FlyingDawg
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MESA TA Question
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big dog1
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Were going to drag them down Freedom pilots make more than our pilots with the new Ta, Also the1900 guys can not go to jet fo it will be a new hire probally from MAPD with 300 hour. the 1900can only uprade to jet Capt. Our company is a piece of $hit and our MEC are a bunch of sell outs. Also Alpa approved this just for the J4J!! We got nothing in the deal other than the scope!!!!!
SpacemanSpiff
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drag down
FlyingDawg,
The only information currently available on the TA is what DoinTime posted - a summary. Actual language may be ready, but has not been posted, or it may still be in the works.
Big Dog1,
You make it sound like the scope is NOTHING. Let's look at Piedmont, Allegheny, and PSA. They have no scope...they have no single seniority list and they are being played against each other as well as against the various contract carriers, not just us. They like to demonize us in particular just to make themselves feel better. Sure they had great payscales, work rules, and benefits, but did they waste their bargaining power on pay and benefits at the expense of scope and single seniority?
On the bright side for Mesa - we are going to grow like gangbusters as long as AWA and USAirways stay in business. Every FO currently working for Mesa should have the opportunity be a jet Captain in the near future. I am hearing that we will grow three times larger than present size. Mesa will be a major airline as far as revenues are concerned. Hopefully when it is time to renegotiate the economy and the airline industry will be on a more sound footing, and we can negotiate a better contract - knowing that we already have scope in the bag.
Could and should we have held out for more...maybe. I am interested in hearing the road shows and FACTS not just the rumors.
Jeepman,
What can I say...you hate Mesa and you probably blame Mesa for all the problems in your miserable little life. WE are not your problem though. YOUR lack of understanding of REALITY is part of the problem. Why didn't your MEC negotiate job protections into your wonderful contract? Were they short sighted?
You might want to start learning about the fundamentals of economics as well. Supply, demand and all that good stuff. In a weak economy you can't just artificially prop up wages and benefits just because you think you are worth it. Well, maybe you can for a short amount of time, but it won't last for very long. If the market can't bear the costs then the market WILL find another way - a cheaper way or more efficient way - whether you and I like it or not.
I know what you are thinking - that am I "whoring" myself out or that I would work for free. Again, I would say that we have to find the right balance of what the market will bear. What is the right balance? I don't know. I would like to think it is more than what we are going to get in the TA, but then again the market is so soft. In case you haven't heard industry experts give United about an 80% chance of going under...chapter 7 that is...
gotta go..dinner is ready
FlyingDawg,
The only information currently available on the TA is what DoinTime posted - a summary. Actual language may be ready, but has not been posted, or it may still be in the works.
Big Dog1,
You make it sound like the scope is NOTHING. Let's look at Piedmont, Allegheny, and PSA. They have no scope...they have no single seniority list and they are being played against each other as well as against the various contract carriers, not just us. They like to demonize us in particular just to make themselves feel better. Sure they had great payscales, work rules, and benefits, but did they waste their bargaining power on pay and benefits at the expense of scope and single seniority?
On the bright side for Mesa - we are going to grow like gangbusters as long as AWA and USAirways stay in business. Every FO currently working for Mesa should have the opportunity be a jet Captain in the near future. I am hearing that we will grow three times larger than present size. Mesa will be a major airline as far as revenues are concerned. Hopefully when it is time to renegotiate the economy and the airline industry will be on a more sound footing, and we can negotiate a better contract - knowing that we already have scope in the bag.
Could and should we have held out for more...maybe. I am interested in hearing the road shows and FACTS not just the rumors.
Jeepman,
What can I say...you hate Mesa and you probably blame Mesa for all the problems in your miserable little life. WE are not your problem though. YOUR lack of understanding of REALITY is part of the problem. Why didn't your MEC negotiate job protections into your wonderful contract? Were they short sighted?
You might want to start learning about the fundamentals of economics as well. Supply, demand and all that good stuff. In a weak economy you can't just artificially prop up wages and benefits just because you think you are worth it. Well, maybe you can for a short amount of time, but it won't last for very long. If the market can't bear the costs then the market WILL find another way - a cheaper way or more efficient way - whether you and I like it or not.
I know what you are thinking - that am I "whoring" myself out or that I would work for free. Again, I would say that we have to find the right balance of what the market will bear. What is the right balance? I don't know. I would like to think it is more than what we are going to get in the TA, but then again the market is so soft. In case you haven't heard industry experts give United about an 80% chance of going under...chapter 7 that is...
gotta go..dinner is ready
BoredToDeath
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2001
- Posts
- 171
Spaceman,
Please do research before stating what the WOs have and don't have. We infact do have Scope. It's a page and a half long so I won't bother putting it here. The one thing lacking in our scope is that we can't keep Group from sub-contracting Express brand flying out to companies like yours.
