mil turboprop vs. civ jet experience

[skywiz]

and the thread continues..

Enigma,

You say I bring up one point in a post and then argue another. First of all, I initially asked a question in general about competitiveness of tprop time to jet time.

You come back and think in my post that just because I hope to avoid a gig at a regional, I think I am too good to fly an RJ. And then you think my post is flamebait.

Quote by Enigma:
" I did not argue the qualification point with you. I only objected to your implication that a military trained pilot should be able to bypass the regionals."

In response to this, I respond to why I think an ex mil pilot should in most cases be able to bypass the reg. carriers. My argument that military pilots are able to bypass regionals is based on experience gained in active duty flying. This is called "backing up" my statement. (in response to your reply)

What I don't understand is why you write a whole page on your qualifications and what you have flown. While I agree that you have great experience and that you are obviously highly qualified, what is relevent about your quals to the latter argument I was responding to? I never at anytime was refering to you or your experience. I never said you weren't qualified for any type of job. This has nothing to do with you.

Quote from Enigma: "You are trying to compare an 8 year military vet with a fresh out of flight school CFI. Let me give you a better comparison."

(actually a fresh out of flight school CFI is not qualified to go to a regional...I was talking about a CFI with 1200-1400 hrs. - if you are going to respond, at least quote me correctly)

But, back to the quote, you are absolutely right! I AM NOT comparing an 8 yr mil vet with YOU! I am comparing an ex mil pilot with someone who is competitive for a regional. (Hence a 1400 hr CFI!) If you agree that a CFI does not compare to an 8 yr mil pilot (like you said) AND that CFI is qualified enough for a regional job, then why would an ex mil pilot expect or accept that fact that they need to spend time at a regional??? - this is my whole point. Put the pieces together. Nothing personal.

-skywiz

 

[OUjetdrvr]

Skywiz,

Just remember, experience in this industry is measured on FLIGHT TIME not "passage of time"! In your 8-10 yrs in the mil how many shore/ground billets did you do? You definately were not flying all the time! So in that respect, yes, a 2 yr civ pilot is just about as well experienced as a 10 yr mil flyer. Flying light twins in crappy weather with little or no radar and/or icing conditions will build experience in no time!

I am a regional pilot, who over four years, has flown with many prior mil. guys that made me cringe with their "piloting" skills! But I have flown with many who were just fine as well. I am not trying to bash you , just let you know that just because your mil doesnt alwasy mean your above all else! There are obviously good and bad in all sorts of pilot groups. Please dont generalize...There are many Reg. Capts and senior FOs that are just as qualified...just without the connections afforded some. Good luck!

 

[OUjetdrvr]

Oh I forgot one critical and ugly point.

IN light of the current trend in the industry, with majors shrinking and regionals and LCCs expanding. You may have no choice but lend your experienced piloting skills to any number of regionals currently hiring!

 

[enigma]

But, back to the quote, you are absolutely right! I AM NOT comparing an 8 yr mil vet with YOU! I am comparing an ex mil pilot with someone who is competitive for a regional. (Hence a 1400 hr CFI!) If you agree that a CFI does not compare to an 8 yr mil pilot (like you said) AND that CFI is qualified enough for a regional job, then why would an ex mil pilot expect or accept that fact that they need to spend time at a regional??? - this is my whole point. Put the pieces together. Nothing personal.

-skywiz

Again wiz, I'm going to suggest that you are arguing two different issues. You wrote, "I am comparing an ex mil pilot with someone who is competitive for a regional."
I respond. YOUR FIRST POST WASN'T ABOUT REGIONAL HIRING, IT WAS ABOUT MAJOR HIRING. I wrote about my experience to show you that I was the competition for a major job, not the 1400 hour CFI. I was, and am, discussing your points as they pertain to MAJOR airline hiring.

Let me leave it at this. Are you more qualified to Captain an MD80, or 737 than am I?

Now, go back and read your first post. I have and I still see it as an arrogant statement.

Also, nothing personal.

regards,
enigma

 

[FedExpert]

Don't you hardcore civies worry. Before too many years if we continue this downward spiral in the majors, you will have it all to yourselves. Few self respecting military guys will give up thier good military pay flying or options in a non-flying job to fly for a regional or regional-level pay with no good prospects. Just because you have the financial backing to pay for your ratings, earn little and survive for years on that, and pay your way through any check ride busts, doesn't mean it will be worth it in the end.

