Mesaba/Colgan guys, some 9E news

[Smarta$$]

Sorry if you took my comment personally. It was only intended to further your post. You stated the 9E union has been unwilling to stand and fight, and I stated XJs union is strong and willing to see the process through. My statements were not meant to imply your abilities, willingness, or union involvement.

Of the grandpa comment, I took it as senior and not old. I'm proud of my seniority at XJ. I'm ready to move on, but feel I'm in a good situation however this merger works out.

Actually I said, and meant that our PILOTS were not willing to fight. I generally support our current union leadership with a few exceptions. They are trying really hard. But they are fighting an incompetent and ruthless enemy. Not a good combination when we live in a country that gives all of the legal power to such a ridiculously stupid bunch of mismanagers.

Our union isn't the primary problem, it is our pilots that cut any bargaining power out from under them by picking up the pieces of this company everyday, instead of letting them fail on their own short comings. At least until they bargain in good faith.

Lets move on.

 

[Smarta$$]

9E mgmt. Would be hard pressed to staff 61 aircraft with NO pilots taking an "Employment Opportunity."

You might want to research how the LOA came about. PM me and I will put you in touch with several of them that would tell you they were not screwed in the deal. Also, your arguments show your willingness to screw those same pilots again, plus several others that had nothing to do with that LOA. Nice.

I am telling you this as a friend, although you are correct that it would be difficult to staff those planes, NEVER underestimate the greed and stupidity of the 9E decision makers. They just might try it.

 

[CptMurf]

Actually I said, and meant that our PILOTS were not willing to fight. I generally support our current union leadership with a few exceptions. They are trying really hard. But they are fighting an incompetent and ruthless enemy. Not a good combination when we live in a country that gives all of the legal power to such a ridiculously stupid bunch of mismanagers.

Our union isn't the primary problem, it is our pilots that cut any bargaining power out from under them by picking up the pieces of this company everyday, instead of letting them fail on their own short comings. At least until they bargain in good faith.

Lets move on.

One last thing on this....

Your pilots... Are your union. It's not made up of the individuals that step up and volunteer, but rather every pilot on the property. You must all be moving in a coordinated direction to have a strong union. If not you are doomed to fail.

Think of an army. It cannot win if it is made up of just officers. It needs the grunts on the ground doing the legwork, down to the cook, to win the war. If they are fighting more amongst themselves, than they are the enemy, how could they ever win?

We all have a personal responsibility in this. We need to be working together, in an allied front. But first EVERYONE must accept that we will not screw the other group in integration and stop looking for personal gain in this.

Editorial note: This is not saying that you are not involved, nor trying to screw anyone. It is meant as a statement of my frustration on the buddy f..ing I read into some of these posts in this thread. Non of which came from you.

 

[RJLoser]

This thread is what's wrong with pilots. Other pilots are not the issue.

 

[Smarta$$]

One last thing on this....

Your pilots... Are your union. It's not made up of the individuals that step up and volunteer, but rather every pilot on the property. You must all be moving in a coordinated direction to have a strong union. If not you are doomed to fail.

Think of an army. It cannot win if it is made up of just officers. It needs the grunts on the ground doing the legwork, down to the cook, to win the war. If they are fighting more amongst themselves, than they are the enemy, how could they ever win?

We all have a personal responsibility in this. We need to be working together, in an allied front. But first EVERYONE must accept that we will not screw the other group in integration and stop looking for personal gain in this.

Editorial note: This is not saying that you are not involved, nor trying to screw anyone. It is meant as a statement of my frustration on the buddy f..ing I read into some of these posts in this thread. Non of which came from you.

Yes, I agree. I was specifically telling you which component of our army was deficient.

But I also have seen nothing from xj pilots bit excessive effort to be on time and excessive taxi speeds relative to the situation we find ourselves in. You will discover that it is not helping our fight in about 9 days. Unfortunately, our pilots do the same. I guess no one has a problem with 6 years of negotiating.

 

[Andrew_VT]

But I also have seen nothing from xj pilots bit excessive effort... Unfortunately, our pilots do the same. I guess no one has a problem with 6 years of negotiating.

This isn't meant to belittle, but I honestly believe the Mesaba pilot group wouldn't have gone the 6 years that you guys have. I fly with some pretty militant guys and gals. ASA showed you what you needed to do in september 2007 when they "got" their contract. How is ASA different than PCL?


