Mesaba/Colgan guys, some 9E news

[Smarta$$]

Ours have, and will. Join us, or get out of the way.

I haven't said anything negative about a Mesaba pilot (except Seven). But listen hear grandpa, I have seen nothing from Mesaba pilots besides a NASCAR taxi. Show me you guys will fight this management in a meaningful way, and then I will respect you. While you are on your high horse, I have flown with 3 former Mesaba pilots in the last month, and I am NOT impressed.

Now, gear up for a fight. We are going to need it, and 9E pilots have never shown the spine. Lets see what you got.

 

[DoinTime]

Why would there be a "firestorm" against Mesaba pilots? Shouldn't you have a "firestorm" against the company that hasn't given you a new contract in 5+ years? And where was the offer when Mesaba was in bankruptcy losing half their pilot group and Pinnacle was hiring because they were still taking 200's? This situation is different because NWA pulled airplanes from Express and gave them to Mesaba. Is Delta pulling airplanes from Mesaba and giving them to Pinnacle here? I would venture to say that when Mesaba was in bankruptcy was much closer to the situation the LOA is talking about than this situation now.

edit: And why aren't the Mesaba pilots grandstading and saying they are going to give Colgan pilots 2 for 1? Because it isn't the right thing to do?

Pinnacle was not taking delivery of aircraft during the NWA/Mesaba bankruptcies. Along with the capacity cuts that mainline and Mesaba took as part of the reorganization, Pinnacle had 15 CRJ-200s grounded. The bankruptcy was nothing more than unfortunate circumstances in an unstable profession where everyone shared pain. It in no way entitled you to jobs at Pinnacle.

 

[Flyer1015]

We will merge nicely, or this company will fail divided. Quit looking for your personal gain in this. You will be swinging my gear even if there were a 2-1.

No merger unless a JCBA and a SLI come. JCBA looks very remote. I'd be more worried about what happens to XJ once the Saabs from the Delta system are parked. Going down to just 36 CRJ900s and 17 CRJ200s would be horrible. I wouldn't make any slinging gear comments at this point.

 

[bri5150]

Pinnacle was not taking delivery of aircraft during the NWA/Mesaba bankruptcies. Along with the capacity cuts that mainline and Mesaba took as part of the reorganization, Pinnacle had 15 CRJ-200s grounded. The bankruptcy was nothing more than unfortunate circumstances in an unstable profession where everyone shared pain. It in no way entitled you to jobs at Pinnacle.

So, Express pilots were ENTITLED jobs at Mesaba? Or was it just a nice thing to do?

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Not going to happen. This is not even close to "the transaction such as the one that gives rise to this letter." Not to mention the reciprocation section states a negotiation would have to take place.

We will merge nicely, or this company will fail divided. Quit looking for your personal gain in this. You will be swinging my gear even if there were a 2-1.

I hope these last couple of posts are not indicative of my future work environment!

I can't speak for you, but I'm not a lawyer. I think the there is a transaction taking place, there will be a net loss of pilots at Mesaba, and there will be a net gain of pilots at Pinnacle. If this is the case then the parties shall negotiate another LOA that would transfer pilots and seniority to Pinnacle. What kind of seniority credit is agreed to is the $64,000 question. Something is going to happen one way or another. This is the way I see it happening IF we don't get a JCBA. Obviously you don't agree.

Ah, the old "you'll be swinging my gear" barb. I don't mind operating the landing gear, in fact I do it all of the time when I'm the PM. With a 1-2 or DOH, I'll still be in the left seat.

 

[bri5150]

, I have flown with 3 former Mesaba pilots in the last month, and I am NOT impressed.

Now, gear up for a fight. We are going to need it, and 9E pilots have never shown the spine. Lets see what you got.

How about a little respect for the guys that have just been put and are going through hell? I've been furloughed, and it ain't fun. I am not a violent man, but I remember many a pillow taking a beating. Just because they aren't a super pilot like yourself, doesn't mean you can talk smack. Again, a little respect for what they are going through please.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Why would there be a "firestorm" against Mesaba pilots? Shouldn't you have a "firestorm" against the company that hasn't given you a new contract in 5+ years? And where was the offer when Mesaba was in bankruptcy losing half their pilot group and Pinnacle was hiring because they were still taking 200's? This situation is different because NWA pulled airplanes from Express and gave them to Mesaba. Is Delta pulling airplanes from Mesaba and giving them to Pinnacle here? I would venture to say that when Mesaba was in bankruptcy was much closer to the situation the LOA is talking about than this situation now.

edit: And why aren't the Mesaba pilots grandstading and saying they are going to give Colgan pilots 2 for 1? Because it isn't the right thing to do?

