Mesaba Court Ruling Part IV

[Whataboutbob]

If XJ guys don't do the work there will be another regional that will be more than happy to take the flying and I bet there wouldn't be to many people that would quit their job in protest of flying what used to be XJ flying

 

[redflyer65]

One thing is true, we are working more against each other than with each other. There should truely be just one national rate for each aircraft. And then work rules could still be crafted to the individual airline group.

The Mesaba pilots need only to look over at the Northwest pilots to see how things are going after concessions. The Northwest pilots pretty much as a whole are pissed about their new working conditions. And they do suck. Their schedules are much more like the regionals now. 5-leg days, no more crew meals, more reduced rest overnights, etc. Yes they voted on it, but they see the tide is turning with oil coming down and Northwest getting ready to rake in huge profits. Mainline shouldn't have to put up with this type of garbage schedule, but management slipped one past the goalie and here we are.

And now we have Mesaba management trying to drive the regional lifestyle (not that it was any good to begin with) into the gutter. How can even senior pilots vote to take such a huge paycut on top of huge increase in medical premiums? Any TA that comes out is not going to look much better than the crap they have had on the table already. Good luck guys.

 

[Detroitpilot22]

Judge delays Mesaba ruling

Associated Press
Last update: October 12, 2006 – 3:02 PM

A bankruptcy judge is giving Mesaba Airlines and its unions a little more time to talk.


Judge Gregory Kishel had said he would rule today on Mesaba's request for permission to throw out its union contracts with pilots, flight attendants, and mechanics. But the union asked for a delay - and today the judge gave it to them.

Mesaba is a feeder carrier for Northwest Airlines. Both are reorganizing under bankruptcy protection.
The lawyer for Mesaba's creditors opposed the request. Attorneys say the creditors had planned to take some action on Monday if the unions didn't make a deal - but now those unspecified actions are on hold, too.

I might take a lot of heat for this statement, but this is the exact reason i don't like unions. It is more and more looking like they are going to accept this pay rate and mesaba will get what it wants, cheap costs for huge growth. My problem is is that look how long this has stretched out, how stressed out people have been for so long, and it is going to probably be the same result as if they would have just taken they pay cuts the day they went bankrupt. Mesaba's MEC has held firm with statements like we will liquidate and stuff like that, but if they cave in at the last minute after all of this time, it would be a smack in the face to everyone. The same thing is going on with pinnacle right now. Our union has been going around saying scope is a strikable item and that these pay rates managament is proposing are rediculous. They may be right but I am willing to bet that if we ever do sign a contract, it will be for the same rates management wants right now, and we will allow them to create a second certificate. So why drag it out? If we don't get a deal at pinnacle now, we will eventually go bankrupt, and then they will impose this contract or worse on us anyways. Look, I am all for better pay rates and better work rules. I just don't think we will ever get them with the leadership that alpa has. It seems like our union is always quick to talk about a strike, but always quick to take it in the rear in the end.
Here is a perfect example. Worthless and ASA are going to picket Skywest. It has been known that Alpa wants to be the union for skywest pilots. If you were a skywest pilot and saw Alpa protesting your company, why would you want them as your union?

I think there are more and more people as i talk to some pilots in the airlink family that think the same way, you wont hear it on this message board as i am about to get bashed, but I know i am not the only one that feels this way.

 

[PCL_128]

The same thing is going on with pinnacle right now. Our union has been going around saying scope is a strikable item and that these pay rates managament is proposing are rediculous. They may be right but I am willing to bet that if we ever do sign a contract, it will be for the same rates management wants right now, and we will allow them to create a second certificate. So why drag it out? If we don't get a deal at pinnacle now, we will eventually go bankrupt, and then they will impose this contract or worse on us anyways. Look, I am all for better pay rates and better work rules. I just don't think we will ever get them with the leadership that alpa has. It seems like our union is always quick to talk about a strike, but always quick to take it in the rear in the end.

You couldn't be more wrong. Please call me or one of the other union reps. We'd be happy to talk about your concerns.

 

[xjhawk]

okay here is the deal, the creditors are threatening to liquidate and i think the judge beleives them (that they will go for a chapter 7). This is a farce, why would the creditors want liquidation? Mesaba owns nothing to liquidate! yeah, they are going to get millions for....a pilot contract.....some gate agents and rampies....oh yeah, the ramp carts and trucks....i'll buy one of those red trucks for a couple hundred bucks! they are so old and beat up.....my point is there is nothing to liquidate.....and if the judge is dumb enough to beleive it......oh, i am sure he is promised something to stike us down yet again......thats how our bankruptcy laws work.....oh, does anyone know if we can appeal again to a fair court which is higher? and what premise would we be not allowed a strike? that we are too crucial to the nations flying? i doubt that......

 

[Detroitpilot22]

You couldn't be more wrong. Please call me or one of the other union reps. We'd be happy to talk about your concerns.

Just prove me wrong instead

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Just curious, I thought the pilots and flight attendants unions sat on the creditors committee??? Why would they vote for the liquidation of the company in this situation? Or do their votes carry only as much weight as they have at stake in the company, $$$$ wise???

