Midwest has more than one foot in the ground

[CitationLover]

And that is what the FAA uses as the default answer to an inconclusive investigation.

The fact is that while climbing at V2+10 or 165knots, the rate of deceleration to 156 or stall speed was too rapid for the crew/engines to resond no matter who was flying. That combined with the loss of pitch authority from the partially severed/damaged flight controls made it impossible to fly out of. So instead of grounding the entire DC9-10/30 fleet they chose to use the default pilot error ruling. Our pilot group and ALPA have fought with the feds for years regarding the inaccuracy of this particular investigation...

So like I said...get your facts straight.

Even TH, to his credit, went to bat with the FAA for the deceased crew.

But again, the accident the republic schmo mentions, happened in 1985. Was he even born then?

Those classy 170 pilots with their guppy killer stickers on their flight bags.

 

[Donsa320]

And that is what the FAA uses as the default answer to an inconclusive investigation.

The fact is that while climbing at V2+10 or 165knots, the rate of deceleration to 156 or stall speed was too rapid for the crew/engines to resond no matter who was flying. That combined with the loss of pitch authority from the partially severed/damaged flight controls made it impossible to fly out of. So instead of grounding the entire DC9-10/30 fleet they chose to use the default pilot error ruling. Our pilot group and ALPA have fought with the feds for years regarding the inaccuracy of this particular investigation...]

That is an interesting take on that old accidednt. I was sent to the public hearing as an ALPA observer only, since MEH was not ALPA at the time. At that time the gist of the investigation was why did a huge side slip angle develope late in the accident sequence. It semed that either the crew swapped rudder input and applied full right rudder after correctly having applied left rudder during rotation. That question was never answered other than the NTSB guessing that the crew did it. The compressor parts had penetrated and broken through the compressor case at high velocity. Pratt and Whitney mantained that all the parts went to the right of the tail. Yet parts were found on the LEFT side of the take-off runway, 19R. Pratt said that the parts flew so high up that the strong west wind blew them over to the left side of the runway. And yet there were holes in the vertical stabilizer with traces of ferrous metal on them. The only ferrous metal flying around back there were engine parts. I felt that perhaps the rudder control package was what was damaged. None of that was persued by the board. ALPA Safety had no voice at the hearing.
The fact that the engine overhaul agency in MIA had installed an obsolete style spacer which then failed seemed to be more important.
Loss of elevator control authority was not a consideration back then so I cannot comment on that but rudder reversal was a factor. The yaw angle became so great so fast that the left engine compressor stalled so violently that it self-destructed before the airplane hit the ground.

 

[Wesb737fo]

Even TH, to his credit, went to bat with the FAA for the deceased crew.

But again, the accident the republic schmo mentions, happened in 1985. Was he even born then?

Those classy 170 pilots with their guppy killer stickers on their flight bags.

For real!.....guys have guppy killer stickers on their flight bags? I haven't seen this. Seriously low class. If you have this on your flight bag, I wouldn't advertise it....especially if you want a ride somewhere.

 

[donkeykong]

For real!.....guys have guppy killer stickers on their flight bags? I haven't seen this. Seriously low class. If you have this on your flight bag, I wouldn't advertise it....especially if you want a ride somewhere.

There was an RAH guy on this website that had an avatar that was basically a picture of an E170 in Midwest colors. Underneath the picture it read "Mad Dog Killer."

I can't remember his name. I think he's since removed it. But some of these guys just don't see the big picture.

He may as well have it read "Mainline Job Killer"

 

[dh2981]

deleted

 

[MCOE175]

And that is what the FAA uses as the default answer to an inconclusive investigation.

The fact is that while climbing at V2+10 or 165knots, the rate of deceleration to 156 or stall speed was too rapid for the crew/engines to resond no matter who was flying. That combined with the loss of pitch authority from the partially severed/damaged flight controls made it impossible to fly out of. So instead of grounding the entire DC9-10/30 fleet they chose to use the default pilot error ruling. Our pilot group and ALPA have fought with the feds for years regarding the inaccuracy of this particular investigation...

So like I said...get your facts straight.

Can you tell me what it was like being on this plane when it happened...
Funny thing... I don't see anything mentioning you in the investigation!

HMMMM...

I am sorry, you are right.

 

[Colonel Savage]

There was an RAH guy on this website that had an avatar that was basically a picture of an E170 in Midwest colors. Underneath the picture it read "Mad Dog Killer."

