Mesaba/Colgan guys, some 9E news

[Smarta$$]

Sorry if you took my comment personally. It was only intended to further your post. You stated the 9E union has been unwilling to stand and fight, and I stated XJs union is strong and willing to see the process through. My statements were not meant to imply your abilities, willingness, or union involvement.

Of the grandpa comment, I took it as senior and not old. I'm proud of my seniority at XJ. I'm ready to move on, but feel I'm in a good situation however this merger works out.

Actually I said, and meant that our PILOTS were not willing to fight. I generally support our current union leadership with a few exceptions. They are trying really hard. But they are fighting an incompetent and ruthless enemy. Not a good combination when we live in a country that gives all of the legal power to such a ridiculously stupid bunch of mismanagers.

Our union isn't the primary problem, it is our pilots that cut any bargaining power out from under them by picking up the pieces of this company everyday, instead of letting them fail on their own short comings. At least until they bargain in good faith.

Lets move on.

 

[Smarta$$]

9E mgmt. Would be hard pressed to staff 61 aircraft with NO pilots taking an "Employment Opportunity."

You might want to research how the LOA came about. PM me and I will put you in touch with several of them that would tell you they were not screwed in the deal. Also, your arguments show your willingness to screw those same pilots again, plus several others that had nothing to do with that LOA. Nice.

I am telling you this as a friend, although you are correct that it would be difficult to staff those planes, NEVER underestimate the greed and stupidity of the 9E decision makers. They just might try it.

 

[CptMurf]

Actually I said, and meant that our PILOTS were not willing to fight. I generally support our current union leadership with a few exceptions. They are trying really hard. But they are fighting an incompetent and ruthless enemy. Not a good combination when we live in a country that gives all of the legal power to such a ridiculously stupid bunch of mismanagers.

Our union isn't the primary problem, it is our pilots that cut any bargaining power out from under them by picking up the pieces of this company everyday, instead of letting them fail on their own short comings. At least until they bargain in good faith.

Lets move on.

One last thing on this....

Your pilots... Are your union. It's not made up of the individuals that step up and volunteer, but rather every pilot on the property. You must all be moving in a coordinated direction to have a strong union. If not you are doomed to fail.

Think of an army. It cannot win if it is made up of just officers. It needs the grunts on the ground doing the legwork, down to the cook, to win the war. If they are fighting more amongst themselves, than they are the enemy, how could they ever win?

We all have a personal responsibility in this. We need to be working together, in an allied front. But first EVERYONE must accept that we will not screw the other group in integration and stop looking for personal gain in this.

Editorial note: This is not saying that you are not involved, nor trying to screw anyone. It is meant as a statement of my frustration on the buddy f..ing I read into some of these posts in this thread. Non of which came from you.

 

[RJLoser]

This thread is what's wrong with pilots. Other pilots are not the issue.

 

[Smarta$$]

One last thing on this....

Your pilots... Are your union. It's not made up of the individuals that step up and volunteer, but rather every pilot on the property. You must all be moving in a coordinated direction to have a strong union. If not you are doomed to fail.

Think of an army. It cannot win if it is made up of just officers. It needs the grunts on the ground doing the legwork, down to the cook, to win the war. If they are fighting more amongst themselves, than they are the enemy, how could they ever win?

We all have a personal responsibility in this. We need to be working together, in an allied front. But first EVERYONE must accept that we will not screw the other group in integration and stop looking for personal gain in this.

Editorial note: This is not saying that you are not involved, nor trying to screw anyone. It is meant as a statement of my frustration on the buddy f..ing I read into some of these posts in this thread. Non of which came from you.

Yes, I agree. I was specifically telling you which component of our army was deficient.

But I also have seen nothing from xj pilots bit excessive effort to be on time and excessive taxi speeds relative to the situation we find ourselves in. You will discover that it is not helping our fight in about 9 days. Unfortunately, our pilots do the same. I guess no one has a problem with 6 years of negotiating.

 

[Andrew_VT]

But I also have seen nothing from xj pilots bit excessive effort... Unfortunately, our pilots do the same. I guess no one has a problem with 6 years of negotiating.

This isn't meant to belittle, but I honestly believe the Mesaba pilot group wouldn't have gone the 6 years that you guys have. I fly with some pretty militant guys and gals. ASA showed you what you needed to do in september 2007 when they "got" their contract. How is ASA different than PCL?


Remember this?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=102765&highlight=ASA+campaign

 

[Smarta$$]

This isn't meant to belittle, but I honestly believe the Mesaba pilot group wouldn't have gone the 6 years that you guys have. I fly with some pretty militant guys and gals. ASA showed you what you needed to do in september 2007 when they "got" their contract. How is ASA different than PCL?


Remember this?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=102765&highlight=ASA+campaign

PROVE IT. In 8 days, you will have your chance. Put your money where your mouth is.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

+1....hahahaha I agree. Lots of "we are so tough, hear us roar" talk going on. Well, the chance to show how tough you are is about present itself very soon...

 

[Mel Sharples]

PROVE IT. In 8 days, you will have your chance. Put your money where your mouth is.

No offense, but if we don't have a contract in 8 days that isn't reason alone to "put our money where our mouth is."

Now if they start moving planes around, it's a different story. Mesaba pilots FULLY support Pinnacle and Colgan pilots in getting a contract (finally). But let's not jump the gun, either. If this isn't done in 8 days, it is not reason alone to burn the place down. Let this play out.