You mentioned the single-sen. list thing, so I'll bring you up to date. The three WOs sen. lists were already put together years ago in hopes that Group would merge us. It has yet to happen legally. The language in our contracts that was forced upon us with respect to jets for jobs will merge the WOs and staple us to the bottom of MDAs sen. list and flow to Mainline. Inother words if things actually turn around for US Airways Group the Mainline will have to take all of MDA and the WOs before they can hire from the outside. Now I'm not to exstatic about most of the wording, but it is what it is. To top it off single carrier status has been denied by the courts sometime in the past couple of years. US Airways Group has Mainline and the WOs set up in just a way that it walks a very thin line, but is still able to maintain everything separate. In the past week or so our MEC held a meeting, which was later deemed null and void, that disscused a single sen. list again. All WO MECs, according one person on the MEC, agreed that there were more pressing issues to deal with in order to emerge from bankruptcy with
Group.
Now is Group playing the WOs against each other? Yes, but not so much anymore and never as much as we've had to compete against contract carriers. To give an example, our FAs while trying to negotiate a concessionary contract to emerge from bankruptcy with the rest of Group, were told directly from Dave that if it was'nt in line with what Mesa has it would'nt be acceptable. Are you starting to see how you guys are hurting us.
You said,"Sure they had great payscales, work rules, and benefits, but did they waste their bargaining power on pay and benefits at the expense of scope and single seniority?"
I hope that your contract sets some sort of higher bar. Becuase if it comes anywhere below the WOs "Concessionary Contracts" and you approve it, you will trully be whores. Rememmber that we were'nt allowed to vote on ours cause they knew it would'nt have passed. You on the other hand get to vote and this is where we will see if Mesa will gladly undercut the WOs. And don't feed us garbage about what the market will and won't bear. The current market can still pay a livable wage, its just up to you to make sure you get it and not hurt others in the process.
If I were you, I would'nt get to exited about all this growth you talk about. It will come at a very high price to alot of good people. Just wait and see how things turn out. Most of the Mainline pilots I talk to are ready to walk out if the pension problem is not solved to their satisfaction.
Please do research before stating what the WOs have and don't have. We infact do have Scope. It's a page and a half long so I won't bother putting it here. The one thing lacking in our scope is that we can't keep Group from sub-contracting Express brand flying out to companies like yours.
You mentioned the single-sen. list thing, so I'll bring you up to date. The three WOs sen. lists were already put together years ago in hopes that Group would merge us. It has yet to happen legally. The language in our contracts that was forced upon us with respect to jets for jobs will merge the WOs and staple us to the bottom of MDAs sen. list and flow to Mainline. Inother words if things actually turn around for US Airways Group the Mainline will have to take all of MDA and the WOs before they can hire from the outside. Now I'm not to exstatic about most of the wording, but it is what it is. To top it off single carrier status has been denied by the courts sometime in the past couple of years. US Airways Group has Mainline and the WOs set up in just a way that it walks a very thin line, but is still able to maintain everything separate. In the past week or so our MEC held a meeting, which was later deemed null and void, that disscused a single sen. list again. All WO MECs, according one person on the MEC, agreed that there were more pressing issues to deal with in order to emerge from bankruptcy with
Group.
Now is Group playing the WOs against each other? Yes, but not so much anymore and never as much as we've had to compete against contract carriers. To give an example, our FAs while trying to negotiate a concessionary contract to emerge from bankruptcy with the rest of Group, were told directly from Dave that if it was'nt in line with what Mesa has it would'nt be acceptable. Are you starting to see how you guys are hurting us.
You said,"Sure they had great payscales, work rules, and benefits, but did they waste their bargaining power on pay and benefits at the expense of scope and single seniority?"
I hope that your contract sets some sort of higher bar. Becuase if it comes anywhere below the WOs "Concessionary Contracts" and you approve it, you will trully be whores. Rememmber that we were'nt allowed to vote on ours cause they knew it would'nt have passed. You on the other hand get to vote and this is where we will see if Mesa will gladly undercut the WOs. And don't feed us garbage about what the market will and won't bear. The current market can still pay a livable wage, its just up to you to make sure you get it and not hurt others in the process.
If I were you, I would'nt get to exited about all this growth you talk about. It will come at a very high price to alot of good people. Just wait and see how things turn out. Most of the Mainline pilots I talk to are ready to walk out if the pension problem is not solved to their satisfaction.
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Spaceman,
First of all I don't hate Mesa, Freedom yes, Mesa no. Second, I do not have a "miserable little life" it is quite good, thank you. I don't consider myself misinformed, nor am I asking or stating that I or anyone else in this industry should get a pay raise. However I DONT think that any of us deserve a pay cut because of the problems the majors are having. We have done nothing but help the majors out. You mention job protection hmm.......let's see
SkyWest NEVER furloughed a single pilot in 30 Years.
Mesa How many furloughed how many times????