 

[Lear70]

You couldn't be more wrong. Please call me or one of the other union reps. We'd be happy to talk about your concerns.

Sorry to continue a slight thread hijack, but as much as I disagree with PCL on union philosophy, I agree with him on your Scope concerns and will bet yet another C-note that ZERO scope is given up on the PCL side.

I've talked with each and every member of the NC (one is a good friend of mine), and Scope will NOT be a bargaining chip (they have no reason to lie to me, I don't work there anymore).

/hijack

I haven't heard anything from the MSA MEC that they are weakening on the rates at all. Can someone confirm or deny in a quasi-official capacity?

I DO know several MSA guys who just want to get on with their life one way or another. That's one of management's biggest tricks, wear 'em down until they'll sign just about anything to put it behind them. If they had some way of guaranteeing growth with the concessions, I bet it would pass.

But with no guarantee,,,? I hope not. Good luck, guys & gals!

 

[PCL_128]

I haven't heard anything from the MSA MEC that they are weakening on the rates at all. Can someone confirm or deny in a quasi-official capacity?

The last offer that MSA ALPA made to the company included a 5% reduction in payrates with graduated snap-backs as aircraft return to the property.

 

[Lear70]

That's the same thing I heard. What I meant was that I hadn't heard they were weakening any more in the company's direction...

Just wanted to clarify.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

The last offer that MSA ALPA made to the company included a 5% reduction in payrates with graduated snap-backs as aircraft return to the property.

I read this in the MSP StarTribune....

"Mesaba is ready to impose labor cuts of 17.5 percent; the three unions have offered cuts of 15 percent."

(Source: StarTribune - http://www.startribune.com/535/story/738698.html)

Is this collectively or each union offering 15%???

 

[TAWS]

okay here is the deal, the creditors are threatening to liquidate and i think the judge beleives them (that they will go for a chapter 7). This is a farce, why would the creditors want liquidation? Mesaba owns nothing to liquidate! yeah, they are going to get millions for....a pilot contract.....some gate agents and rampies....oh yeah, the ramp carts and trucks....i'll buy one of those red trucks for a couple hundred bucks! they are so old and beat up.....my point is there is nothing to liquidate.....and if the judge is dumb enough to beleive it......oh, i am sure he is promised something to stike us down yet again......thats how our bankruptcy laws work.....oh, does anyone know if we can appeal again to a fair court which is higher? and what premise would we be not allowed a strike? that we are too crucial to the nations flying? i doubt that......

Maybe they have to force the liquidation of XJ, in order to go after the big fish ........ MAIR!!
If you had spent the last year watching from the sidelines as these idiots spent millions on lawyers and got nowhere, yet you hadn't been paid for goods/services provided, you would be pissed too!! Obviously, they are sick of the game and are going to bring it to a close, unless Kishel does it first. I think they feel that they have a chance at MAIR's money and it may be the deciding factor in all of this.

 

[Terry Hunter]

Maybe they have to force the liquidation of XJ, in order to go after the big fish ........ MAIR!!
If you had spent the last year watching from the sidelines as these idiots spent millions on lawyers and got nowhere, yet you hadn't been paid for goods/services provided, you would be pissed too!! Obviously, they are sick of the game and are going to bring it to a close, unless Kishel does it first. I think they feel that they have a chance at MAIR's money and it may be the deciding factor in all of this.

Now you're on to something.

So, riddle-me-this: If XJ's so-called deadline will be missed, how is it possible a TA will solve thier problems... it would take at least two weeks to conduct roadshows/voting of this TA, all the time at current book. Suggestions?

 

[Terry Hunter]

Maybe they have to force the liquidation of XJ, in order to go after the big fish ........ MAIR!!
If you had spent the last year watching from the sidelines as these idiots spent millions on lawyers and got nowhere, yet you hadn't been paid for goods/services provided, you would be pissed too!! Obviously, they are sick of the game and are going to bring it to a close, unless Kishel does it first. I think they feel that they have a chance at MAIR's money and it may be the deciding factor in all of this.

Also in the Pioneer Press Friday 10/13/06:
Creditors protest Mesaba payments to MAIR
The unsecured creditors' committee of bankrupt Mesaba Airlines has asked the U.S. Bankruptcy Court to reject a claim by the carrier's parent company, Minneapolis-based MAIR Holdings, that more than $122 million it received from Mesaba was properly paid, according to court documents filed Wednesday. The creditors' committee told the court that roughly $11 million in management payments and $5 million in dividend payments that Eagan-based Mesaba made to MAIR in the 3½ years before its bankruptcy filing were "intended to defraud" the airline's creditors. The committee seeks to have the money returned to Mesaba's estate. In the filing, the committee also said that MAIR is not entitled to the return of $31.7 million in payments it made to Mesaba because they should be treated as an equity investment.

 

[gnx99]

^ Cool.

Did any one else read somewhere that the Northwest RFP was just dropped from 100 planes to 30 planes now? That was according to Mesaba though... the sky is falling...... blah blah blah. I'll try and find the article.