One valuable lesson we learned in 2004 was that leverage doesn't always mean going nuclear. Pinnacle will be losing money too if they don't have the single list. That may be motivation for them to negotiate (yeah, I know... "You don't know this management team, blah-blah-blah...")

Let's all be calm, be READY for war (not anxious), and remember we are all on the same team. Let's learn from past mistakes but not let past events cloud our judgement.

Again, we ARE on the same team now. We should all act like it.

 

[Andrew_VT]

PROVE IT. In 8 days, you will have your chance. Put your money where your mouth is.

6 years of negotiating would justify an ASA style "havoc" campaign. Missing a 45 day optimistic goal? ...not so much.

I did say that I fly with some pretty militant folks, but I'm talking more about a Michigan autoworkers union mindset, and less of a Michigan Hutaree militia one.

 

[CptMurf]

6 years of negotiating would justify an ASA style "havoc" campaign. Missing a 45 day optimistic goal? ...not so much.

I did say that I fly with some pretty militant folks, but I'm talking more about a Michigan autoworkers union mindset, and less of a Michigan Hutaree militia one.

How about something more amusing, than an illegal job action. Something like removing all personal items from the crewroom day, or call scheduling to say "Hi" day. If organized correctly across all three groups, the message would be clear to mgmt. of our resolve. And might be fun to boot.

 

[Smarta$$]

6 years of negotiating would justify an ASA style "havoc" campaign. Missing a 45 day optimistic goal? ...not so much.

I did say that I fly with some pretty militant folks, but I'm talking more about a Michigan autoworkers union mindset, and less of a Michigan Hutaree militia one.

OK, this is 6 years PLUS another 45 days of wasted time for us. Now if we are all truly together fighting as ONE, then that should mean something to you also.

All this talk about "give it time", just a "little time for this to play out" is us falling into their trap. This is how we get to 6 years. A little at a time. "we are almost there guys, hang in there" or "management really wants/needs it this time".

Talk to your MEC or NC. The last few weeks have accomplished NOTHING substantial at all. It is not TIME that is needed, it is MOTIVATION. And sitting on your hands waiting is NOT what creates MOTIVATION.

But hey, you are MESABA, so you must know something I don't know about 9E management.

If we have no deal in 8 days, it will not be because we ran out of time, it will be because management refused to put the money on the table. Waiting these guys out won't change that, hasn't in 6 YEARS.

Why can't people learn from others mistakes.

 

[CptMurf]

Nothings going to happen in 8 days, whether we have a done deal or not. Deadlines mean nothing in this industry. It will be done when it's done.

 

[SEVEN]

It will be done when it's done.

From the great Apollo Creed: ".....it ain't over till its over!"



"APOLLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"







"A

 

[Smarta$$]

Nothings going to happen in 8 days, whether we have a done deal or not. Deadlines mean nothing in this industry. It will be done when it's done.

Just what I thought. You and your pilots are no tougher negotiators than ours. Your a joke with your "get out of the way" talk. 9E management will play you guys for fools, already are...

 

[Smarta$$]

From the great Apollo Creed: ".....it ain't over till its over!"



"APOLLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"







"A

Um, yeah Apollo was a fighter, you guys not so much.

 

[gojo]

Just what I thought. You and your pilots are no tougher negotiators than ours. Your a joke with your "get out of the way" talk. 9E management will play you guys for fools, already are...

Jesus... How old are some of you guys? This bickering back and forth is quite childesh

 

[gojo]

And before anyone points it out, yes I know I spelled childish wrong

 

[Mel Sharples]

Um, yeah Apollo was a fighter, you guys not so much.

Hey Smarta$$ -

Did you even read my previous post?

There is more than one way to skin this cat. The "deadline" to get this contract done was put in place by Pinnacle management because as of now they are losing LOTS of money by operating three seperate companies. It is not efficient at all and they know it. Did anyone really think the contract would get done quickly and smoothly?

The problem is that if we aren't willing to burn the house down the day the day this mythical deadline (put in place by management) passes you claim Mesaba pilots don't support you. Couldn't be farther from the truth. But we won't cut off our nose to spite our face. The leverage is already there -- let Pinnacle keep burning up money by operating three companies.

To blame the Mesaba pilots for not immediately help end your six years of misery is unfair. Do we support you getting a contract? Hell yes. But we aren't going to pee all over our new house just to get it done. That may be tough but it doesn't solve the problem.

We have learned through our previous contract, bankruptcy, losing a fleet, and taking on two new ones how to do this effectively. Reacting in a crazy way and beating our chests doesn't do much. Hitting them where it hurts, on the bottom line, does. On-time performance looks good but they are still losing money. Why make the passengers suffer at this point? We've been threatened before every way possible and each time we came out stronger in the end.

Keep in mind you guys had SIX YEARS to show some resolve. We just came to this party so to blame us is a joke. We can and will help when the time is right. That doesn't mean we don't care -- we just aren't going to take a dumb job action now that will cost all of us. We have leverage so let's use it.

You don't always have to make a big show out of killing the beast. Bleeding it to death works, too. I know you guys are frustrated after six years but don't make us your enemy. We didn't cause this but we can help fix it. You act like because in 8 days we aren't willing to have a write-up campaign or make every flight late that we don't support Pinnacle pilots. What if we said, "Hey, Pinnacle pilots: support Mesaba pilots losing our airplanes to you by grounding every flight tomorrow." Do you think that would happen? Pretty dumb, huh?

For the third time, we are on the same team. That means we need to help you, but you need to understand that doesn't mean we have to go nuclear either. Fighting on here really solves a lot.

Let's all be smart about this.

 

[Smarta$$]

Thank you for your concern.