Remember this?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=102765&highlight=ASA+campaign

 

[Smarta$$]

This isn't meant to belittle, but I honestly believe the Mesaba pilot group wouldn't have gone the 6 years that you guys have. I fly with some pretty militant guys and gals. ASA showed you what you needed to do in september 2007 when they "got" their contract. How is ASA different than PCL?


Remember this?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=102765&highlight=ASA+campaign

PROVE IT. In 8 days, you will have your chance. Put your money where your mouth is.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

+1....hahahaha I agree. Lots of "we are so tough, hear us roar" talk going on. Well, the chance to show how tough you are is about present itself very soon...

 

[Mel Sharples]

PROVE IT. In 8 days, you will have your chance. Put your money where your mouth is.

No offense, but if we don't have a contract in 8 days that isn't reason alone to "put our money where our mouth is."

Now if they start moving planes around, it's a different story. Mesaba pilots FULLY support Pinnacle and Colgan pilots in getting a contract (finally). But let's not jump the gun, either. If this isn't done in 8 days, it is not reason alone to burn the place down. Let this play out.

One valuable lesson we learned in 2004 was that leverage doesn't always mean going nuclear. Pinnacle will be losing money too if they don't have the single list. That may be motivation for them to negotiate (yeah, I know... "You don't know this management team, blah-blah-blah...")

Let's all be calm, be READY for war (not anxious), and remember we are all on the same team. Let's learn from past mistakes but not let past events cloud our judgement.

Again, we ARE on the same team now. We should all act like it.

 

[Andrew_VT]

PROVE IT. In 8 days, you will have your chance. Put your money where your mouth is.

6 years of negotiating would justify an ASA style "havoc" campaign. Missing a 45 day optimistic goal? ...not so much.

I did say that I fly with some pretty militant folks, but I'm talking more about a Michigan autoworkers union mindset, and less of a Michigan Hutaree militia one.

 

[CptMurf]

6 years of negotiating would justify an ASA style "havoc" campaign. Missing a 45 day optimistic goal? ...not so much.

I did say that I fly with some pretty militant folks, but I'm talking more about a Michigan autoworkers union mindset, and less of a Michigan Hutaree militia one.

How about something more amusing, than an illegal job action. Something like removing all personal items from the crewroom day, or call scheduling to say "Hi" day. If organized correctly across all three groups, the message would be clear to mgmt. of our resolve. And might be fun to boot.

 

[Smarta$$]

6 years of negotiating would justify an ASA style "havoc" campaign. Missing a 45 day optimistic goal? ...not so much.

I did say that I fly with some pretty militant folks, but I'm talking more about a Michigan autoworkers union mindset, and less of a Michigan Hutaree militia one.

OK, this is 6 years PLUS another 45 days of wasted time for us. Now if we are all truly together fighting as ONE, then that should mean something to you also.

All this talk about "give it time", just a "little time for this to play out" is us falling into their trap. This is how we get to 6 years. A little at a time. "we are almost there guys, hang in there" or "management really wants/needs it this time".

Talk to your MEC or NC. The last few weeks have accomplished NOTHING substantial at all. It is not TIME that is needed, it is MOTIVATION. And sitting on your hands waiting is NOT what creates MOTIVATION.

But hey, you are MESABA, so you must know something I don't know about 9E management.

If we have no deal in 8 days, it will not be because we ran out of time, it will be because management refused to put the money on the table. Waiting these guys out won't change that, hasn't in 6 YEARS.

Why can't people learn from others mistakes.

 

[CptMurf]

Nothings going to happen in 8 days, whether we have a done deal or not. Deadlines mean nothing in this industry. It will be done when it's done.

 

[SEVEN]

It will be done when it's done.

From the great Apollo Creed: ".....it ain't over till its over!"



"APOLLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"







"A

 

[Smarta$$]

Nothings going to happen in 8 days, whether we have a done deal or not. Deadlines mean nothing in this industry. It will be done when it's done.

Just what I thought. You and your pilots are no tougher negotiators than ours. Your a joke with your "get out of the way" talk. 9E management will play you guys for fools, already are...

 

[Smarta$$]

From the great Apollo Creed: ".....it ain't over till its over!"



"APOLLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"







"A

Um, yeah Apollo was a fighter, you guys not so much.

 

[gojo]

Just what I thought. You and your pilots are no tougher negotiators than ours. Your a joke with your "get out of the way" talk. 9E management will play you guys for fools, already are...

Jesus... How old are some of you guys? This bickering back and forth is quite childesh

 

[gojo]

And before anyone points it out, yes I know I spelled childish wrong

 

[Mel Sharples]

Um, yeah Apollo was a fighter, you guys not so much.

