Mesaba VS. Pinnacle

[BighitterLama]

And....?

 

[n32jk]

NuGuy,

You said it exactly right.

The choice is quite simple. Either Mesaba and/or Pinnacle give up super seniority rights to NWA pilots for these jets in the event of a flowback, or the jets simply go to Compass where mainline furloughees have rights to 100% of the seats in the event of future furloughs.

I believe Compass was created due to the current Airlinks not being remotely interested in giving up super seniority rights to furloughed NWA pilots in exchange for these jets. NWA mainline wouldn't give up the scope relief if there weren't jobs for current and future furloughs. Compass was the answer.

The decision remains the same. If Pinnacle / Mesaba ever want to see anything over 50 seats, they will need to give super seniority rights to furloughed NWA pilots (with the exception of possibly placing 36 aircraft at Mesaba). I would think NWA management would rather place these with Compass as well for 2 reasons. 1- it will lower the longevity rates on the equipment and 2- it will keep the 36 jet option open at Mesaba for future "pilot whipping" actions by management. If either Mesaba or Pinnacle agree to super seniority rights in the event of future mainline furloughs, the jets will come with it. The choice is theirs.

Before some of you go off the handle, I couldn't care less either way. I don't have any desire to flow back to either Mesaba or Pinnacle. Just providing some info.

Whooaaa here.... providing positions for the aircraft is one area I will not disagree with. However the seniority within any company mainline pilots went to would be negotiated between the MEC's and the receiving carrier. You might get a Capt seat somewhere, but could end up at or near the bottom of the carrier's seniority list. Permanent reserve for 5-10 years sitting around at the bottom of the pay scale. Not a very attractive proposition for someone who had already set his sites on 100K in 4-5 years. Usually a 1 year for 2-4 longevity is the insertion critera but that is negotiable. Also the furloughees have relatively little longevity to start dividing on...So there probably would not be a huge influx of NW pilots running after CRJ900's


My predicition.... First of all NW has probably already decided where these aircraft are going. Plain and simple...they are helping 9E and XJ management teams badger their pilot groups. Now history shows that NW shrank 9E down to a little over 200 pilots before the growth with CRJ's. Even now the average median seniority at 9E is a bit UNDER 2 years. Basically everyone is at the bottom of the food chain there. It looks like NW is helping XJ do the same thing. If I were a betting man I would predict that XJ gets all or half of the 900's along with the 15 parked 200's.

9E might even lose about 30 or so of the 200's to XJ. This would open up the "fragementation" can of worms allowing 9E pilots to ask for seniority integration at XJ.

As for the options being converted tp Q400's. It certainly could happen, but that would be another carrot dangled at the pilots of every regional. Right now the Saabs are probably the prop choice. A larger prop would make a lot of sense but the industry is to marketing driven right now. I think the fleet will be near even with a lot of low seniority pilots at each airline. What more could management teams ask for.

Another scenario. NW is trying to reshape the face of airline wages. They scrap both XJ and 9E just to prove a point to labor. That would likely ruin NW. They probably think replacing the two carriers completely is doable. It would be at the expense of a lot of feed for a long time.



NOW............
9e management is pushing for a contract that will allow them to start up other non union carriers. 9E also wants an inferior CBA that will let them keep rolling in the cash. XJ has cash on hand.....I think the real war is for who is trying to end up buying/being compass. Trenery is salivating at the thought of a brand new airline with bigger aircraft flown at minimum wage by 1500 hour capts and 200 FO's right out of some academy. Foley salivates every day that he counts the 100 plus million he got away with..... They both want a brand new cash cow to drain....



Let the games begin......

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Although I agree with some of your points, I have to point out that NWA management is not intentionally attacking pilots personally. They are finding out what are the limits of what they can do in the legal system. Employee's and creditors are casualties of that process.

 

[XJohXJ]

Although I agree with some of your points, I have to point out that NWA management is not intentionally attacking pilots personally. They are finding out what are the limits of what they can do in the legal system. Employee's and creditors are casualties of that process.

OH PLEASE!! GMAFB. I used to think that you had some reasoning hidden in your inflammatory statements, but making lame excuses for the life-crushing evil deeds of Red Tail management, at any level, is just pathetic.

 

[n32jk]

Although I agree with some of your points, I have to point out that NWA management is not intentionally attacking pilots personally. They are finding out what are the limits of what they can do in the legal system. Employee's and creditors are casualties of that process.

Well I agree...not attacking pilots personally...just all labor groups. again nothing personal...we just want you all as close to minimum wage as possible. As for one trade group. I think several years ago when the mechanics gave up scope for pay..the stage was set to destroy them. I think that may not have been personal...but certainly vindictive. Emboldened with the success of stomping the mechanics down, I think alll labor groups were next.

 

[profit]

NuGuy,

You said it exactly right.

Mesaba can operate up to 36 76 seaters without giving up 1/2 Capt and 1/2 FO seats. Pinnacle would have to give up the seats to get any of these jets.

The choice is quite simple. Either Mesaba and/or Pinnacle give up super seniority rights to NWA pilots for these jets in the event of a flowback, or the jets simply go to Compass where mainline furloughees have rights to 100% of the seats in the event of future furloughs.

I believe Compass was created due to the current Airlinks not being remotely interested in giving up super seniority rights to furloughed NWA pilots in exchange for these jets. NWA mainline wouldn't give up the scope relief if there weren't jobs for current and future furloughs. Compass was the answer.

.

Respectfully, I must call BS on that. Compass was created as a future potential whipsaw ONLY because NWA pilots allowed it. Those aircraft, seats and jobs should have all been on the MAINLINE PROPERTY. NWA pilots have allowed just one more future airlink.

I personally would welcome a flowback if 9E, XJ, and NWA all had a single seniority list.

 

[xjcaptain]

9E might even lose about 30 or so of the 200's to XJ. This would open up the "fragementation" can of worms allowing 9E pilots to ask for seniority integration at XJ.

Not to stir the pot, but I can pretty much guarantee that that will never happen again at XJ. You might recall that a few years back we took on some 9E people when they were shrinking and we were growing. It was done with the written agreement that if the tables were turned 9E would do the same for us. When the time came, they did not honor the agreement. Everybody had lots of excuses, but bottom line nothing happened. We won't get burned again. Some will say that we are all ALPA brothers etc, but bottom line we took the high road the first time and did the right thing, ant it hurt quite a few people at XJ. ALPA and the 9E group choose not to honor the agreement when the tables turned later. People remember these things. Actions have consequences.

 

[Schwanker]

Whooaaa here.... providing positions for the aircraft is one area I will not disagree with. However the seniority within any company mainline pilots went to would be negotiated between the MEC's and the receiving carrier. You might get a Capt seat somewhere, but could end up at or near the bottom of the carrier's seniority list. Permanent reserve for 5-10 years sitting around at the bottom of the pay scale. Not a very attractive proposition for someone who had already set his sites on 100K in 4-5 years. Usually a 1 year for 2-4 longevity is the insertion critera but that is negotiable. Also the furloughees have relatively little longevity to start dividing on...So there probably would not be a huge influx of NW pilots running after CRJ900's

No arguement here. I certainly didn't mean to imply that furloughees flowing back to these seats would bid senior. You're right, this would have to be worked out. You're also correct that there absolutely will not be a huge influx of NW pilots running after CR900's.

Have a good one!

 

[Schwanker]

Respectfully, I must call BS on that. Compass was created as a future potential whipsaw ONLY because NWA pilots allowed it. Those aircraft, seats and jobs should have all been on the MAINLINE PROPERTY. NWA pilots have allowed just one more future airlink.

I personally would welcome a flowback if 9E, XJ, and NWA all had a single seniority list.

Agree. Ideally these jets would stay at mainline. The problem is our leadership at ALPA was weak and scared. They would do anything for the pension and had no problem selling the little guy down the river. In an effort to save face, Compass was negotiated to provide jobs to current and future furloughs.

When scope relief was first being discussed, XJ and 9E would have nothing to do with a flowback. Compass was a way around this.

 

[n32jk]

Not to stir the pot, but I can pretty much guarantee that that will never happen again at XJ. You might recall that a few years back we took on some 9E people when they were shrinking and we were growing. It was done with the written agreement that if the tables were turned 9E would do the same for us. When the time came, they did not honor the agreement. Everybody had lots of excuses, but bottom line nothing happened. We won't get burned again. Some will say that we are all ALPA brothers etc, but bottom line we took the high road the first time and did the right thing, ant it hurt quite a few people at XJ. ALPA and the 9E group choose not to honor the agreement when the tables turned later. People remember these things. Actions have consequences.

The difference is that XJ GOT AIRFRAMES from 9e merely shrinking is not the trigger. You should not comment if you do not understand the process. If you grew with airframes shifted from 9E to XJ the legal posturing would start and frankly you would not have a choice. Plain and Simple. By the way there was little in the way of high road with a 1 for 3 year seniority integration and permanent fence from the jets.