MESA TA Question

[Mayday911]

If Mesa votes no and the pilots strike, there is no way that JO can transfer all the flying and assets to Freedom in order to fulfill the feeder contracts. The current President may not let you strike for longer than a minute, but you will make a point.

I gladly paid the assesments for the Comair strike, and I will gladly pay the assesments for the Mesa pilots. You help the entire industry and we will help you.

Mayday

 

[ACABlueridge]

fam62 excellent post

There has to be a big element of bluff here or he would just steamroll over you right now and break the union altogether while he has a window of opportunity. My guess is that the cost and complexity to totally circumvent ALPA and redesign the wheel from scratch would be astronomical.


I think this pretty well sums it up. JO must have a huge set to be bluffing like this. I say call him on it.

I gladly paid the assesments for the Comair strike, and I will gladly pay the assesments for the Mesa pilots. You help the entire industry and we will help you.

I think to put JO in his place and to get the Mesa guys a decent contract we will all gladly pay the assessment.

Stay unified!!

 

[cheezpilot]

sad contract

I have not read all the posts above but get the big picture. Sorry if I repeat some things but here are a few things I noticed immediately that need to be addressed. Mesa should not settle for a TA that is not even industry average (it is below that of Comair, ACA, Skywest(no contract but better than this), Air Wisconsin, ASA and certain parts are below that of even Eagle). The pay is bad. Those that argue that this TA has quality of life are living in a box. You should at least get 11 to 12 days off a month. All the new contracts that have come out in the last few years have that. By voting for this contract we are going back in time.
The regionals might be the only airline some of us work for and you need to think of the future. The majors are not going to be the same as in the past. The 401k might be some of the only retirement some of us get and 2% match sucks. Social Security and pensions are a thing of the past for those of us that still have thirty years of flying to do. I think your MEC has sold you out and you deserve a lot more than this. These statements are even taking into account our current state of the economy. The regionals that pay better and have a contract better than this are still making money. Think about it. JO would have you believe that Mesa will go out of business if you get more. He is a liar.

 

[captjim]

Re: sad contract

I have not read all the posts above but get the big picture. Sorry if I repeat some things but here are a few things I noticed immediately that need to be addressed. Mesa should not settle for a TA that is not even industry average (it is below that of Comair, ACA, Skywest(no contract but better than this), Air Wisconsin, ASA and certain parts are below that of even Eagle). The pay is bad. Those that argue that this TA has quality of life are living in a box. You should at least get 11 to 12 days off a month. All the new contracts that have come out in the last few years have that. By voting for this contract we are going back in time.
The regionals might be the only airline some of us work for and you need to think of the future. The majors are not going to be the same as in the past. The 401k might be some of the only retirement some of us get and 2% match sucks. Social Security and pensions are a thing of the past for those of us that still have thirty years of flying to do. I think your MEC has sold you out and you deserve a lot more than this. These statements are even taking into account our current state of the economy. The regionals that pay better and have a contract better than this are still making money. Think about it. JO would have you believe that Mesa will go out of business if you get more. He is a liar.

Cheezpilot, your post is right on the nose. Good post.

 

[sweatro]

Vote No Please

Mesa Guys/Gals,

Please vote that P.O.S. down. YOU are better than that. Almost everyone else has a better contract than that TA now. As a COEX pilot currently in negotiations I know that would be a voted down by 99 percent here.

 

[WileE]

Bottom Line.

You either believe ALPA or you don't.

If you believe the union is telling the truth:

The TA passes, major growth at Mesa and we are in position to get that industry leading contract at the end of the contract when the industry is hopefully in a much better place.

If you vote no:

Air Midwest is sold off lock, stock and barrel and any pilots at Mesa unwilling to go over to Freedom are out on the street. Not further negotiations, not strike, out of a job.


If you don't believe what the union is saying than you believe everyone of their reps is out and out lying to our faces and are willing to take your chances that somehow in this economy further negotiations will get something better. Sounds like you would be better off at Freedom anyway if you have that little faith in ALPA.


My only question is how is having another 1300 pilots out of work in this economy is somehow going to help the industry as a whole right now?

 

[Intruder One]

He could sell them off anyway if thats what he has in mind.JO is not to be reasoned with,force is the only thing at this point he is going to understand.No lawyers,bankrupcy judge,ALPA,labor mediator or anyone else for that matter are going to blame you for turning down that crap.It is an insult!Other post have said this is not the time to fight,it is the perfect time.Remember mainline needs you now more than ever.If Comair can make money with their contract so can JO,and don't think they don't know this.A NO VOTE will wake everyone up,this is not a one way street.