Look I don't wanna get into a bashing contest. All I am saying is that you guys have the opportunity to raise your quality of life after you have had to deal with all the stuff J.O. has thrown at you. Who is the Mesa pilot with the Avatar of the Mesa logo & the K.Y. jelly?Yes, I am a little concerened that United will give you some of our flying. Will I be pissed at you? No, it was United who I would be pissed at. After giving them quality service with great on time and completion numbers, while making money for them they are now hosing us. Yes the economy is bad, but if United is making money from us should we have to suffer, no. If you get the contract will you win? Only if you have some respect and negotiate a FAIR CONTRACT. If not then fine, just remember YOU called yourself a whore, not me.
Good Luck
First of all I don't hate Mesa, Freedom yes, Mesa no. Second, I do not have a "miserable little life" it is quite good, thank you. I don't consider myself misinformed, nor am I asking or stating that I or anyone else in this industry should get a pay raise. However I DONT think that any of us deserve a pay cut because of the problems the majors are having. We have done nothing but help the majors out. You mention job protection hmm.......let's see
SkyWest NEVER furloughed a single pilot in 30 Years.
Mesa How many furloughed how many times????
Look I don't wanna get into a bashing contest. All I am saying is that you guys have the opportunity to raise your quality of life after you have had to deal with all the stuff J.O. has thrown at you. Who is the Mesa pilot with the Avatar of the Mesa logo & the K.Y. jelly?Yes, I am a little concerened that United will give you some of our flying. Will I be pissed at you? No, it was United who I would be pissed at. After giving them quality service with great on time and completion numbers, while making money for them they are now hosing us. Yes the economy is bad, but if United is making money from us should we have to suffer, no. If you get the contract will you win? Only if you have some respect and negotiate a FAIR CONTRACT. If not then fine, just remember YOU called yourself a whore, not me.
Good Luck
Most of the posts on this board seem to indicate that the actual pay rates are the most important part of the contract. Most people forget about quality of life, work rules, insurance, and retirement. Even if the economy is soft and may not be able to yield the wages that regional pilots as a whole have earned, other parts of the contract could be brought up. 8 and 9 days off...that is so pitiful. Supply and demand be what it is, a shorter agreement can also be negotiated. 2 or 3 years instead of 4 or 5. I am not sure what the duration of the Mesa TA is but I hope for their sake, for all of our sake, it is a short one (if it is passed of course).
Mayday.
Mayday.
Jet_Dreamer
Living The Dream??
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- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 291
Bottom Line
I know everyone else would love the Mesa pilots to fall on their swords in the name of industry leading contracts and vote this TA down, it's not them that will end up unemployed after all. Bottom Line is that if we don't sign this contract, Johnny O has publicly stated that he will shut the doors and all the flying will be shunted over to Freedom. Mesa, Airmidwest and CCAir folks will be on the streets unless they are willing to fly for non-union Freedom. Anyone that thinks he won't do that in a heartbeat to get the union out of his shop is dreaming.
Not only would that obviously suck for all our pilots, it also wouldn't do the rest of the industry very good to set the precedent that Johnny O and his Freedom airlines tactic wins. Let that happen once and every carrier, not just Mesa will be scrambling to start their own union busting carrier so that they can whipsaw their pilots because Freedom will have demonstrated that it works, and works like a charm.
Right now the cost of killing Freedom, not only for us but for the rest of the industry, is Mesa pilots choking down a contract that is only marginally better than the old one. The only card we have to play is to get this contract signed and get the scope in effect. Johnny O lost his temper in the negotiations and let that one slip, we need to take advantage of his mistake. All the other cards are in the hands of management. And don't think that Johnny O wouldn't throw away everything if he thinks he can get rid of the union at Mesa, including the new jets for J4J. He'll find other carriers to fly for and go to sleep happy at night knowing he stuck it to the union and all his employees.
I know everyone else would love the Mesa pilots to fall on their swords in the name of industry leading contracts and vote this TA down, it's not them that will end up unemployed after all. Bottom Line is that if we don't sign this contract, Johnny O has publicly stated that he will shut the doors and all the flying will be shunted over to Freedom. Mesa, Airmidwest and CCAir folks will be on the streets unless they are willing to fly for non-union Freedom. Anyone that thinks he won't do that in a heartbeat to get the union out of his shop is dreaming.
Not only would that obviously suck for all our pilots, it also wouldn't do the rest of the industry very good to set the precedent that Johnny O and his Freedom airlines tactic wins. Let that happen once and every carrier, not just Mesa will be scrambling to start their own union busting carrier so that they can whipsaw their pilots because Freedom will have demonstrated that it works, and works like a charm.
Right now the cost of killing Freedom, not only for us but for the rest of the industry, is Mesa pilots choking down a contract that is only marginally better than the old one. The only card we have to play is to get this contract signed and get the scope in effect. Johnny O lost his temper in the negotiations and let that one slip, we need to take advantage of his mistake. All the other cards are in the hands of management. And don't think that Johnny O wouldn't throw away everything if he thinks he can get rid of the union at Mesa, including the new jets for J4J. He'll find other carriers to fly for and go to sleep happy at night knowing he stuck it to the union and all his employees.