Hey Smarta$$ -

Did you even read my previous post?

There is more than one way to skin this cat. The "deadline" to get this contract done was put in place by Pinnacle management because as of now they are losing LOTS of money by operating three seperate companies. It is not efficient at all and they know it. Did anyone really think the contract would get done quickly and smoothly?

The problem is that if we aren't willing to burn the house down the day the day this mythical deadline (put in place by management) passes you claim Mesaba pilots don't support you. Couldn't be farther from the truth. But we won't cut off our nose to spite our face. The leverage is already there -- let Pinnacle keep burning up money by operating three companies.

To blame the Mesaba pilots for not immediately help end your six years of misery is unfair. Do we support you getting a contract? Hell yes. But we aren't going to pee all over our new house just to get it done. That may be tough but it doesn't solve the problem.

We have learned through our previous contract, bankruptcy, losing a fleet, and taking on two new ones how to do this effectively. Reacting in a crazy way and beating our chests doesn't do much. Hitting them where it hurts, on the bottom line, does. On-time performance looks good but they are still losing money. Why make the passengers suffer at this point? We've been threatened before every way possible and each time we came out stronger in the end.

Keep in mind you guys had SIX YEARS to show some resolve. We just came to this party so to blame us is a joke. We can and will help when the time is right. That doesn't mean we don't care -- we just aren't going to take a dumb job action now that will cost all of us. We have leverage so let's use it.

You don't always have to make a big show out of killing the beast. Bleeding it to death works, too. I know you guys are frustrated after six years but don't make us your enemy. We didn't cause this but we can help fix it. You act like because in 8 days we aren't willing to have a write-up campaign or make every flight late that we don't support Pinnacle pilots. What if we said, "Hey, Pinnacle pilots: support Mesaba pilots losing our airplanes to you by grounding every flight tomorrow." Do you think that would happen? Pretty dumb, huh?

For the third time, we are on the same team. That means we need to help you, but you need to understand that doesn't mean we have to go nuclear either. Fighting on here really solves a lot.

Let's all be smart about this.

 

[Smarta$$]

Thank you for your concern.

 

[Smarta$$]

Hey Smarta$$ -

Did you even read my previous post?

There is more than one way to skin this cat. The "deadline" to get this contract done was put in place by Pinnacle management because as of now they are losing LOTS of money by operating three seperate companies. It is not efficient at all and they know it. Did anyone really think the contract would get done quickly and smoothly?

The problem is that if we aren't willing to burn the house down the day the day this mythical deadline (put in place by management) passes you claim Mesaba pilots don't support you. Couldn't be farther from the truth. But we won't cut off our nose to spite our face. The leverage is already there -- let Pinnacle keep burning up money by operating three companies.

To blame the Mesaba pilots for not immediately help end your six years of misery is unfair. Do we support you getting a contract? Hell yes. But we aren't going to pee all over our new house just to get it done. That may be tough but it doesn't solve the problem.

We have learned through our previous contract, bankruptcy, losing a fleet, and taking on two new ones how to do this effectively. Reacting in a crazy way and beating our chests doesn't do much. Hitting them where it hurts, on the bottom line, does. On-time performance looks good but they are still losing money. Why make the passengers suffer at this point? We've been threatened before every way possible and each time we came out stronger in the end.

Keep in mind you guys had SIX YEARS to show some resolve. We just came to this party so to blame us is a joke. We can and will help when the time is right. That doesn't mean we don't care -- we just aren't going to take a dumb job action now that will cost all of us. We have leverage so let's use it.

You don't always have to make a big show out of killing the beast. Bleeding it to death works, too. I know you guys are frustrated after six years but don't make us your enemy. We didn't cause this but we can help fix it. You act like because in 8 days we aren't willing to have a write-up campaign or make every flight late that we don't support Pinnacle pilots. What if we said, "Hey, Pinnacle pilots: support Mesaba pilots losing our airplanes to you by grounding every flight tomorrow." Do you think that would happen? Pretty dumb, huh?

For the third time, we are on the same team. That means we need to help you, but you need to understand that doesn't mean we have to go nuclear either. Fighting on here really solves a lot.

Let's all be smart about this.

1. You may not have caused the last 6 years, but an attitude of giving them as much time as they need or "it will get done when it gets done" is exactly what will make this take years more.