 

[Flying"C"ranchr]

Current TA needs to be sent back

This TA is unacceptable,. If Air Midwest goes away... so be it. If we get fired... so be it. I will survive, and so will everyone else.
Many of us didn't come this far to live and work in these conditions.

I would rather do something and lose. Rather than do nothing and lose. If this TA is a lose-lose, I would rather go down swinging.

Ranch'r

 

[ACABlueridge]

Gimme a break

<<Snip>>
If you believe the union is telling the truth:

The TA passes, major growth at Mesa and we are in position to get that industry leading contract at the end of the contract when the industry is hopefully in a much better place.

You have got to be kidding me. You are not even trying for an exceptable contract now, you think you will get an industry leading contract in five years? In the meantime your supposed growth is going to come at the expense of hundreds of fellow pilots out there. How does that make you feel?

<<Snip>>
If you vote no:

Air Midwest is sold off lock, stock and barrel and any pilots at Mesa unwilling to go over to Freedom are out on the street. Not further negotiations, not strike, out of a job.

JO, I mean Wile

Once again, you have got to be kidding me. Sold off just like that, happens all the time in aviation doesn't it. It is always cheaper to sell off a company than to negotiate a livable contract.

JO, I mean WileE are you that naieve? With attitude like that this POS TA will pass and the WHOLE industry suffers.

P.S. Enjoy the whopping eight days off a month.

 

[WileE]

Fine.

Some folks will happy to stand in the unemployment line, proud of their valiant stand in a losing battle. Others would rather pick their battles in a time and place where they can win. All righteous fantasies asside (especially from those whose jobs aren't on the line with this vote), right now is not that time.

 

[captjim]

Re: Fine.

Some folks will happy to stand in the unemployment line, proud of their valiant stand in a losing battle. Others would rather pick their battles in a time and place where they can win. All righteous fantasies asside (especially from those whose jobs aren't on the line with this vote), right now is not that time.

With all due respect WileE, there has never been "the right time" at Mesa. You guys are the bottom feeders of the industry and for a long time, and with that attitude will continue to be.

Sounds like you'd rather go do curled in the fetal position rather than swinging.

 

[Herman Bloom]

The folks over at Comair risked it all a couple of years ago because they knew it was worth it to the whole industry. I don't remember hearing many of them claiming it would be better to wait it out for the next contract. And before you even say it, I know it was a "different time" back then....but were the regionals making significantly more money two years ago then they are now?

 

[jobear]

RE:TA

Everyone at Mesa should look at things in the light of Day JO CANNOT afford to close the doors,the contractual obligations to the airlines you fly for wouldn't allow it.

Please vote this down if you don't we are next. With several other airlines in negtiations Mesaba,Pinnacle, and others it's not just YOU that you hurt it is all your fellow aviators.

VOTE NO
Jobear

 

[ACABlueridge]

<<Snip>>

With all due respect WileE, there has never been "the right time" at Mesa. You guys are the bottom feeders of the industry for a long time, and with that attitude will continue to be.

Let me reiterate You guys are the BOTTOM FEEDERS!! And I say this not as a personal attack on any Mesa Pilots but because of your contract.

WileE, why do you think waiting another five friggin years will give you an industry leading contract. Why not fight for one now? Don't tell me because of the state of the industry. Mesa IS making money and always will, especially at the rates you guys get paid. Your are buying in way too much into what JO is saying, listen to some of your fellow pilots. We have all been through contract negotiations in some form or another and we all get fed the same BS and doom and gloom from management.

Difference is some buy into it like you, but most do not.

 

[ACABlueridge]

And just a side note about the Comair strike. Again I have all the respect in the world for that pilot group they stood up and said enough is enough. We want something now! I hope enough Mesa folks feel the same way.

Stay unified.

 

[DoinTime]

The TA passes, major growth at Mesa and we are in position to get that industry leading contract at the end of the contract when the industry is hopefully in a much better place.

If you guys had any proof that growth was just around the corner I might not of condemed you so quick. Mesa doesn't have significant aircraft orders. One of Mesa's significant codeshare partners is on the brink of Chapter 7. The brightest hope for growth is a contract with another carrier that is on the brink of Chapter 7. Never bank on growth. Believe it when you see it.