BoredToDeath
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- Dec 12, 2001
- Posts
- 171
WileE,
The real bottom line is that contract carrier companys such as yours have no business flying in U colors. And it's only becuase of the old timers at Mainline that did'nt have the forsight or B@lls to keep all the flying in house.
But now that you are here you and the rest make it even more difficult for all pilots to make a good living and easier for managment to have their way with us. Don't belive me, just look at the post from Mr. Jet_Dreamer above. With everything thats going on all he cares about is if Mesa will hire soon, regardless of the pay. His is the perfect example of what has brought this industry to its knees. Trust me I am not without fault, I too went to work for a company knowing I was taking a $10,000 a year pay cut, but it was still more beneficial to work at the lowest paid WO, at the time, than it was to work for a contract carrier. This was all bound to happen sooner or later, 9-11 only speed up the proccess. Management has all the cards because too many people like him are willing to fly for dirt and some others for just above dirt, or God forbid PFT. I'll bet it won't be too long before that monster comes around again.
I understand what your saying WileE, and the position your in is a tricky one. But from my point of view it looks like JO has already won either way. I highly doubt he let anything slip that he did'nt want you to hear. Either he pays you dirt or he pays Freedom just above dirt with no union. So the onlything for you to do now is take it and run and tell everyone else its OK to fly for dirt. Hey you got yours right?
The real bottom line is that contract carrier companys such as yours have no business flying in U colors. And it's only becuase of the old timers at Mainline that did'nt have the forsight or B@lls to keep all the flying in house.
But now that you are here you and the rest make it even more difficult for all pilots to make a good living and easier for managment to have their way with us. Don't belive me, just look at the post from Mr. Jet_Dreamer above. With everything thats going on all he cares about is if Mesa will hire soon, regardless of the pay. His is the perfect example of what has brought this industry to its knees. Trust me I am not without fault, I too went to work for a company knowing I was taking a $10,000 a year pay cut, but it was still more beneficial to work at the lowest paid WO, at the time, than it was to work for a contract carrier. This was all bound to happen sooner or later, 9-11 only speed up the proccess. Management has all the cards because too many people like him are willing to fly for dirt and some others for just above dirt, or God forbid PFT. I'll bet it won't be too long before that monster comes around again.
I understand what your saying WileE, and the position your in is a tricky one. But from my point of view it looks like JO has already won either way. I highly doubt he let anything slip that he did'nt want you to hear. Either he pays you dirt or he pays Freedom just above dirt with no union. So the onlything for you to do now is take it and run and tell everyone else its OK to fly for dirt. Hey you got yours right?
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PositiveRate
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Intruder One
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- Apr 6, 2002
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- 137
I posted this awhile back but I will do it again to see if there are any thoughts on this.A neighbor of mine let me read the T/A (furloughed CCAir Pilot) and it is not good, but at the end it has a clause to bring in the CCAir group.It states"CCAir pilots will be credited longevity for pay and benefit purposes from the date CCAir was aquired by Mesa Air Group,Inc".This comes to about 3yrs. according to my neighbor.Can you imagine what JO could do with this.He is also looking at some of the WO's to purchace,wouldn't that be a great windfall for him if he could start say a Piedment over at year 1 pay?I bet other CEO's would like to get a hold of this also,if JO can get it why not them?
And to WileE.....I don't know how big Freedumb is a this time,but I wouldn't think its big enough to carry all of Mesa flying at this point.This would seem the perfect time to talk of a strike before he has time to build up the non union carrier.
And to WileE.....I don't know how big Freedumb is a this time,but I wouldn't think its big enough to carry all of Mesa flying at this point.This would seem the perfect time to talk of a strike before he has time to build up the non union carrier.
To all the Mesa guys, I don't know what to say other than I hope somehow all this works out for you and you can shove all the Free-dumb guys into the 1900 for a few years.
To J.O. May you some day wind up in jail using the same K.Y. that you force your pilots to use when you get gangbanged by Kenneth Lay & all the other crooked CEO's out there. Your no better than Hussein or Bin Laden.
To J.O. May you some day wind up in jail using the same K.Y. that you force your pilots to use when you get gangbanged by Kenneth Lay & all the other crooked CEO's out there. Your no better than Hussein or Bin Laden.
SpacemanSpiff
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2002
- Posts
- 107
oh brother...
BoredToDeath,
"The real bottom line is that contract carrier companys such as yours have no business flying in U colors."
We have all the right and the business in the world to do flying for U or anyone else. This is capitalism, right? Or has the AFL-CIO convinced you that we live in a workers paradise? Is is fair to the U and WO employees or even a smart business practice? Probably not. I don't think fine companies like Southwest, JetBlue, or Skywest would ever do this to their employees. You said it yourself though, the Mainline pilots were shortsighted. You say you have scope protection and yet your flying is being bid out to contract carriers. Do you even hear what you are saying? Are you able to connect the dots yet? Get with reality...Go and be shortsighted no more.
