mil turboprop vs. civ jet experience

[1-tacan-rule]

clarification

I think all the military guys are trying to say is that if you compare two pilots:

LT Smith: gets out of military at 32 years old at first chance when committment is up. Flew for seven years @ 400hrs/year = 2800 hours. In that flying he spent half of his first tour and all of his second tour (5 years total) as PIC in demanding environment making tough operational decisions beyond the typical 121 operator.

Civilian Jones: ramp monkey since 18 getting all the time he can hanging out at FBO. Picks up CFI and continues to get time. Lucks into some twin time and 1200 hours later he gets hired by a regional. Flies 1000hrs/year CRJ (or similar). Now he's 28/29 with buukuu time (lets say 4000ish).

Should the civilian be looked at more favorably for a job because he has more time. It should all be balanced...he flew tons more but in less time....he has a bunch in 152s/172s light twin...he's flying pt to pt with main decisions being where to pick around weather.

The LTdid his time too...and just because he has less time does not make him a lessor product.

thats all. (sound of feet stepping off soapbox)

 

[Varmint]

I think all the military guys are trying to say is that if you compare two pilots:

LT Smith: gets out of military at 32 years old at first chance when committment is up. Flew for seven years @ 400hrs/year = 2800 hours. In that flying he spent half of his first tour and all of his second tour (5 years total) as PIC in demanding environment making tough operational decisions beyond the typical 121 operator.

Civilian Jones: ramp monkey since 18 getting all the time he can hanging out at FBO. Picks up CFI and continues to get time. Lucks into some twin time and 1200 hours later he gets hired by a regional. Flies 1000hrs/year CRJ (or similar). Now he's 28/29 with buukuu time (lets say 4000ish).

Should the civilian be looked at more favorably for a job because he has more time. It should all be balanced...he flew tons more but in less time....he has a bunch in 152s/172s light twin...he's flying pt to pt with main decisions being where to pick around weather.

The LTdid his time too...and just because he has less time does not make him a lessor product.

thats all. (sound of feet stepping off soapbox)

There are tons more civilian applicants out there than military. Interviews seem to be balanced between military, 121, 135, civilian. In a totally fair environment, interview classes would be filled based on the percentage of applications received from each group.

Military guys have to worry about dog fighting and other decisions that I don't have a clue about. However, civilian pilots have experience flying passengers, dealing with passengers, and dealing with situations that occur in normal line operations (ie medical emergencies...etc) In addition, civilians are used to the "fire hose" approach to learning a new aircraft as opposed to having an extended period of time to learn an aircraft.

With that said, the military puts out quality pilots and should be given equal preferences to a civilian pilot. There are arguments out there that military guys should be given preference because of their service to the country. Nobody forced anyone to join the military, it was a choice. All of us civilians (not just pilots) chipped in to pay for your training and your salaries by paying our taxes every year. While I appreciate and admire the decision to serve our country, I don't feel it should be a free ticket to hop to the front of the line for an interview at a quality company at the end of your tour of service.

 

[satpak77]

mil v. civ

jesus chr1st when will this argument ever die

life goes on

 

[enigma]

For anyone who wants to take a shot...

I was wondering for future reference if there is a possibility that minimums might change for getting into the majors. For example, instead of 1000 hrs pic turbine, could it change to 1000 hrs pic turbine jet time?

Reason I ask is that with this recent explosion of the CRJ / ERJs and more "regional guys" getting experience with EFIS / Glass panels / jet time, would it hurt guys ex military guys who have pic time in C-130s, P-3s and E-2s?

If mins did change and majors required glass experience and jet time, are ex mil turboprop pilots supposed to go get nickel and dime wages at a regional prior to getting picked up at a major?

No one is saying someone is too good to fly a regional jet. Lets take a look at requirements (these days) to get hired by a regional... mabye 1200-1400 hrs(200 or so multi piston I believe)... Heck, I know guys that get that many hours in 2 years after getting their private license.

You are saying a guy with 2 yrs civilian experience flying pistons is just as qualified as a military fixed wing pilot with 10 yrs turbine/pic experience not to mention a strenuous training program? In other words, an ex mil pilot should only expect to get a job that a 2 year civilian pilot could get?
Before I joined the Navy, I was a CFI with about 1000 hrs and there is a reason why mil pilots are able to go directly to a major. I didn't say it was their RIGHT to go, but I believe after 8-10 years experience, they are well qualified for that position just like a regional captain would be.