A more likely scenario is a new corporation (funded by MAG) buys the turboprop assets system wide and turns them into a third tier regional while MAG goes to an all jet fleet much smaller than it is in its current form. I hope your not asking where the growth is then.

 

[chillidawg]

Quality of life

I'm not gonna make money at Mesa, I know that. All I want is better quality of life. This junk about 9 days off as a line holder and 8 as a reserve guy is just rediculus. I will vote no unless this changes.

 

[SELFloadingCRGO]

I guess I am trying to put together everyones reasoning here. Are Mesa pilots fools for getting a small increase in pay, in lieu of getting industry leading scope that keep them flying their airplanes? I guess if they are fools for accepting a small increase in pay, then what does that make the pilots at USAir and United for taking pay cuts? With American and Delta most certain to follow, I guess they are fools as well. I realize that they still have some QOL issues to address, but can they ask for everything like Comair did considering the state of the world. The airlines aren't the only ones that are laying people off. So finding another job during this low swing in the economy makes things rather difficult. Holding onto ones job certainly has new meaning these days if you think about it. I wonder how Chautaqua, Mesaba, and how many others will feel when their flying is "given" to non union/lower cost start ups like Republic and any other company that will follow suit. I bet they will want the kind of scope the Mesa guys will have if they sign this TA.
For those that are fortunate enough to have a backup plan that is great, but others may not be that fortunate. Is it right for you or I to criticize them for making a decision that they feel is the right one, absolutely not.
Seriously, does anyone really think the current state of the industry, and other events such as the economy or potential war have nothing to do with negotiations, regional level or not?
I am curious to see the ridicule there will be if and when they sign off on the TA that is before them.

SLC

 

[WileE]

Just a couple points.

Mesa already has 59 new jets financed and scheduled for delivery this year. 46 CRJ's (I don't know the split between 700/900's and 200's, but a significant percentage are the larger aircraft) and 13 ERJ's. Those are only the ones paid for and confirmed for delivery right now, there are options for several more. A lot of those are for J4J, the rest for America West or Frontier Express. This is coming from a union rep I know who was at the table during the negotiations in PHX.

If the TA is signed, management at MAG can't transfer assets to another carrier, or start up any other carriers without approval of the pilot group. He can't sell or get rid of the props or the prop pilots them without getting our permission first, which isn't going to happen. That's the kind of scope this agreement has. Can JO go out on his own and start a carrier? Sure, but he is no longer able to use any of MAG assets, personnel the company credit rating to do so. If he wants to finance one he can only do so based on his own personal finances, not with corporate funds like he did with Freedom. Management can't even furlough under the new scope without pilot permission.

Do I think Johnny O would cost the company as much money as it would cost to close out the union pilots? Considering the bastard's recent history, heck yeah I think he would do it. The man has no accountability to his boardmembers, the majority of them he hand picked from companies he owned, that's how he became CEO after all. This is the same guy that wasted millions of dollars by furloughing a quarter of his pilot group last year for eight months for the sole purpose of spiting the union, there was no financial reason for it. He is also the guy who has wasted millions starting up another company like Freedom for the sole purpose of whipsawing Mesa pilots. He took a 26 million loss just last year in closing out CCAir, just to turn around and fly the exact same system with 1900's, closing profitable routes at the same time to do it.

If it is the price of getting ALPA off property, this guy would burn down his own house in a heartbeat and start building again from the ashes.


What this all comes down to is that ALPA and anybody willing to see the forest inspite of the trees knows that we aren't in a position to bargain for more right now. The biggest reason we aren't in a better position and are going to take it in the shorts again rests solely on the shoulders of the pilots who abandoned Mesa to fly for Freedom, may they rot. If none of those guys screwed over their comrades at Mesa, Freedom never could have gotten started. Without Freedom, JO wouldn't be in a position to shut down Mesa. Without Freedom, ALPA would be able to focus more on the QOL and pay issues and scope wouldn't be such a big deal.

No one can possibly overstate the long term damage those guys that left Mesa for Freedom did not only to their fellow pilots, but to all you guys complaining about this contract. Sure, criticize us for trying to get a little job security in our lives, but save your worst ire for those who screwed us all.

 

[DoinTime]

WileE....

For how well you think you know JO you would think you two are one in the same. I could sit and shoot holes through your arguments all night but I don't really care enough to do it. Even if you had airtight scope (which is impossible) your contract is only as strong as your MEC. Your MEC's support for this TA shows significant weekness. JO will walk all over you, and your scope, because you won't stand up.