2. It doesn't matter if they are or are not losing money with 3 separate companies. It would, if they were intelligent, rational business managers. They are not. If you had been paying attention, you would have watched this management team pass up RFP after RFP of available business because of labor unrest. You would have witnessed them paying MILLIONS of dollars in fines to NWA for cancelled flights due to staffing problems(mostly due to labor unrest). They WILL intentionally waste more money than you make in a lifetime just to make us take a cheap contract or keep us under our 99 agreement. WAKE UP. Talk to your NC members. They have gone for several weeks now with NO progress on anything that costs MONEY.

Get if through your head right now, or be prepared to tell me I was right months or years from now. It is NOT TIME that is needed, it is MOTIVATION. Losing money with 3 companies in not enough motivation with executives that run a company primarily by southern plantation mentality and EGO. They are the CLASSIC anti-labor executives and that ALONE takes precedence over anything LOGICAL.

This is 6 years and 45 days for us. I know how we got to this point, and your mentality is a big part of it. Now we either ARE one group embracing ALL of our collective concerns, or we are not. You expect me and my group to worry about your concerns regarding SLI, but you are all to willing to take a "sit back" approach to our terrible contract and the terrible working situation it has lead to.

3. So, I say, we are either ONE group or we are not. But I won't fight for your best interest (which I have been within my own group) and watch you guys piss on mine.

Your ideas of how to handle this contract negotiations are INEFFECTIVE with this management team. The sooner you figure that out, the better off we will all be.

 

[CptMurf]

Just what I thought. You and your pilots are no tougher negotiators than ours. Your a joke with your "get out of the way" talk. 9E management will play you guys for fools, already are...

I'm going to assume you started drinking early today. I'll respond more tomorrow, today is about my family.

 

[CptMurf]

Just what I thought. You and your pilots are no tougher negotiators than ours. Your a joke with your "get out of the way" talk. 9E management will play you guys for fools, already are...

Now back to the discussion...

What exactly did you think was going to happen here? No one that I know has thought that the deal would be done in 45 days. Even the unions were leary of that deadline. It could have worked, but only if the company agreed to every one of the unions proposals.

So seeing that it most likely won't be done in the next 7 days, what would you have the XJ guys do? Walk? Illegal job action such as havoc? .... You know that we cannot. I know that this is frustrating for you, even more since you have been negotiating for 6 years. We are new to the fight here, and we must play by the rules just as you have been doing. Believe this though, if 9E were released, we would walk off with you at this point. We are with you and together on this at this point.

My point with the "it will be done when it's done" statement was meant to imply the company is not going to impose, or change anything from the operating norm until the contract and SLI are laid out. I believe that in 7 days there will be a new deadline established, and maybe some finger pointing from mgmt. If the deals not done by this new deadline, a new one will be established, and so on and so on. I don't even think mgmt. even thought that it would be done, since our POI told me on Friday that XJ has not even started the paperwork to certify the Q400s on our certificate.

Here's the deal... if they transfer the jets to 9E without it (contract and sli) and try to "offer employment" on the bottom of the list, they will not have enough XJ guys transferring and will cost them money on the 9E side due to training, and the XJ side in further furloughs and unemployment compensation. Being seperate, they cannot force anyone between the two. Huge money cost, and BAD labor problems that they would have to answer to shareholders for. It would be better for them to delay, and delay, and delay. Same thing could be said if we don't come together and find a fair way to integrate our lists, albeit this would be only our fault and could actually cost us (combined MEC) in some sort of fines or lawsuit.

I also posted a good way to tell Holdings of our resolve, without an illegal job action. A shot across the bow if you like.... Pick one day and have every pilot remove all personal items from the crewrooms. Let mgmt. know its coming even. It would be a good indication of how quickly we can mobilize and how unified we are. Think of it as a strike vote. A more agressive way, would be a "denial of service" attack. Pick a department or person and we all call them individually, all day, just to say "Hi!" Just think of the ramifications of shutting down scheduling for the entire day. This is not a job action per se, in that the airline would continue to run (and ontime), but would DEFINATELY get our point across.

Don't think for a moment that XJ pilots or on a more personal level (me), are not ready for a fight, or ready to walk, or ready to STFD. We are. But I also know that this has to be a thought out, rational, coordinated response by all of the 9E, 9L, XJ pilots. We also unfortunately, have to follow the rules of the RLA.

 

[xjhawk]

well said. But I think everyone should talk to their union rep and become proactive and let them know what you want and ask how it is going. As a mesaba pilot I am hoping for better work rules, better pay would be nice but I am not expecting much of an improvement on that end. I agree with the union wanting something other than the republic model when it comes to our contract. I for one do not want to be stuck in one career path or force those behind me with ard choices of base and company. If you guys cannot be civil now just wait until you are in the same flight deck and see what it is like. Lets not make this any more miserable than it already is

 

[CptMurf]

Look.... I have a new signature too! .... Took it out of context as well!