If you could go back in time and give up some or most of the precious pieces of your contract for REAL scope and a single seniority list, would you do it? Knowing that in 4.5 years you start negotiating again from a stronger position because your CEO doesn't have the ability to make the end run again? Also hoping that the economy and airline industry have turned around?
Intruder One,
You don't just declare a strike and just talking about a strike doesn't do a hell of a lot of good. There is a process and at the rate we are going...or at some point Mesa Air Group will not need Mesa Airlines. Mesa Airlines would go the way of WestAir and CCAir and Freedumb would grow.
Jeepman,
My apologies...I mistook you for one of the U WO guys that blame us for all of lifes ills.
I wish we worked for a management team like the one at Skywest, but we don't. Our CEO cares NOTHING for the emloyees. No matter what his lips say, his actions speak far louder than his words. It is ALL about him and his massive ego.
What would your pilot group do if they were in our alter-ego shoes. While you ponder that, keep in mind that you have already seen two of your sister companies disappear with little or no trace. Would you choke down a sorry contract that offered you job security and gowth in hopes that you can ride out a weak economy and put yourself in stronger bargaining position for the future? Skywest would never do that to their employees? That is wonderful. I hope you are correct.
And Jeepman, I NEVER called myself a whore. I know fairly well what I am, and I sleep just fine at night, thank you.
Mayday911,
The TA is for 4.5 years.
BoredToDeath,
"The real bottom line is that contract carrier companys such as yours have no business flying in U colors."
We have all the right and the business in the world to do flying for U or anyone else. This is capitalism, right? Or has the AFL-CIO convinced you that we live in a workers paradise? Is is fair to the U and WO employees or even a smart business practice? Probably not. I don't think fine companies like Southwest, JetBlue, or Skywest would ever do this to their employees. You said it yourself though, the Mainline pilots were shortsighted. You say you have scope protection and yet your flying is being bid out to contract carriers. Do you even hear what you are saying? Are you able to connect the dots yet? Get with reality...Go and be shortsighted no more.
If you could go back in time and give up some or most of the precious pieces of your contract for REAL scope and a single seniority list, would you do it? Knowing that in 4.5 years you start negotiating again from a stronger position because your CEO doesn't have the ability to make the end run again? Also hoping that the economy and airline industry have turned around?
Intruder One,
You don't just declare a strike and just talking about a strike doesn't do a hell of a lot of good. There is a process and at the rate we are going...or at some point Mesa Air Group will not need Mesa Airlines. Mesa Airlines would go the way of WestAir and CCAir and Freedumb would grow.
Jeepman,
My apologies...I mistook you for one of the U WO guys that blame us for all of lifes ills.
I wish we worked for a management team like the one at Skywest, but we don't. Our CEO cares NOTHING for the emloyees. No matter what his lips say, his actions speak far louder than his words. It is ALL about him and his massive ego.
What would your pilot group do if they were in our alter-ego shoes. While you ponder that, keep in mind that you have already seen two of your sister companies disappear with little or no trace. Would you choke down a sorry contract that offered you job security and gowth in hopes that you can ride out a weak economy and put yourself in stronger bargaining position for the future? Skywest would never do that to their employees? That is wonderful. I hope you are correct.
And Jeepman, I NEVER called myself a whore. I know fairly well what I am, and I sleep just fine at night, thank you.
Mayday911,
The TA is for 4.5 years.
SpacemanSpiff
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2002
- Posts
- 107
Spaceman,
That's good the TA is only 4.5 years, thats about when the industry will (hopefully) turn around. Yes, we do have great management, The top 3 in the company took a 20% cut in pay to help us be more competetive. The word is that they want us to take a pay cut in the form of flying a 70 seat RJ for 50 seat pay, or a 90 seat RJ for who knows what pay. I don't like the idea of that, but it makes it easier to do knowing the CEO took a 20% cut before we did. Alot of guys are calling it scab flying, but I would rather do that than take a cut in pay.
In a way I wish we would buy you guys out so that I wouldn't have to hear how J.O. shafts you guys every time & you could see what it's like to work for great management & not deal with so much B.S. Lord knows there's enough B.S. in this world to fuel the worlds energy needs from here to eternity.
Take care.
That's good the TA is only 4.5 years, thats about when the industry will (hopefully) turn around. Yes, we do have great management, The top 3 in the company took a 20% cut in pay to help us be more competetive. The word is that they want us to take a pay cut in the form of flying a 70 seat RJ for 50 seat pay, or a 90 seat RJ for who knows what pay. I don't like the idea of that, but it makes it easier to do knowing the CEO took a 20% cut before we did. Alot of guys are calling it scab flying, but I would rather do that than take a cut in pay.
In a way I wish we would buy you guys out so that I wouldn't have to hear how J.O. shafts you guys every time & you could see what it's like to work for great management & not deal with so much B.S. Lord knows there's enough B.S. in this world to fuel the worlds energy needs from here to eternity.
