Midwest looking for 50 seat A/C

[n757st]

Compared to whom? Apples to apples.

Air Wisconsin, but it is off topic and I apologize for bringing it up. Who ever gets the flying will likely be taking flying from skyway, it really sucks. And while AWAC might have a hanger, this also might be a moot point as Midwest is trying to lease part of thier hanger, so really anyone could move in pretty quick and start operations there. We will all just have to wait and see until late summer when they will likely decide.

 

[mckpickle]

Air Wisconsin, but it is off topic and I apologize for bringing it up. Who ever gets the flying will likely be taking flying from skyway, it really sucks. And while AWAC might have a hanger, this also might be a moot point as Midwest is trying to lease part of thier hanger, so really anyone could move in pretty quick and start operations there. We will all just have to wait and see until late summer when they will likely decide.

True, it does suck for the Skyway guys. I think a wholey owned should use it's assets before outsourcing. I also think CAL should never have sold us off. As far as Air Wisky I'm not sure what pay scales you're looking at however XJT's are about 2 bucks more per hour for captains. The FO rates favor AW in the first 3 years and then match. HOWEVER, XJT gets much more of a 401K match, more per diem. I'm not sure of the vacatio proviion in their contract however I have 1 week this month and was scheduled to fly 5 days. The 4 day I'm picking up on Friday is 21 hours of overtime pay. The cost of our contract is not in the pay rates alone but mostly the work rules.

I'm not trying to brag or pull this whole my airline is better bullshat. What I''m saying is that it IS POSSIBLE to raise the bar, not lower it. It increase the good service you provide and not kill it. So all those guys taking pay cuts or flying 70 seat a/c for 50 seat prices are crazy. Stand up for yourselves and the profession for christ sake!

 

[ultrarunner]

Maybe the 25 airplanes are intended to replace the ENTIRE Skyway fleet and just lease the whole commuter unit instead of owning it...

My guess is that some 717 flying is going to get replaced also.

 

[BoilerUP]

So than why have so many taken pay cuts or accepted sub-par contracts then?

Because they didn't know then what they do know now. Reference Comair, Air Wisconsin/UAL, even Expressjet/CAL. Your new contract didn't make you "too expensive" for CAL...

Mesa accepted a "sub-par contract" in part to kill & scope anti-union Freedom. Their contract comes up soon, so lets all support JA and company and make sure they get what they deserve. CHQ accepted a "sub-par" contract (to some, at least 70/90 rates) in part to kill & scope non-union Republic. But you knew that already.

The arguing about payrates & shiat is stupid, especially when it refers to Skyway and the Midwest RFP. AWAC pilots got a pretty good raise a couple months ago due to our industry average adjustment in part to XJT's new contract. I acknowledge that and say "thank you!"...but hopefully, a couple months after June 28th "the bar" for 50 seat rates will be reset and this whole frickin' discussion will be *moot*.

 

[punkpilot48]

but hopefully, a couple months after June 28th "the bar" for 50 seat rates will be reset and this whole frickin' discussion will be mute.

WHat happens june 28th?

 

[IdRtherBsailing]

WHat happens june 28th?

AWAC's arbitration to get back the old contract.

 

[punkpilot48]

Ah I see. Good luck.

 

[Lear70]

First, don't look for PCL to be a player in the bid. Their performance hasn't exactly been "stellar", especially with the mass exodus of most of their experienced core Captain group to SWA, JB, airTran, FedEx, netJets, etc. Add to that I've been told that Pinnacle keeps bidding high-cost comparable to current rates from Northwest on a fee-per-departure level, and you have two reasons why PCL probably won't be a player. PCL has one of THE lowest operating costs of the aircraft, but Phil T is a wee too proud of his product evidently.

Next, I'm not getting this whole idea of fleet diversification between types. Maybe I'm missing something, but if they're going to replace some of the 328 flying they want to get but can't, why not replace them ALL with a common fleet type?

CRJ CASM sucks, so does the hourly operating cost. It's doubtful Midwest will like ANY of those prices; even if they price it to operate it themselves the sticker shock will probably give them a second thought to look at MESA's rates. That said, I don't know what the 328's are running them on a CASM or hourly operating cost basis for comparison...

How are Midwest mainline's financials to try to pull it off themselves?

 

[pilotmyf]

My guess is that some 717 flying is going to get replaced also.

That will go over like a fart in church.

 

[pilotmyf]

Next, I'm not getting this whole idea of fleet diversification between types. Maybe I'm missing something, but if they're going to replace some of the 328 flying they want to get but can't, why not replace them ALL with a common fleet type?

Good Question...

 

[appendix]

I think that Midwest will have to renew the 1900s leases before they expire: they can't afford not to as they try to get financing on a few Airbuses to replace the MD80s.

Once the MD80s have been replaced then MEH finances will be focused on getting a one type fleet for Connect in both MKE and MCI.

In the meantime the 1900s are just so cheap to operate that no bidder out there will be able to match the low operating costs and work load of the current 1900 fleet.

 

[mckpickle]

I think that Midwest will have to renew the 1900s leases before they expire: they can't afford not to as they try to get financing on a few Airbuses to replace the MD80s.

Once the MD80s have been replaced then MEH finances will be focused on getting a one type fleet for Connect in both MKE and MCI.

