minutes. It's just a shame that no one Article VIII'd your ass.

There are about 40 folks in a room....About 30 of which think like you and Rez...

Yes, those are the productive members of the group.

and maybe 10 or so that think kinda like me....

And those are the useless whiners.

 

[PCL_128]

What if the "dissenters" become the majority?

They aren't. You represent a tiny minority of the membership. The polling data is pretty clear.

It's contentious, PCL, because I am certain at NO POINT on the CVR, pre- or post-impact, will you hear ANY crew member thanking ALPA for saving the day.

You won't hear Skywest or JetBlue pilots thanking ALPA for CrewPass either, but they sure like it. You won't hear pilots thanking ALPA for wx radar, TCAS, EGPWS, etc..., but it saves lives. You won't hear a lot of pilots ever thanking their union for anything.......until they get into trouble and need the union to protect their ass.

 

[CopilotDoug]

They aren't. You represent a tiny minority of the membership. The polling data is pretty clear.

I'm sorry. I stand corrected. Then that should translate to Large Majority participating in Elections and Meetings. My mistake.

You won't hear Skywest or JetBlue pilots thanking ALPA for CrewPass either, but they sure like it. You won't hear pilots thanking ALPA for wx radar, TCAS, EGPWS, etc..., but it saves lives. You won't hear a lot of pilots ever thanking their union for anything.......until they get into trouble and need the union to protect their ass.

Nice try at side-tracking the issue. What these pilots were doing was saving their asses. Nothing more, nothing less. Yet, you feel compelled to try and somehow...anyhow possible...to push ALPA into the limelight so they can get some of the glory.

Sorry Chief...We're not buying into it...and the American public isn't buying into it.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm sorry. I stand corrected. Then that should translate to Large Majority participating in Elections and Meetings. My mistake.

There's a difference between apathy and dissent. Most members are apathetic, but they aren't dissenters. Most members are content to sit back and let "the union" handle things for them, and they don't really participate, but they aren't hostile towards their union like you are.

Nice try at side-tracking the issue. What these pilots were doing was saving their asses. Nothing more, nothing less. Yet, you feel compelled to try and somehow...anyhow possible...to push ALPA into the limelight so they can get some of the glory.

It's because of ALPA that they received the best training possible. It's because of ALPA that airplanes are designed well enough to survive such an event. It's because of NATCA that controllers are so well trained. It's because of the AFA that stews are so well trained. It's because of the AFA that experienced stews aren't kicked to the curb on their 30th birthday.

You can try to pretend that unions don't influence everything around you in the industry, but you're living in a fantasy world. Read the first few chapters of "Flying the Line, Vol 1." That's how this industry would still be if it weren't for ALPA.

 

[CopilotDoug]

There's a difference between apathy and dissent. Most members are apathetic, but they aren't dissenters. Most members are content to sit back and let "the union" handle things for them, and they don't really participate, but they aren't hostile towards their union like you are.

And that's what this boils down to...if one takes an opposing viewpoint on an issue...according to You, one is labeled aa a Dissenter and Hostile. So what's the deal, you want people to participate as long as they agree with the mainstream view (Which was arrived at by a Distinct Minority)?

It's because of ALPA that they received the best training possible. It's because of ALPA that airplanes are designed well enough to survive such an event. It's because of NATCA that controllers are so well trained. It's because of the AFA that stews are so well trained. It's because of the AFA that experienced stews aren't kicked to the curb on their 30th birthday.

You can try to pretend that unions don't influence everything around you in the industry, but you're living in a fantasy world. Read the first few chapters of "Flying the Line, Vol 1." That's how this industry would still be if it weren't for ALPA.

If you want to be specific...it is all possible due to USAPA. But I digress...

How about the crashes where nobody walked away...are those because of ALPA?

 

[PCL_128]

And that's what this boils down to...if one takes an opposing viewpoint on an issue...according to You, one is labeled aa a Dissenter and Hostile. So what's the deal, you want people to participate as long as they agree with the mainstream view (Which was arrived at by a Distinct Minority)?

You aren't participating. The malcontents never do. They just scream and holler from the sidelines. Have you ever held union office? Even run for union office? Yeah, didn't think so.

If you want to be specific...it is all possible due to USAPA. But I digress...

Nice try, but no. uSAPa has yet to do anything for this profession. Nearly all of the aviation safety advances that have taken place over the past three-quarters of a century have been due to ALPA's efforts. The only thing uSAPa has managed to do is tear a pilot group apart.

 

[CopilotDoug]

You aren't participating. The malcontents never do. They just scream and holler from the sidelines. Have you ever held union office? Even run for union office? Yeah, didn't think so.

No...I have never held the highly coveted, ethereal position of a Union Officer. I'm out on the line...flying...not looking for an excuse to stay on the ground.

Nice try, but no. uSAPa has yet to do anything for this profession. Nearly all of the aviation safety advances that have taken place over the past three-quarters of a century have been due to ALPA's efforts. The only thing uSAPa has managed to do is tear a pilot group apart.

These pilots thanked USAPA. You're going to question them? Time for you to face the music...ALPA wasn't on the invitation list for this event.

 

[JungleJett]

Real quick...as I am playing in someone else s back yard here.

What the crew of that flight did was incredible. It took skill, leadership, crew coordination and a $hit pot full of luck. They should all be praised.

If the Hudson save was brought to you by ALPA, are all the accidents resulting in deaths that are blamed on pilot error "brought to you by ALPA" as well?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Real quick...as I am playing in someone else s back yard here.

What the crew of that flight did was incredible. It took skill, leadership, crew coordination and a $hit pot full of luck. They should all be praised.

If the Hudson save was brought to you by ALPA, are all the accidents resulting in deaths that are blamed on pilot error "brought to you by ALPA" as well?

No....because ALPA takes credit for the good things and places blame for bad things on either the membership, management, or evil Republicans......

 

[PuffDriver]

No....because ALPA takes credit for the good things and places blame for bad things on either the membership, management, or evil Republicans......

:crying: :crying: :crying: :crying:

 

[Scope out RJ's]

No....because ALPA takes credit for the good things and places blame for bad things on either the membership, management, or evil Republicans......

So who does the rjdc blame its problems on?
I mean after all, that lawsuit was so successful!:laugh: :laugh: