mesaba flow up and down

[DoinTime]

Just the opposite. The changes will require more efficiency. The contract decreased the requirement to make us efficient, because those rules diluted "penalty time" in the schedule. But you knew that, right?

You are the one that said your new works rules would require NWA to hire more pilots for the same amount of flying. That is a decrease in pilot efficiency, or "feather bedding" as its known in Union terms.

Check you time-line. The DC-9-10's were here long after the Avros came online.

So where are the DC-9-10's now?

Addition of the Avros at Mesaba has no impact on the deliveries of the A319's either.

How do you know how many would have been needed if NWA wouldn't have put the Avro's in service? You can't possibly know what effect past deliveries have had on current orders.

I seem to recall that recently NWA announced that they were taking a good number of small narrowbody aircraft out of service at the same time they announced that they were putting a good number of large RJ's in service. Coincidence?

 

[nwaredtail]

Occams:

So if this is a win, then why would NWA need a flowdown to Mesaba if:

1. NWA has at least 500-700 pilots retiring in the next 3 years
2. the new work rule changes will need MORE pilots

Seems to me that there may be a MASSIVE park job in the future, and if this is true, the MEC can't say anyway due to disclosure. "Watch their feet" right?

 

[123]

How do you know how many would have been needed if NWA wouldn't have put the Avro's in service? You can't possibly know what effect past deliveries have had on current orders.

So, what is your background that leads to the expertise in a/c purchasing and delivery at NWA. If I remember correctly, the -10's were around long after the Avro's were put in service.

 

[123]

Occams:

So if this is a win, then why would NWA need a flowdown to Mesaba if:

1. NWA has at least 500-700 pilots retiring in the next 3 years
2. the new work rule changes will need MORE pilots

Seems to me that there may be a MASSIVE park job in the future, and if this is true, the MEC can't say anyway due to disclosure. "Watch their feet" right?

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the entire basis of the grievance predicated on the issue of no flow through with 9E? Had NWA never purchased them, couldn't they have flown the aircraft without an issue?

 

[CRJ_Driver]

Occams:

So if this is a win, then why would NWA need a flowdown to Mesaba if:

1. NWA has at least 500-700 pilots retiring in the next 3 years
2. the new work rule changes will need MORE pilots

Seems to me that there may be a MASSIVE park job in the future, and if this is true, the MEC can't say anyway due to disclosure. "Watch their feet" right?

Why not get a flow down? It's job protection in a turbulent industry. And there is no way NW will entirely replace the DC 9 with SJ. There is a seat gap folks.

Boeing issued a PR today stating the market for RJs will be huge for the next 20 years. This RJ market is the 76+ seat aircraft. NW is holding out to see what else comes on the market besides the Ejet. Will Boeing develop a SJ????

 

[captain dad]

If you think a flow through is good, ask someone from Eagle. See what they have to say.

I hope it is a good deal for those that want it, but something tells me NWA won't be handing out free jobs. They will probably dress up some turd, wrap it in a bow, and claim it is the best gift ever.

When they start parking 9s watch it. I smell forced B scale without furloughing.

Don't you guys have to vote on this?

"FLAME ON!" - JOHNNY STORM

 

[flap operator]

How was the flowthrough bad for anyone from Eagle or Xjet that actually flowed into the mainline counterpart? How about we wait for the details on THIS flowthrough before we count it as a bad deal.


FO

 

[captain dad]

You need to talk to the guys that didn't have "Eagle Rights" and the ones that were there for 12 years and still didn't get hired at mainline AA.

Right now any flow through may seem good. However, career pilots need to look ahead a few years and see how it will effect things. Look at the history of furloughs. There is a 6 to 8 year cycle. Six years from now you better have 600 + pilots below you no matter which airline you are at.

A flow down gives essentially a B scale pay rate for flying that used to be done by the DC9. Plus gives them breaks on furlough language and may force mainline guys back into a RJ.

Granted during times of expansion a flow is great. You look at NWAs numbers. There has been a sharp reduction in domestic flights and aircraft. Execs. have even stated that there will be further cuts to the domestic fleet that will be replace with RJ and the 175.

Don't get me wrong, I hope it is a great deal. I wouldn't trust them NWA Retards with a bucket of cat sh!t, much less expect them to put a good deal together. I am just saying read it very carefully before you vote it in.

It all depends on the language. You are right. We'll see.

How was the flowthrough bad for anyone from Eagle or Xjet that actually flowed into the mainline counterpart? How about we wait for the details on THIS flowthrough before we count it as a bad deal.


FO

 

[KingAir1985]

Now for the money question.......

How long until XJ newbies are on the street again?

Oh yeah, and what kind of details are typically included in flowthrough agreements?

 

[Hulk Hogan]

Flow through may give XJ an advantage in trying to compete for new hires. Believe it or not some people out there still desire the NWA poison pill. I would imagine flow through will work for some but I'm not sure about the masses. Cancellations for crew shortages have started already in DTW!