 

[OUjetdrvr]

OK I was trying to be civil but I will respond with this. I am sorry to say your slightly mistaken sir. You "major" pilots are pricing yourself out of the business! Its the nature of the beast, ECONOMICS. And I am not taking about Majors to Regionals but Majors to LCCs too! Its no fault of the regional scrappy just poor timing on many aspects. The system is simply resetting itself, the scales are being tared! You describe most civilian pilots as having silver spoons in their mouths. Uhm, "Hello pot, this is the kettle" By the way I have never heard of buying my through check ride busts, but then I always come prepared!
If we had a little more support from the big kids on the block during contract negotiations maybe we could help "preserve the profession" instead of being kicked in the teeth and blamed for the current direction of the industry.
Respectfully submitted,

 

[TheTIC]

Stay in the military

The way pilot pay scales are going, stay in the military. I thought going to the civilian world would mean about 150% increase in pay (after a few years at the bottom of the pay scale). Now, I don't think I will make more take home the I did as an 0-4. Oh, plus the retirements at the airlines are all going away (probably).

So learn Arabic and decide on your favorite 120 degree country and stay in the military.

Oh, by the way will anyone hire me

 

[FedExpert]

Sooners yeah, regionals no. Its just not worth it. Your are also right about the economics. Business will be able to recuit cheaper pilots while guys insist that we are making too much/enough and don't fight for more. That is why I am rooting for Delta pilots, the only ones in this business who still have backbone. And, not to mention, until Kit Darby and Co stop telling guys that everything is good and getting better.

 

[:-)]

I have over 8 years in a Part25 airplanes. I think I'll call up the Pentagon and demand that they put me into the left seat of a C17 immediately if not sooner. With me having all of the heavy time I've got, I see no reason to waste my time flying anything lesser in the military fleet.

Do you guys think I've got a chance, or will I have to demean myself and fly a T1 first?

And another thing, I don't want to start out at the bottom of the rank list either, I demand to be a "street" General Officer. There, now I feel better.

bottoms up,
Calvin






Note: Calvin's just joshing you army brats. I love you, and thank you for your service.

Hobbes

 

[Dizel8]

While you are at it, ask for a raise!

As for me, I will not acept anything less than Space Shuttle Commander!

 

[OUjetdrvr]

Kit Darby is a weasel who feeds on the naivete of young green pilots who are promised much greener pastures and wind up with a bucket of sour milk! Cheers

 

[OUjetdrvr]

My wife and my Sooners are the only ones who bring me happiness anymore, flying is just a job now!

 

[vetteracer]

Divide and Conquer. I wonder how many read these posts and think, great, there fighting amongst each other now.

Flying 135 light twins around single pilot IFR 6 days a week, 5 hours a day in an area that has 4 seasons is probably the hardest flying there is. It is a baptism by fire.

Total flight time represents how much time you have spent in the air dealing with Thunderstorms, Ice, Freezing rain, Ice covered runways, de-icing, developing weather skills, flight planing, and after 5000 hours they probably figure you have had your share of in flight emergencies, and learned a few things the hard way.

As far as who is the "more qualified" it is a toss. There are good reasons to hire each. But time in the air is just that.

As far as Turboprop time SWA offers a reduced rate for those with 1500 hours Turbine.

SWA – 2500 TT w/1000 turbine, or 1500 turbine.

Many Major airlines only count 121/135 time. No flight instruction or personal time. So there are allot of guys that can cut their TT in half. So I think the scales have been leveled pretty fairly.

Mark

 

[Candide]

Be careful what you wish for...

I have over 8 years in a Part25 airplanes. I think I'll call up the Pentagon and demand that they put me into the left seat of a C17 immediately if not sooner. With me having all of the heavy time I've got, I see no reason to waste my time flying anything lesser in the military fleet.

Do you guys think I've got a chance, or will I have to demean myself and fly a T1 first?

Note: Calvin's just joshing you army brats. I love you, and thank you for your service.

Hobbes

I'm normally much more comfortable reading vice writing on these forums. But since it's Sat. night and I'm drunk off my as$I figured what the hel1, these folks need to hear what the grotesque, hairy, Navy kid has to say.

Although I can't speak for C-17s precisely, I do know they they are deployed like friggin' crazy. If you really think you should get direct commission into military aviation; think again.

If you're Navy, plan on living a three year sea tour in which you're away from your family at least one full year during which you learn the true definition of the term "cruise sock". And while you're flying, consider the hazards of missiles, shipboard flying, and the inherent risks of flying really old, really sh1tty airframes well past their intended lifespans.

I have a lot of respect for pilots that work their way up through the civilian ranks. But if you wonder why us military guys don't want to pay our dues (again) flying at the regionals for $20K a year, you need to walk a mile in our shoes to comprehend. My wife has already been through the ringer and would much rather see me get a jobby job (shudder...) than to go through another 3 years of austerity. `Cause austerity is all I've had to offer her so far.

XXXOOO

 

[tubelo]

Enigma,

that CFI is qualified enough for a regional job, then why would an ex mil pilot expect or accept that fact that they need to spend time at a regional??? - this is my whole point. Put the pieces together. Nothing personal.