No firestorm against Mesaba pilots, it would be against 9E ALPA for sacrificing 9E pilots seniority more than is provided for in the LOA.

There is no agreement between XJ and 9L for transfer of seniority and there doesn't need to be because there are merging.

 

[CptMurf]

Pinnacle was not taking delivery of aircraft during the NWA/Mesaba bankruptcies. Along with the capacity cuts that mainline and Mesaba took as part of the reorganization, Pinnacle had 15 CRJ-200s grounded. The bankruptcy was nothing more than unfortunate circumstances in an unstable profession where everyone shared pain. It in no way entitled you to jobs at Pinnacle.

Dointime is right there was no reason to reciprocate due to the circumstances of the BK. Now if you look back to about 2003, well then that's a different story.

 

[CptMurf]

Where's Higney85 to settle down his fellow pilots? This directly relates to our discussion about a month ago.

 

[CptMurf]

I haven't said anything negative about a Mesaba pilot (except Seven). But listen hear grandpa, I have seen nothing from Mesaba pilots besides a NASCAR taxi. Show me you guys will fight this management in a meaningful way, and then I will respect you. While you are on your high horse, I have flown with 3 former Mesaba pilots in the last month, and I am NOT impressed.

Now, gear up for a fight. We are going to need it, and 9E pilots have never shown the spine. Lets see what you got.

You got me Smarta$$, I am old. Old enough to have my job/seat threatened about 5 times here at XJ. Old enough to have been downgraded more than once. Old enough to have concessions forced upon me, only to have new hire pilots tell me I sold out in accepting the contract. Now I see junior pilots drooling over my aircraft and how they will screw me in integration. I'm still fighting though, except we fight mgmt. over here, not other pilots. Our MEC leaders and membership are strong, hardened in battle you might say.

I would rather have all these drooling pilots standing beside me. I would rather put up a united front, ALPA against mgmt. Instead I find myself on FI stating how a 13 year old LOA should not, will not, a cannot be accepted by this ENTIRE pilot group.

I might be old, but there's still a lot of fight left in me. Let's just focus that energy together against mgmt. To make this the best airline/contract/pilot group in our part of the industry.

 

[DoinTime]

So, Express pilots were ENTITLED jobs at Mesaba? Or was it just a nice thing to do?

If this joint deal falls through and this transaction turns into a fragmentation instead of a merger, Mesaba pilots are entitled to jobs at Pinnacle in every way that Express I pilots were entitled to jobs at Mesaba in '97. If this were a fragmentation, the circumstances are very similar to the circumstances in '97. When you consider the marketing conditions that the Mesaba MEC tried to attach this LOA to in '02-'03 the commonality between now and then is especially obvious.

LOA 21 was a piece of crap and it was a slap in the face of how a national union should operate within themselves. The Express I MEC at the time should have been way more aggressive in protecting those jobs but had Mesaba's MEC made a commitment to embrace the owners of the jobs they were taking in '97 this wouldn't be an issue right now.

 

[bri5150]

You got me Smarta$$, I am old. Old enough to have my job/seat threatened about 5 times here at XJ. Old enough to have been downgraded more than once. Old enough to have concessions forced upon me, only to have new hire pilots tell me I sold out in accepting the contract. Now I see junior pilots drooling over my aircraft and how they will screw me in integration. I'm still fighting though, except we fight mgmt. over here, not other pilots. Our MEC leaders and membership are strong, hardened in battle you might say.

I would rather have all these drooling pilots standing beside me. I would rather put up a united front, ALPA against mgmt. Instead I find myself on FI stating how a 13 year old LOA should not, will not, a cannot be accepted by this ENTIRE pilot group.

I might be old, but there's still a lot of fight left in me. Let's just focus that energy together against mgmt. To make this the best airline/contract/pilot group in our part of the industry.