In the meantime the 1900s are just so cheap to operate that no bidder out there will be able to match the low operating costs and work load of the current 1900 fleet.

Except that there are quite a few people who will not fly on one of those "propeller planes". "we could see the pilots!"

Paxs are idiots!

 

[Superpilot92]

The simple FACT is none of us know what we are talking about and we wont really know till after it happens. Keep flying safe and have fun and try to enjoy the ride. Just my unofficial 2 cents

 

[ERJFO]

We're not undercutting anyone. We have the best contract in the industry jacka$$. We are not whoring ourselves out to gain flying.

Truer words have never been said.

 

[avrodriver]

So than why have so many taken pay cuts or accepted sub-par contracts then?

When AWAC signed on with AirTran to do their feed we had a contract with payrates as well as work rules that not a single regional has in place today.

Why did we lose the AirTran contract, not because of our rates...they were already set, nobody underbid us...h.ell nobody even replaced us.

Why did we lose the United flying? I hardly doubt it was because our payrates are to high. They threatened us with our jobs and we bought it.

The cuts we took could have been easily been replaced with cuts from the owners profits but why do that when you could come to labor first.

When United came back for more cuts did managment even bother asking us for more??? No. They knew they had destroyed one of the best contracts out there on a bluff. It wasn't going to happen twice and they da.mn well weren't going to let the cuts come from their own pockets.

They came up with plan B and got the h.ell out.

Why have we taken cuts or accepted sub par contracts??

Cause we've all been punked. CoEx included....I don't give a sh*t who's in the top three. The top three are still all crap compared to what they could be if they didn't all roll over.

Blame who you want to blame...whether it was by concessions or through weak TA's shopped as the best you can expect to get, no one should be bragging about being number one a this point.

Keep believing you alone control the fate of a multi million dollar profit making machine. Take a one dollar pay cut times a 1,000 pilots flying 1000 hours a year and what do you get? A million dollars.

You believe a company can't afford to pay out an extra million to make 10 or 20 or 30 million and would rather just walk away from it all. Our labor rates are a very very small piece of the puzzle.

For those of you that don't believe this make sure you run and tell the others just like management wants you to.

I'm done jacking this thread...sorry.

 

[ERJFO]

I agree with avrodriver.

Pilot costs at the regional level DO NOT make a difference in whether a company can place a competitive bid or not. Aircraft payments/leases are a much larger piece of that puzzle, and a buck or even three per hour difference in hourly rates isn't a make-or-break deal. Besides, Midwest's standards of service are so high Mesa doesn't have a chance in this RFP. Not a dig on the pilot group, just stating facts.

All that being said, I seriously doubt anybody wants Skyway pilots to lose jobs over this. The RJ would almost have to be additionaly frequency for the 717s, replace or supplement the 328Js on high-load routes, or new market expansion.

IF THAT IS TRUE - Why do all RJ pilots not work for the same contract then? Why don't companines just agree to contracts without negotiations? Why is MESA able to place more "competitive bids"?

AND IF THAT IS TRUE - Qualitiy and Service (which is expensive) DOES make a difference in weather a company can make a competitive bid or not. You are going to be more competitive if you are run like Mesa as compared to ExpressJet. (Mckpickle has listed these differences in other posts very well if you would like clarification I'm sure he'll do it agian)

 

[Hutchman]

XJT up 9% today with nothing in the press. Something is up, more to come.........................

 

[Master Shake]

My guess is that some 717 flying is going to get replaced also.

More like "augmented" if anything.

 

[BankAccount=0$]

As it stands right now the RFQ for the Midwest flying remains just that, a request. Will XJT secure the flying? who knows. The bottom line is that the flying should go to their wholly owned carrier SkyWay. Unfortunatly they seem to be unwilling to invest the capital into SkyWay to buy/lease new aircraft. If XJT should secure the flying I would expect ExpressJet to offer preferential interviews to the displaced (if there are any) pilots from SkyWay for employment at XJT if they should so desire. I hope the SkyWay guys get some sort of win out of this situation as nobody wants to see pilots out of work.

 

[Lear70]

When AWAC signed on with AirTran to do their feed we had a contract with payrates as well as work rules that not a single regional has in place today.

Why did we lose the AirTran contract, not because of our rates...they were already set, nobody underbid us...h.ell nobody even replaced us.

That's because airTran didn't like running RJ's.

You lost the airTran contract because of cost... to them. Pilot are only a small percentage of the CASM, but flying RJ's is a losing proposition unless you're connecting them into a hub with yields that support the loss.

airTran made somewhere in the neighborhood of .02 cents per mile in yield for passenger revenue last year; that came directly from the Chief and I'm sure was in the SEC filings as well. When the RJ contract is costing you .03 or .04 cents more than your revenue,,, well, you do the math.

The d*mn things are just money losers if you're not connecting pax onto an aircraft where you're going to make $200 per pax in yield ($1,500 to $2,000 round-trip flights to Europe or Asia). It has nothing to do with pilot pay or flight attendant pay or even mechanic pay; combined they represent about 10-12% of the operating cost of the aircraft. It's all about engine reserves, scheduled maintenance, rotables, fuel, and available seats (or lack thereof in a 50-seater).