 

[rene]

The best for who? Pilots, or management?

Best for pilots - of course

 

[Smarta$$]

Yeah, you pretty much said nothing. Playing by the rules and waiting for management to get this done is exactly what we have been doing for 6 years.

If you talk directly with your negotiators, you would know that for 3 weeks, nothing of any substance has been done. Management just keeps saying NO to anything that costs money. So, what will waiting longer do? You can wait 2 weeks, or 5 years. If the answer is NO, then nothing will get done. Keep waiting..... ASA has shown us all how to get this done.

Do I expect Mesaba pilots to have a job action in 7 days? No. I expect ALL of us to finally reach the boiling point in a very short time. It is cowardly, lazy, harmful to our moral and harmful to most of our paychecks and job security to let this drag out forever.

I would like to here from ASA pilots about whether they regret what they had to do to get a contract? How about the NWA pilots 4 years ago? Do they regret what they had to do?

I certainly regret my 6 year old contract. But hey, maybe we are not all in this together after all. Or is it just that we are in this together when YOU want a fair SLI?

 

[CptMurf]

I would like to here from ASA pilots about whether they regret what they had to do to get a contract? How about the NWA pilots 4 years ago? Do they regret what they had to do?

I certainly regret my 6 year old contract. But hey, maybe we are not all in this together after all. Or is it just that we are in this together when YOU want a fair SLI?

They is a right way, and a right time for job actions. Lest you end up like this... http://articles.cnn.com/1999-04-16/...ociation-apa-reno-pilots-sickout?_s=PM:TRAVEL

Prior to this merger, I would say you were there. In fact, I may have been standing next to you during your informational picketing (I made it to 2 events). Unfortunately, the merger resets the clock a bit. Maybe not in your eyes, but in the eyes of the NMB it does.

No, we are all in this together now. It's just that since we had different starting points we have different expectations of where we end up with OUR CBA and SLI. XJ guys don't expect much in gains on this contract, most of us are just hoping for a short duration, but we DEFINATELY want to see a fair integration. 9E pilots want to see large gains in the contract, and it seems (at least from the vocal group) an integration method that unfairly screws the senior XJ guys. 9L, well, I don't know. They don't seem to post much on here, but are set for LARGE gains in the contract, and with a relative seniority system LARGE gains in integration.

You seem like an enigma to me... You state that you are for a fair XJ integration when talking to you peers, yet talk trash on here. You feel XJ guys are unjust if they don't call for job actions in 7 days. You claim your pilots are spineless, but union is strong, even though they are one in the same. And you claim, just because we say give due process, we are only out for ourselves. All in All, maybe you just like to flame.

 

[Smarta$$]

That was union sponsored activity. Not the same thing.

And just as I suspected, since you don't expect to gain much, you won't hang your neck out, even if a large part of this supposed "one group together" needs the relief from this horrendous contract.

As to the enigma, you won't find me suggesting anything BUT a fair SLI prior to you making it clear that you want to sit around and wait for management to finally feel generous. Also, I just made it clear that I expect all of us to fight, including Mesaba pilots (that is, if we are in fact fighting as one), our pilots ARE spinless (obviously as are yours, that is if the general sentiment is wait and see how this plays out ((that is exactly what 9E pilots have been doing for YEARS)), our union leadership (current) has been doing nearly everything within the letter of the law.

As to the "out for yourselves", due process means sit on your hands and wait for trenary to morph into a reasonable human. Not sure when you are going to realize that isn't going to happen without some pressure on his bonus and sufficient pressure from the shareholders due to poor performance. We have tried it your way, we have tried it for YEARS. Hasn't worked. And yes, you don't appear to have the same fire in your belly because you expect to gain much less from this. Yet you expect others who will gain less from an SLI that is fair to you, to fight for YOU.

I don't actually want to fight anymore. I am just very disappointed in the lack of fight and urgency from the supposed "tough negotiating Mesaba pilots". I am NOT impressed and now believe you guys would have been as bad off or worse had you been dealing with Memphis math all these years.

Good luck, we are going to need it with mentalities like these (no different, at all, from 9E pilots over the last 6 years).

 

[CptMurf]

As you have already seem to have the situation, and me figured out.... I will refrain from responding to your posts. I bid you good luck, and look forward to flying with you on the line.

Peace