Take care.
big dog1
Well-known member
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- Oct 28, 2002
- Posts
- 179
Freedom has 7or 8 planes ,if we strike now eveyone on at Freedom will be scabs, they will have to fly struck work.With that being said there will be no J4J which means no growth for freedom this whole mess needs to be stopped here!!! 4.5 years it will be something else no QOL or No pay raises.
Limited growth MESA'S HAS FIRM ORDERS ONLY THE FREEDOM PLANES- 40 A/C. THE REST IS ALL SPECULATIONS.
IF YOU EXPECT BASED ON SPECULATIONS GOOD LUCK.
WE HAVE ENOUGH CAPTAINS AS OF NOW FOR 72 PLANES,TO INCLUDE FREEDOM, THE REST ARE J4JS..............50% OURS.
VOTE NO NO NO !!!!!!!!!
Limited growth MESA'S HAS FIRM ORDERS ONLY THE FREEDOM PLANES- 40 A/C. THE REST IS ALL SPECULATIONS.
IF YOU EXPECT BASED ON SPECULATIONS GOOD LUCK.
WE HAVE ENOUGH CAPTAINS AS OF NOW FOR 72 PLANES,TO INCLUDE FREEDOM, THE REST ARE J4JS..............50% OURS.
VOTE NO NO NO !!!!!!!!!
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Strike?
You can't strike if you are fired first. Ask CCAir guys about that. They thought they had that kind of leverage, and look at the position they are in today.
In 4.5 years if this contract is signed it means no furlough threats (he can't do that under the scope clause without pilot approval), no freedom (Mesa Air Group will be unable to play that card ever again), and no whipsawing one pilot group against another to accept a cheaper contract (ala CCAir). If you think that by turning down this contract we'll somehow get something better, you are dreaming.
Do I want to be working for Mesa in 2007? Hell no, just like everyone at the regionals I'm looking towards better things. But if the recovery doesn't happen as fast as it might, I could very well still be here. IN that case I'd much rather have more cards in my deck than JO has in his. Rob him of half his bag of dirty tricks and see how negotiations go then.
Fight the war and win in the long run, don't commit a inglorious suicide and lose it all for everyone.
You can't strike if you are fired first. Ask CCAir guys about that. They thought they had that kind of leverage, and look at the position they are in today.
In 4.5 years if this contract is signed it means no furlough threats (he can't do that under the scope clause without pilot approval), no freedom (Mesa Air Group will be unable to play that card ever again), and no whipsawing one pilot group against another to accept a cheaper contract (ala CCAir). If you think that by turning down this contract we'll somehow get something better, you are dreaming.
Do I want to be working for Mesa in 2007? Hell no, just like everyone at the regionals I'm looking towards better things. But if the recovery doesn't happen as fast as it might, I could very well still be here. IN that case I'd much rather have more cards in my deck than JO has in his. Rob him of half his bag of dirty tricks and see how negotiations go then.
Fight the war and win in the long run, don't commit a inglorious suicide and lose it all for everyone.
BoredToDeath
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2001
- Posts
- 171
Spaceman said, "You say you have scope protection and yet your flying is being bid out to contract carriers. Do you even hear what you are saying? Are you able to connect the dots yet? Get with reality...Go and be shortsighted no more.
Spaceman,
Come back down to earth, your minds to small to wonder out on its own.
Do you even know what scope is. I guarntee you that your scope language is exactlly the same as what most of us have. And yet we've had it for years. Who do you think your gonna scope out. Us or perhaps Mainline. I don't think so. All your language says is that Mesa will not create another alter-ego, ie: Freedom. Well guess what? PSA airlines cannot do that either. And because of other language US Airways Group cannot create an alto-ego. ie: another WO. They can create a division of Mainline which is what they are gonna do instead of MDA.
I see what your saying about Express flying being contracted out and there is no way for us to stop that. Just like Mesa could lose all Airways flying tomorrow and no amount of scope you have would be able to stop it. In order for the WOs to have that kind of power we would first have to be considered for bargining reasons a single carrier with a single sen. list. Well with over 1700 pilots on the street from Mainline. Who the heck would want a single sen. list. They had their chance years ago and said no. Its to late now and they have to wait untill times are good to look for flowthroughs and such.
US Airways Group Flying is being sub-contracted to sub-service companies such as yours because the Mainline pilots control REAL SCOPE. They say how much can be contracted out and thats their shortsightedness not ours.
In closing I'll give you some dots to connect. JO is much smarter than your pilot group. To be in his position he would have to be. So I would try to find out what he really wants if you want to win. I'll bet everything I own that he could give a rats a$$ if you sign or not. One way or the other he will find a way around whatever he just gave you.
And I highly doubt the WOs will go anywhere. We may be losing aircraft shortly, but more will be on the way. The WOs unlike the contract carriers, put Millions of dollars a year into Groups pockets with better than avg. performance. Dave knows he would be a retard to get rid of us.
Spaceman,
Come back down to earth, your minds to small to wonder out on its own.