I can't remember his name. I think he's since removed it. But some of these guys just don't see the big picture.

He may as well have it read "Mainline Job Killer"

That would be McNugget, aka McButtNugget, a Total Tool. One of those who takes pleasure in cutting the throat of his own career expectations.

Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[FSIGRAD]

For real!.....guys have guppy killer stickers on their flight bags? I haven't seen this. Seriously low class. If you have this on your flight bag, I wouldn't advertise it....especially if you want a ride somewhere.

This "guppy killer" sticker thing is an urban myth. I have flown with hundreds of crews and never seen one.

 

[jravi8tor]

This "guppy killer" sticker thing is an urban myth. I have flown with hundreds of crews and never seen one.

I've actually seen them; it's been a few years know, but when going through O'hare when RAH started doing UAL feed there were a few pilots that displayed these stickers on their bags in distaste!

 

[FSIGRAD]

I've actually seen them; it's been a few years know, but when going through O'hare when RAH started doing UAL feed there were a few pilots that displayed these stickers on their bags in distaste!

Okay an actual eyewitness sighting. What does this sticker look like? A guppie with a slash thru it, (ala ghostbusters) Just the phrase "guppie killer" or is E-170 in the design also. I'm really just curious I have never seen or heard of this from anyone at RAH.

 

[jravi8tor]

Okay an actual eyewitness sighting. What does this sticker look like? A guppie with a slash thru it, (ala ghostbusters) Just the phrase "guppie killer" or is E-170 in the design also. I'm really just curious I have never seen or heard of this from anyone at RAH.

If memory serves it was an E-170 with Guppy above the picture and the word Killer below.

 

[cheeseheadcrj]

If memory serves it was an E-170 with Guppy above the picture and the word Killer below.

Thats the way I remember it as well, very poor taste by those who had them.

 

[Scapegoat]

I have seen the stickers at ORD too.
The fact of the matter is that the E-170 is a Guppy Killer. Strictly speaking airplane vs airplane. It can offer more frequency in a comfortable mainline cabin operating at a much reduced cost, (labor included).

Does it take mainline jobs? I suppose yes, but nothing is stopping United Mainline from operating these aircraft other than labor costs. Same with Midwest. The UA or MidEX pilots are not going to fly it for $80 something an hour so what happens next? They contract the work out.
Operating costs killed the 737 for United. You cant have 2 midsize aircraft, (737 & A320), and be cost competitive in this market. They had 5 different types operating, (still do). Can you imagine the sim costs after a 747 retiree after everyone else moves up? It has to be huge!

However, should the pilots that fly these E170's watch what they say.....You bet. But the very provoking nature of this message board (and industry), will always over power common sense.

Good luck to MidEx'ers. Dont know what will happen in the next couple of years but a consolidation or merger seems to be the way to go if you want to hang on. SG.

 

[hockeypilot44]

I have seen the stickers at ORD too.
The fact of the matter is that the E-170 is a Guppy Killer. Strictly speaking airplane vs airplane. It can offer more frequency in a comfortable mainline cabin operating at a much reduced cost, (labor included).

Does it take mainline jobs? I suppose yes, but nothing is stopping United Mainline from operating these aircraft other than labor costs. Same with Midwest. The UA or MidEX pilots are not going to fly it for $80 something an hour so what happens next? They contract the work out.
Operating costs killed the 737 for United. You cant have 2 midsize aircraft, (737 & A320), and be cost competitive in this market. They had 5 different types operating, (still do). Can you imagine the sim costs after a 747 retiree after everyone else moves up? It has to be huge!

However, should the pilots that fly these E170's watch what they say.....You bet. But the very provoking nature of this message board (and industry), will always over power common sense.

Good luck to MidEx'ers. Dont know what will happen in the next couple of years but a consolidation or merger seems to be the way to go if you want to hang on. SG.

Why can't mainline fly these aircraft and pay its pilots what it pays to fly a DC-9 or 717? They're all about the same size. Why do the pilots have to make so little? Regional pilots are so used to being broke that $80/hour for a captain seems like a lot of money. The first officers only see the left seat. They don't care that they are making poverty wages because they think that left seat is around the corner. You think mainline pilots are selfish because we want to fly the same aircraft for twice as much. Management loves it that we fight with each other instead of with them. They use us against each other.

 

[FSIGRAD]

I'm on the lookout for one of these stickers. I'll be the first to admit it's in bad taste if I do find one.