 

[f28pilot]

Food for thought:

Since the current retirement projections at mainline make this appear more flow-up than flow-down in the near future: Did NWA want this flow-up to help attract new pilots to the low pay at the bottom of the XJ list? The new grads that I talk to have their choice of CRJ operators to choose from and are picking based on better locations, signing bonuses, and promise of quick upgrades. Promise (false hope?) of a shot at the big leagues is cheaper than actually raising pay or giving bonuses. Just a thought - discuss amongest yourselves...does this delay some of the upward wage pressure that the current pilot supply/demand situation would otherwise require?



PS - On the subject of Avro replacements, I think that was done with 50 seaters already. Mention of the 900s as Avro replacements neglects the fact that they have been gone for some time now and that 36 new aircraft won't be here for quite some time. The Avros have been replaced already. If 76 seat aircraft "replace" anything it will be those aircraft that are parked as they come on line, otherwise by definition they would be expansion aircraft.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

PS - On the subject of Avro replacements, I think that was done with 50 seaters already. Mention of the 900s as Avro replacements neglects the fact that they have been gone for some time now and that 36 new aircraft won't be here for quite some time. The Avros have been replaced already. If 76 seat aircraft "replace" anything it will be those aircraft that are parked as they come on line, otherwise by definition they would be expansion aircraft.

Uh, say again? Over.

 

[CFIfornow]

Food for thought:




PS - On the subject of Avro replacements, I think that was done with 50 seaters already. Mention of the 900s as Avro replacements neglects the fact that they have been gone for some time now and that 36 new aircraft won't be here for quite some time. The Avros have been replaced already. If 76 seat aircraft "replace" anything it will be those aircraft that are parked as they come on line, otherwise by definition they would be expansion aircraft.

50 seaters? Mesaba has only ONE 50 seat CRJ, that came on line before there was even talk of removing the Avros

 

[Occam's Razor]

You are the one that said your new works rules would require NWA to hire more pilots for the same amount of flying. That is a decrease in pilot efficiency, or "feather bedding" as its known in Union terms.

Airline staffing can be counter-intuitive to those who learn it here on FI. The increase in efficiency relates to the number of days each NWA pilot will have to work. The number of hard-hours per day should increase. (Block-or-Better makes that happen by itself)

That will result in more pilots. Before you get woozy trying to figure that out...understand that staffing is calculated and implemented based on the "whole-month" formula. Unavailabilites have been absorbed by the Zero Open Time rule. That changed too.

Here's a graphic example for you: I flew 26-minutes total hard time today, but will be paid for 5-hours. Having me fly more hard time each day will make me more efficient, and (thru the miracle of flight time limits) require NWA to hire more pilots.

So where are the DC-9-10's now?

Bud Lite cans. Note that all our B727's are gone too. Ditto the B747-100's, the B707's, and all our trusty DC-3's. Apparently, old aircraft get parked. Can you confirm?

You seem to have missed the point. That's ok. You're still eligible for the Flow Thru.

How do you know how many would have been needed if NWA wouldn't have put the Avro's in service? You can't possibly know what effect past deliveries have had on current orders.

I seem to recall that recently NWA announced that they were taking a good number of small narrowbody aircraft out of service at the same time they announced that they were putting a good number of large RJ's in service. Coincidence?

Yeah. Funny that. In '99, '00, and '01, we were parking DC-9's (the parking schedule came out in '99, and NWA has stuck to it ever since as each hull cycles-out), buying RJ's for our Airlinks...and hiring pilots.

Woozy?

 

[Occam's Razor]

So if this is a win, then why would NWA need a flowdown to Mesaba if:

1. NWA has at least 500-700 pilots retiring in the next 3 years
2. the new work rule changes will need MORE pilots

I don't know that NWA "needs" a flowdown. I do know that our MEC insisted on it...and got it. I'm not too sure management thinks it's a good thing. I also know I don't care what they think of it.

Do you?

Seems to me that there may be a MASSIVE park job in the future, and if this is true, the MEC can't say anyway due to disclosure. "Watch their feet" right?

I endorse the "watch their feet" policy!

Their feet aren't moving to park aircraft. Blockhours at the mainline are up, and forecast to increase. The surest sign of where their "feet" are headed is the good ol' APA system. Are you seeing displacements due to parking...or upgrades?

Their feet are moving to buy more widebodies. Another base for the A330 will increase the need for more pilots, and the B787 will increase pilot staffing
as well.

I will have to cop to a boo boo in the area of PERP predictions. I thought we'd see an uptick once the Claim Sale was in-the-bag. I'm still trying to figure out what's causing the hesitation. Age 65? Delays with the Targeted DC? It's something...but I can't tell exactly what.

Any ideas?