Do you even know what scope is. I guarntee you that your scope language is exactlly the same as what most of us have. And yet we've had it for years. Who do you think your gonna scope out. Us or perhaps Mainline. I don't think so. All your language says is that Mesa will not create another alter-ego, ie: Freedom. Well guess what? PSA airlines cannot do that either. And because of other language US Airways Group cannot create an alto-ego. ie: another WO. They can create a division of Mainline which is what they are gonna do instead of MDA. I see what your saying about Express flying being contracted out and there is no way for us to stop that. Just like Mesa could lose all Airways flying tomorrow and no amount of scope you have would be able to stop it. In order for the WOs to have that kind of power we would first have to be considered for bargining reasons a single carrier with a single sen. list. Well with over 1700 pilots on the street from Mainline. Who the heck would want a single sen. list. They had their chance years ago and said no. Its to late now and they have to wait untill times are good to look for flowthroughs and such.
US Airways Group Flying is being sub-contracted to sub-service companies such as yours because the Mainline pilots control REAL SCOPE. They say how much can be contracted out and thats their shortsightedness not ours.
In closing I'll give you some dots to connect. JO is much smarter than your pilot group. To be in his position he would have to be. So I would try to find out what he really wants if you want to win. I'll bet everything I own that he could give a rats a$$ if you sign or not. One way or the other he will find a way around whatever he just gave you.
And I highly doubt the WOs will go anywhere. We may be losing aircraft shortly, but more will be on the way. The WOs unlike the contract carriers, put Millions of dollars a year into Groups pockets with better than avg. performance. Dave knows he would be a retard to get rid of us.
embdrvr
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2002
- Posts
- 430
Jeepman said:
Does Sky West currrently operate a 70 or 90 seat aircraft?
Is it a pay cut if you fly a bigger airplane, hopefully short term, for the same amount of money as a slightly smaller one?
To me a pay cut means a reduction in pay.
Or have I misunderstood you and what you're really saying is that you will receive less money than you currently do to fly a 50 seater but your pay gets bumped back to current rates when you fly a 70 seater?
I'm confused.
Intruder One
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2002
- Posts
- 137
TO SPACEMANSPIF:
It will proabably be quite some time before Mesa Air Group no longer needs Mesa. According to other post they only have 7 or 8 aircraft.This would seem the perfect time to force the issue,and it doesen't look like JO is going to do anything voluntarily .Look how long it took Comair to get what they wanted but they finally brought management to its knees, and they had the backing of Delta.JO alone could not surrive with only a Freedumb to pick up the slack.
TO Wile E:
The problem with CCAir the had no leverage,they were in efect to small to have any bargaining power.On the other hand he could not fire or shut down Mesa as he did CCAir or his company would be over.If this man is not forced into a decent deal I don't think at this point he is going to give you one.
It will proabably be quite some time before Mesa Air Group no longer needs Mesa. According to other post they only have 7 or 8 aircraft.This would seem the perfect time to force the issue,and it doesen't look like JO is going to do anything voluntarily .Look how long it took Comair to get what they wanted but they finally brought management to its knees, and they had the backing of Delta.JO alone could not surrive with only a Freedumb to pick up the slack.
TO Wile E:
The problem with CCAir the had no leverage,they were in efect to small to have any bargaining power.On the other hand he could not fire or shut down Mesa as he did CCAir or his company would be over.If this man is not forced into a decent deal I don't think at this point he is going to give you one.
Currently SkyWest only has 50 seat a/c. My guess is that we will probably get 90 seat a/c. I heard all this from SAPA. I don't consider it a pay cut myself, but I am reluctant to do it because some of our own people are labeling it as scab work, which I don't agree with. The same people are probably the ones that will vote in a union (UPA) for us and really throw things in the toilet. One of the first things that the UPA wants to do is get medical benefits after we rertire. As much as I would love that, NOW IS NOTE THE TIME!! for that or a union.
Some real good points being tossed around. I agree that you cannot compare the fate of CCair with that of Mesa's should you choose to vote this down....and you definitely should. You guys are over TEN times the size CCair was. Thats a huge difference, and there is no better time than now to stand up for what you deserve. Most importantly this TA is waaaaay too long at 4.5 years. You may get a bunch of jets and upgrade fast, but you will be screwing the people at the bottom of YOUR list when hiring slows down..... not just other companies trying to get a decent contract (CHQ). 8 days off on reserve! 1.15 per diem!! thats crazy . Why not submit this piece of $hit TA to the press, its a total insult to the piloting profession. If you are under the impression that by voting this in now, you will have something to stand on in 4.5 years think again. Management is more clever than you think and JO WILL have more dirty tricks, thats something you can count on. Seems as though your MEC sold you out on this one....I hear they are 'recommending' this TA too. Someone is getting a little something on the side. You guys have the ability just like the comair folks did to do some good here. Good luck.
embdrvr
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2002
- Posts
- 430
Jeepman said:
I'd love to see any union get your management to commit to a totally unknown and unprojectable expense. It's lofty and unreachable goal IMHO. I think you'd have a better shot at a pension. Do you think that the union will get voted in? I'd be surprised that anyone would take them seriously if they're talking about nonsensical ideas like guaranteed health benefits after retirement in this revenue environment. I'd be more concerned about just having a job that long.