Right on CptMurf. I am not sure why the Pinnacle pilots feel so strongly about screwing Mesaba pilots. I am sure someone will reply that it isn't our choice they are going to use the LOA. Have you contacted your rep about how you don't want it used? Have you spent any energy trying to get the integrated seniority list so everyone is integrated fairly? I know you can say that the ones that are talking smack are in the minority, but I have only seen those that talk smack. I can honestly say I have not had a positve experience talking with ANY Pinnacle pilot EVER, other than the one that I knew from flight school. It's always about how you are going to get screwed...LOA this, LOA that. STFU and get something useful done by saying you want a fair integration. Not a single time have I ever heard a Mesaba pilot talk about how we should get better treatment for anything in this process. Fair integration. That's all I have ever heard coming out of Mesaba pilots.

Oh, this is obviously a general statement and not directed at CptMurf. I completely agree with what he says.

 

[Smarta$$]

How about a little respect for the guys that have just been put and are going through hell? I've been furloughed, and it ain't fun. I am not a violent man, but I remember many a pillow taking a beating. Just because they aren't a super pilot like yourself, doesn't mean you can talk smack. Again, a little respect for what they are going through please.

Actually, in 2 out of 3 cases, it was definitely their attitude that was a factor. I did also notice serious proficiency shortfalls as well, but I would cut them slack if their attitude was good.

As far as having respect, 2 out of 3 were young, arrogant punks, exhibiting an attitude I will NOT respect.

I didn't specify that in my post, so I will let your remarks roll off.

 

[bri5150]

If this joint deal falls through and this transaction turns into a fragmentation instead of a merger, Mesaba pilots are entitled to jobs at Pinnacle in every way that Express I pilots were entitled to jobs at Mesaba in '97. If this were a fragmentation, the circumstances are very similar to the circumstances in '97. When you consider the marketing conditions that the Mesaba MEC tried to attach this LOA to in '02-'03 the commonality between now and then is especially obvious.

LOA 21 was a piece of crap and it was a slap in the face of how a national union should operate within themselves. The Express I MEC at the time should have been way more aggressive in protecting those jobs but had Mesaba's MEC made a commitment to embrace the owners of the jobs they were taking in '97 this wouldn't be an issue right now.

If it's such a piece of crap, why try and use it now? My point is that Express pilots were not "entitled" jobs at Mesaba. From what I know, that was a courtesy more than anything, not something that needed to be done by any stretch of the imagination. Here, there is scope involved, so it's more of an "entitlement" issue as per our contract. God I hate the word "entitle". This is real simple. Pinnacle pilots need to all get together and say that using the LOA will not happen. We won't let our fellow company pilots get screwed and we expect them to not screw us if something should come up in the future. SIMPLE!! Until that is done, you will not get my respect as a pilot group (not that anyone should care I guess).

 

[Smarta$$]

You got me Smarta$$, I am old. Old enough to have my job/seat threatened about 5 times here at XJ. Old enough to have been downgraded more than once. Old enough to have concessions forced upon me, only to have new hire pilots tell me I sold out in accepting the contract. Now I see junior pilots drooling over my aircraft and how they will screw me in integration. I'm still fighting though, except we fight mgmt. over here, not other pilots. Our MEC leaders and membership are strong, hardened in battle you might say.

I would rather have all these drooling pilots standing beside me. I would rather put up a united front, ALPA against mgmt. Instead I find myself on FI stating how a 13 year old LOA should not, will not, a cannot be accepted by this ENTIRE pilot group.

I might be old, but there's still a lot of fight left in me. Let's just focus that energy together against mgmt. To make this the best airline/contract/pilot group in our part of the industry.

First, I apologize for calling you grandpa. It was in response to a statement you had made. Forget it.

Now, go back and read my posts in this thread that led to you addressing me and show me where I;

1. Mentioned the LOA.

2. Belittled any Mesaba pilot.

3. Threatened or spoke down to any Mesaba pilot (Seven excluded).

My posts were intended to get ALL of the pilots from all 3 airlines geared up for a fight against management because the 15th will come and go, and we will NOT have a contract.

You had no reason to address me the way you did. Especially since you and I share the same views of where our energy should focus.

As for the 9E pilots bringing up the LOA, ignore them. There are some in every group that can't see past their own selfishness. We have more of those here than you can possibly imagine. It is the main reason we are 5 years without a contract here. But it is not being discussed by our MEC. So... ignore the selfish uninformed.