Skywiz. Sorry, but you need to re-read your posts. I'm short of time, so I will try and make this short: I don't think that your posted words are congruent with your thoughts on the subject. You post one thought and come back and argue another. I did not argue the qualification point with you. I only objected to your implication that a military trained pilot should be able to bypass the regionals.

You are trying to compare an 8 year military vet with a fresh out of flight school CFI. Let me give you a better comparison. Me. I've flown professionally for the last 17 years. The last 14 years, I was employed by either a scheduled passenger carrier, or by a well-funded corporate jet operator. I've flown PEOPLE, in t-props and jets for 14 years and have accumulated a bunch of time, and landings. My Learjet employer flew short hops, and I worked there six years. Just like those low time mil pilots you are defending, my years of service are high, my time was low. In the other eight years of my turbine career, I've flown airliners ranging from a Beech1300 to an 164 seat MD80. During my tenure in both scheduled and Part91 corporate, I've attended the best training money could buy. I've done the altitude chamber, etc. (as an aside, only if I'd been intelligent enough to get the bachelors early instead of flying, I'd probably be a Major Captain instead of a LCC Captain)

I'm the guy you are competing against when you go for SWA, B6, FedEx, etc. Not the RJ pilot only two years out of flight school. Notice, that I didn't say that I was better qualified. I only want to make you think about your question and the subsequent follow up.

regards,
enigma

 

[pilotyip]

On the button

Enigma hit it on the button, airlines hire pilots who they have a high confidence in that they will become a successful employee. Airlines have had a high sucess rate with mil pilots, but they also have a high sucess rate with pilots with lots of 121 PIC time or TJ PIC time. That is what you need to be in the ball park at the majors (pun)

 

[skywiz]

and the thread continues..

Enigma,

You say I bring up one point in a post and then argue another. First of all, I initially asked a question in general about competitiveness of tprop time to jet time.

You come back and think in my post that just because I hope to avoid a gig at a regional, I think I am too good to fly an RJ. And then you think my post is flamebait.

Quote by Enigma:
" I did not argue the qualification point with you. I only objected to your implication that a military trained pilot should be able to bypass the regionals."

In response to this, I respond to why I think an ex mil pilot should in most cases be able to bypass the reg. carriers. My argument that military pilots are able to bypass regionals is based on experience gained in active duty flying. This is called "backing up" my statement. (in response to your reply)

What I don't understand is why you write a whole page on your qualifications and what you have flown. While I agree that you have great experience and that you are obviously highly qualified, what is relevent about your quals to the latter argument I was responding to? I never at anytime was refering to you or your experience. I never said you weren't qualified for any type of job. This has nothing to do with you.

Quote from Enigma: "You are trying to compare an 8 year military vet with a fresh out of flight school CFI. Let me give you a better comparison."

(actually a fresh out of flight school CFI is not qualified to go to a regional...I was talking about a CFI with 1200-1400 hrs. - if you are going to respond, at least quote me correctly)

But, back to the quote, you are absolutely right! I AM NOT comparing an 8 yr mil vet with YOU! I am comparing an ex mil pilot with someone who is competitive for a regional. (Hence a 1400 hr CFI!) If you agree that a CFI does not compare to an 8 yr mil pilot (like you said) AND that CFI is qualified enough for a regional job, then why would an ex mil pilot expect or accept that fact that they need to spend time at a regional??? - this is my whole point. Put the pieces together. Nothing personal.

-skywiz

 

[OUjetdrvr]

Skywiz,

Just remember, experience in this industry is measured on FLIGHT TIME not "passage of time"! In your 8-10 yrs in the mil how many shore/ground billets did you do? You definately were not flying all the time! So in that respect, yes, a 2 yr civ pilot is just about as well experienced as a 10 yr mil flyer. Flying light twins in crappy weather with little or no radar and/or icing conditions will build experience in no time!