-skywiz

I think things need to be brought into perspective. Hiring is a function of the economy and market demand (read demand for pilots). All of which is cyclical. In 1998, with 8 years+ flying fixed wing in the military you could expect to go straight to the majors, but that is not the case right now. The industry fluctuates month to month. Heck, there are 15 year US Air pilots on the street right now.

That being said, you will have to make a decision based on the options you have. Skywiz, from your profile and previous posts, I am guessing you have just completed the FRS and possibly on your first tour. If I remember correctly your committment is something like 9 years (they change it all the time) from winging. The industry will turn over multiple times before you have the option of even considering a major or a regional. I applaud the fact that you are looking towards the future, but there is no way of telling what your options will be that far down the road. All you can do is do your job and hope that when you get out you are competitive for a major (whatever the definition of major will be then).

If you can go straight to a major, great! Who woudn't? If that is not an option due to the economy, then you will have to decide whether you are willing to take a pay cut and bide your time at a regional, or drop flying and take a real job (I personnaly passed up ~$100K in defense contracting...no regrets). Military pilots are making those decisions right now. Regionals are very competitve right now, with thousands of resumes on file. Sure the F-14 pilot and AV-8B pilot in my class at a regional are biding their time, waiting for the call (hopefully) from SWA or JB, but I just flew with a retired B-52 pilot who flew at my regional for 15 years after retiring from the AF. He got out when no majors were hiring and took the "temporary" regional job. When the majors were hiring, he had enough seniority to have a great lifestyle, so he decided to stay put. He had no regrets. My father-in-law retired from the AF in the early 90s as an F-4 pilot. Guess what he got stuck doing until he finally got hired by an LCC...CFIing in a cesna.

Its all about available options and the choices you make.

P.S. When you get into the right seat of an airline, it really doesn't matter what got you there. Your past will make for conversation on that 4 day trip, but nobody really cares too much. I have flown with some great CFI only captains and some sh!tty prior mil captains, and vice versa. There are all types in aviation, and I know from being a mil instructor that not all pilots in the mil should be pilots.

Good luck.

 

[pilotyip]

Great Post Tubelo

You hit it in the head, that nasty old supply and demand keeps getting the way of our plans.

 

[jonas71]

Make it stop

Oops,

I was looking for the professional pilot message board.

 

[RVR300]

Guys Guys Guys,

Forget the aircraft type for a moment. ATTITUDE is what gets you in.

Sure, SWA had for a while the "Luke Mafia" on the DB that let in all their buddies. But now the interview team is much much larger and diverse.

The problem is simple and applies to both civilian and military guys: If you come in assuming you know all the answers you'll quickly develop a reputation. Even if you flew the 737 before, you're now in a new airline, new airplane, new procedures, new personnel. Most importantly, a new way we do things.

If the colonel can't separate himself from whatever command he had and settle into yanking gear for someone else and learning the new ropes, then he'll have problems. Same thing applies if an RJ captain comes in and allows his experience level to end at the RJ and not realize this again is a new ball game.

Attitude my friends, if you're equiped with a bad one you're probably not going to get in in the first place.

I've flown great guys from the military and great guys from the civilan world. Also flew with some real rubes on both sides. From a ratio perspective it's a little more likely to get a pain in the neck colonel. I think that's because they're just used to having the last word.

 

[enigma]

....................
If you can go straight to a major, great! Who woudn't? If that is not an option due to the economy, then you will have to decide whether you are willing to take a pay cut and bide your time at a regional, or drop flying and take a real job (I personnaly passed up ~$100K in defense contracting...no regrets). Military pilots are making those decisions right now. Regionals are very competitve right now, with thousands of resumes on file. Sure the F-14 pilot and AV-8B pilot in my class at a regional are biding their time, waiting for the call (hopefully) from SWA or JB,

................
Its all about available options and the choices you make.
................

Tubelo,Great Post. That's what I was trying to say when I wrote this in my original reply.

Brother, I know too many military trained fighter pilots who started out their civilian career at the regional/commuter level to have any sympathy for you.

The original post came across like this. I'm worried that those RJ guys and all of their glass cockpit experience will be given a better shot than will I with my military t-prop time and I don't think that is fair. I don't think that I should have to go to a regional. My P3 time should get me straight to a major.

My point was that I know plenty of military trained pilots, even fighter pilots, who went to a regional. They did what they had to do and I don't remember hearing any whining. Matter of fact, once upon a time, I was in a 19 seat turboprop commuter initial gs with a Strike Eagle pilot, a B52 pilot and an Ardvark pilot. Those guys were glad to have a flying job. So was I.

regards,
enigma

 

[miles otoole]

Even fighter pilots? Maybe I am missing something, but wouldn't a P-3, T-1, C-130, or C-141 dude be a bit more qualified to transition to a a major airline than a fighter dude?