EDIT:

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2006/10/11/news/state/122126.txt

 

[PCL_128]

I read this in the MSP StarTribune....

"Mesaba is ready to impose labor cuts of 17.5 percent; the three unions have offered cuts of 15 percent."

(Source: StarTribune - http://www.startribune.com/535/story/738698.html)

Is this collectively or each union offering 15%???

15% is the proposed cut from each union, but it includes payrates, work rules, benefits, changes to vacancy language, etc... The actual cut to the rates is only 5%.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Geez, it really kind of makes you wonder if it's even worth it... I mean, great, you're only taking a 5% pay cut, but with all of the work rule changes, bennies, etc, you might as well find a different place to work...

 

[TurboAWD]

Just prove me wrong instead

Why aren't you interested in talking to one of your reps about this?

I am quite sure that the MEC will not put a TA in front of the pilot group that doesn't have complete scope protection. I am equally sure that they will not put out a TA that has payrates identical to the imfamous "last, best, final offer".

Remeber, ALPA is only as strong as it's members resolve. And if you vote YES to a contract you don't think is acceptable, you have no one to blame but yourself.

As for XJ, if they didn't have a union, mgmt would have imposed what they wanted at least a year ago, probably much earlier.

Turbo.

 

[W&BWiz]

He's not interested in talking to one of his reps because that would be too much work. But I am sure when the sh*t starts to hit the fan over there, and it will, he'll be the biggest trash talker of ALPA.

 

[Smarta$$]

Why aren't you interested in talking to one of your reps about this?

I am quite sure that the MEC will not put a TA in front of the pilot group that doesn't have complete scope protection. I am equally sure that they will not put out a TA that has payrates identical to the imfamous "last, best, final offer".

Remeber, ALPA is only as strong as it's members resolve. And if you vote YES to a contract you don't think is acceptable, you have no one to blame but yourself.

As for XJ, if they didn't have a union, mgmt would have imposed what they wanted at least a year ago, probably much earlier.

Turbo.

Talking to the reps can only do so much. Either they dont know what will be proposed or negotiated. Or if they do know they cant say anyway because of confidentiality. It is frustrating because we pilots never REALLY know what is going on. I feel out of the loop about what is actually accomplished.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Talking to the reps can only do so much. Either they dont know what will be proposed or negotiated. Or if they do know they cant say anyway because of confidentiality. It is frustrating because we pilots never REALLY know what is going on. I feel out of the loop about what is actually accomplished.

It isn't hard to figure out, just think of every possible you can be screwed and apply. You see they have to find a way to get you to work for less and not quit. They have been pretty effective so far at other companies. ALPA is a business as well, they function in their best interests, and sometimes that's not your own.

 

[TAWS]

I see ALPA using their position on the UCC to help direct strategy. You think it's all coincidence that timelines work like they do.
I hope you know that even if you liquidate and walk away, that the regional which does the work will have better pay and work rules than you would have. The sad thing is that the new regional wouldn't have big red skimming as much off the top.
When it's all said and done, I hope you stand strong, as ALL the others are watching - even if it means liquidation! You'll move on and find work elsewhere, usually for the better. Mngt uses starting afresh somewhere else as a scare tactic - one day you'll look back and laugh, while still being able to hold your head up high. NWA isn't out of BK yet, so they are going to play this out to the end, just to set a precedent! They might even go back to their guys and take the pensions.
If only one major had a group of Pilots that was willing to fight, NWA wouldn't have smelled blood in the water and it wouldn't have gone this way for you guys.
I hope SkyWest guys are watching, because as inadequate as ALPA is, at least they are putting up a fight and mngt can't just impose what they want, just because it's monday, and their coffee sucked!

Don't disappoint us by passing a steamy TA at the last minute boys!!

From a furloughed XJ'r.

 

[kmox29]

Wonder if today will finally be THE day. Best of luck XJ'ers. Fcuk Spanjers.

 

[easydoesit]

kmox

hey we need an updated picture of your son! Have you had time to create any more trouble makers?

 

[CWUalum]

I like the hat on kmox's kid. I actually took my pin off my hat and now use it as target practice. I hope all the current XJer's stand strong and not take it in the shorts. STFD

Ex- XJer

 

[kmox29]

kmox

hey we need an updated picture of your son! Have you had time to create any more trouble makers?

Nope, no more troublemakers...he woke up with Pink Eye yesterday...sweet. Kinda reminded me what I used to look like after my fourth highspeed in a row.

 

[Lear70]

PINK EYE??

What kind of playground are you taking him to? The one close to that strip club by the airport?

GOOD LUCK TODAY GUYS!!

 

[blackbox]

Ruling is due out today at 1400CST, right? THats if they dont come to an agreement?

 

[Turtlesfly]

ALPA website shows news release that the judge will give something at 2pm. Like a big kick in the balls.

 

[redflyer65]

Maybe another delay. Because its cloudy. Good luck guys and don't let them get by with this sham bankruptcy.