I am a regional pilot, who over four years, has flown with many prior mil. guys that made me cringe with their "piloting" skills! But I have flown with many who were just fine as well. I am not trying to bash you , just let you know that just because your mil doesnt alwasy mean your above all else! There are obviously good and bad in all sorts of pilot groups. Please dont generalize...There are many Reg. Capts and senior FOs that are just as qualified...just without the connections afforded some. Good luck!

 

[OUjetdrvr]

Oh I forgot one critical and ugly point.

IN light of the current trend in the industry, with majors shrinking and regionals and LCCs expanding. You may have no choice but lend your experienced piloting skills to any number of regionals currently hiring!

 

[enigma]

But, back to the quote, you are absolutely right! I AM NOT comparing an 8 yr mil vet with YOU! I am comparing an ex mil pilot with someone who is competitive for a regional. (Hence a 1400 hr CFI!) If you agree that a CFI does not compare to an 8 yr mil pilot (like you said) AND that CFI is qualified enough for a regional job, then why would an ex mil pilot expect or accept that fact that they need to spend time at a regional??? - this is my whole point. Put the pieces together. Nothing personal.

-skywiz

Again wiz, I'm going to suggest that you are arguing two different issues. You wrote, "I am comparing an ex mil pilot with someone who is competitive for a regional."
I respond. YOUR FIRST POST WASN'T ABOUT REGIONAL HIRING, IT WAS ABOUT MAJOR HIRING. I wrote about my experience to show you that I was the competition for a major job, not the 1400 hour CFI. I was, and am, discussing your points as they pertain to MAJOR airline hiring.

Let me leave it at this. Are you more qualified to Captain an MD80, or 737 than am I?

Now, go back and read your first post. I have and I still see it as an arrogant statement.

Also, nothing personal.

regards,
enigma

 

[FedExpert]

Don't you hardcore civies worry. Before too many years if we continue this downward spiral in the majors, you will have it all to yourselves. Few self respecting military guys will give up thier good military pay flying or options in a non-flying job to fly for a regional or regional-level pay with no good prospects. Just because you have the financial backing to pay for your ratings, earn little and survive for years on that, and pay your way through any check ride busts, doesn't mean it will be worth it in the end.

 

[OUjetdrvr]

OK I was trying to be civil but I will respond with this. I am sorry to say your slightly mistaken sir. You "major" pilots are pricing yourself out of the business! Its the nature of the beast, ECONOMICS. And I am not taking about Majors to Regionals but Majors to LCCs too! Its no fault of the regional scrappy just poor timing on many aspects. The system is simply resetting itself, the scales are being tared! You describe most civilian pilots as having silver spoons in their mouths. Uhm, "Hello pot, this is the kettle" By the way I have never heard of buying my through check ride busts, but then I always come prepared!
If we had a little more support from the big kids on the block during contract negotiations maybe we could help "preserve the profession" instead of being kicked in the teeth and blamed for the current direction of the industry.
Respectfully submitted,

 

[TheTIC]

Stay in the military

The way pilot pay scales are going, stay in the military. I thought going to the civilian world would mean about 150% increase in pay (after a few years at the bottom of the pay scale). Now, I don't think I will make more take home the I did as an 0-4. Oh, plus the retirements at the airlines are all going away (probably).

So learn Arabic and decide on your favorite 120 degree country and stay in the military.

Oh, by the way will anyone hire me

 

[FedExpert]

Sooners yeah, regionals no. Its just not worth it. Your are also right about the economics. Business will be able to recuit cheaper pilots while guys insist that we are making too much/enough and don't fight for more. That is why I am rooting for Delta pilots, the only ones in this business who still have backbone. And, not to mention, until Kit Darby and Co stop telling guys that everything is good and getting better.

 

[:-)]

I have over 8 years in a Part25 airplanes. I think I'll call up the Pentagon and demand that they put me into the left seat of a C17 immediately if not sooner. With me having all of the heavy time I've got, I see no reason to waste my time flying anything lesser in the military fleet.

Do you guys think I've got a chance, or will I have to demean myself and fly a T1 first?

And another thing, I don't want to start out at the bottom of the rank list either, I demand to be a "street" General Officer. There, now I feel better.

bottoms up,
Calvin






Note: Calvin's just joshing you army brats. I love you, and thank you for your service.

Hobbes

 

[Dizel8]

While you are at it, ask for a raise!

As for me, I will not acept anything less than Space Shuttle Commander!