Best of luck either way.
DASHDRIVER
Uber User
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2001
- Posts
- 265
I am in a WO and do not envy MESA's decision at all. I know that I would be able to vote no. But, that is easy for me to say on the outside. I know that this is not the best time to hold every one together in a strong stand for the industry. Yet, the line has to be drawn somwhere. If it doesn't happen now with the lowest bar, next time our negotiations (PDT) come around we will be trapped by the same problems. "Well, thats fine you want livable wages, work rules and benifits, MESA over there will do it for half..." I hope you see where we are coming from.
I wish the best for MESA's contract, if you win, we all win.
I wish the best for MESA's contract, if you win, we all win.
The thing about this contract.
It is better than what we are flying now. Not much better granted, but there are some minor improvements and nothing has gotten any worse. That this TA is so crappy says more about how crappy the former contract that the union negotiated more than anything else. Are we happy that this is going to be 4 and a half years? No, not at all. Would three be better, sure, but that's what we are given. Are we pissed off at the union for not doing better? Hell yes. Is anyone suprised? Hell no. We're still second class citizens as far as ALPA is concerned and we'll always get the short stick. Is there anything we can do about it and still have a job? Probably not, that's the problem with working in a closed shop industry.
Bored, as far as our scope goes, this is supposedly the most ironclad and far reaching scope at any airline anywhere. This scope was written by the union and presented to the company. It's the union's dream scope and JO took it withou modifications in exchange for this contract, that's why it was a mistake for him to take it as written and is why the union is so committed to passing the TA. The scope in the TA is not a negotiated clause at all, it is straight from the union lawyers.
The important thing for those people who will actually vote is to go to the road shows and ask questions. If they still don't like the answers, they can vote an informed no, not purely an emotional one. And if 51% vote no, then don't be suprised if anyone not willing to fly for Freedom is on the street in six months instead of flying as a jet captain.
It is better than what we are flying now. Not much better granted, but there are some minor improvements and nothing has gotten any worse. That this TA is so crappy says more about how crappy the former contract that the union negotiated more than anything else. Are we happy that this is going to be 4 and a half years? No, not at all. Would three be better, sure, but that's what we are given. Are we pissed off at the union for not doing better? Hell yes. Is anyone suprised? Hell no. We're still second class citizens as far as ALPA is concerned and we'll always get the short stick. Is there anything we can do about it and still have a job? Probably not, that's the problem with working in a closed shop industry.
Bored, as far as our scope goes, this is supposedly the most ironclad and far reaching scope at any airline anywhere. This scope was written by the union and presented to the company. It's the union's dream scope and JO took it withou modifications in exchange for this contract, that's why it was a mistake for him to take it as written and is why the union is so committed to passing the TA. The scope in the TA is not a negotiated clause at all, it is straight from the union lawyers.
The important thing for those people who will actually vote is to go to the road shows and ask questions. If they still don't like the answers, they can vote an informed no, not purely an emotional one. And if 51% vote no, then don't be suprised if anyone not willing to fly for Freedom is on the street in six months instead of flying as a jet captain.
WileE "we're still second class citizens as far as Alpa is concerned and will always get the short end of the stick."
I think you are way off base. Didn't Alpa just allocate several million dollars in strike funds for Mesa? Isn't there quite a bit of coverage on the negative ramifications of working for Freedom on the Alpa webpage. Just a couple years ago Comair revolutionized the regional industry through a tough, tight knit pilot group being led by a rock solid MEC. I don't think Mesa has either of those and the shortcomings of this TA should be attributed to your MEC rather than Alpa national. They can give you the tools to go out and fight for a contract that pays you what you are worth but you gus have to do the work. Who voted in your MEC and who do they really represent? I sure wouldn't want to count on things improving in 4.5 years because by then JO would have found something horrible to do and will once again agree to get rid of problem XYZ in exchange for you accepting dog sh#t wages and work rules for another 5 years. That's just my .02 cents.
I think you are way off base. Didn't Alpa just allocate several million dollars in strike funds for Mesa? Isn't there quite a bit of coverage on the negative ramifications of working for Freedom on the Alpa webpage. Just a couple years ago Comair revolutionized the regional industry through a tough, tight knit pilot group being led by a rock solid MEC. I don't think Mesa has either of those and the shortcomings of this TA should be attributed to your MEC rather than Alpa national. They can give you the tools to go out and fight for a contract that pays you what you are worth but you gus have to do the work. Who voted in your MEC and who do they really represent? I sure wouldn't want to count on things improving in 4.5 years because by then JO would have found something horrible to do and will once again agree to get rid of problem XYZ in exchange for you accepting dog sh#t wages and work rules for another 5 years. That's just my .02 cents.
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