MESA TA Question

[big dog1]

It said this Crap Ta will most likely pass. As for the road show we havent even been given a copy of the full TA!!! This is a bunch os BS piss poor on our Mec they are a bunch of pusses!!!!

 

[WileE]

B1900FO

A couple million for over a thousand pilots isn't going to go very far now is it? ALPA national was all over this negotiation process, not just local Mesa reps. Their primary goal was to get rid of Freedom, not to work out the best for Mesa itself. You say we are supposed to do the work, but National and our MEC is telling us it's this contract or nothing. Yet the union will not even show us anything more than the rough outline of the agreement to review. Basic pilots obviously can't be trusted with such information.

So we either believe our union when they say they did the best for us, or we don't. Either they are telling us the truth, or they are lying to the pilot group right to our faces. And this isn't just our MEC, this is coming straight from national which reviewed and approved the TA. It can't be both things. You either believe the union and vote yes on the contract or believe that our own reps are lying through their teeth and vote no. That's the real decision here.

So, the union says that this is the best we can do in todays environment, it will mean job security, growth and a much better negotiation position down the road. They say the alternative is the liquidation of Mesa in favor of Freedom and termination of all the Mesa pilots. Not more negotiations. Not a possible strike. They say it means kiss your job goodbye. In light of that I say vote yes. Live to fight another day.

 

[Intruder One]

They said vote for this or else at at CCAir also,the pilots said or else so he shut them down.Whats he going to do at Mesa shut it down and go home,I don't think so.Jo does have a board of directors and others(code share partners) that he has to answer to.This canot possibly look good for him.Let's say he does try to build up Freedumb to shut you down,how long is that going to take?He can't turn them into a 1200 or so pilot airline overnight,even if he got CCAir on board(which he couldn't) it still would not be enough.Now is the time to strike before he has the time to bring in renforcements.You will never have him more over a barrel than you do now.Once he has time to build up Freedumb its game over.

 

[StaySeated]

CCair

I may be wrong but I think that the CCair pilot's actually voted yes but DW would not sign the concessionary agreement because it was so bad. Again, I may have my facts backwards but we are in negotiations as well and this situation was discussed at length.

In my opinion, it would be a huge mistake for Mesa pilots to be scared by the CCair events. Two very different situations. JO is using the whole situation as a scare tactic and I can just see his slimy @ss giggling under his rock right now thinking his gloom and doom will force you into what sounds like a horrible deal.

One last comment, ALL SCOPE LANGUAGE has proven to be worthless. DAL, UAL, TWA, EAL, worthless worthless worthless. Please do not sign a contract because it has "great Scope language". There is no such thing. I repeat, ALL SCOPE LANGUAGE is worthless. There is always a way around the language.

 

[big dog1]

I do not understand how JO had so much power over us! HP new contract said they could'nt do use Freedom. U said to do J4J it had to be a union airline. So why night fight for a better contract?>

 

[WileE]

He doesn't need 1200 pilots.

Freedom would start with less than half that. Don't forget that more than half of Mesa's list is made up of 1900 guys. He already has a buyer for Air Midwest so that's half his seats gone. He had at least 120 pilots already signed up for Freedom ground school that were put on hold when the TA was signed. As everyone is very quick to mention, there are plenty of pilots out there willing to fly for anyone as long as they fly. He is already halfway there and it would be only a couple months before he'd have the jet side back to current levels under Freedom. He'd gladly take that hit to spite the union, he has that kind of ego.

Also, if this TA isn't signed into contract, JO's J4J is gone anyway. Us not signing is a deal breaker as much as him switching all the flying to Freedom, so if we don't sign, there is no incentive for the USAir flying and he can shop around as he wants for codeshares who will be willing to deal with Freedom (word is that United is one of them, the management aren't pushing for a union carrier and it would be up to the bancrupcy court if it would be allowed). As far as America West's pilots go, their scope clause banning Freedom was in a TA that has already been rejected by their pilots from what I understand. Who knows whether or not that language will still be in the contract in the next version. Plus that will still be months and months down the road before they have to worry about it. AmWest management is obviously more than willing to deal with Freedom and has made it clear they want more rj's as soon as possible.

As far as JO's board goes, he doesn't have to worry about them because he's the one that put them all there. That's how he got the position of CEO, all of them are toady's to him. The last thing he has to worry about is any kind of accountability.

 

[dakotaHC8]

Ahhhh, you know, spaceman is right guys.

The Mesa pilots have once again stood firm and shown what they stand for, you have to respect that.

Of course what they stand for is simply "ME ME ME ME, GIMMIE UPGRADE, GIMMIE JET TIME, MEMEMEMEME!!!!!!!". well at least somethings remain constant in this shifting industry.

Well. Im looking at the future boys and girls. Mesa pilots will pay to get some more jets and one list (again). While we at the wholly owned will have to make due with our own jets and a flow thru up into US Airways.

Ohhhhh, you didnt get a flow thru with your new agreement at Mesa, oooops. Geeze, it's about the only thing that makes JFJ palatable for us. What are you guys thinking?

You know, things are really changing, many of the old school methods of getting on with a major carrier will no longer be around in the future. Doubt me? You shouldnt... US Airways and their wholly owneds have shown the way. Look at what is going on at American with their one list proposal, Delta and ASA with the preferential hiring. It is clear that this is just starting and the direction things are heading is for a closer association between the various pilot groups inside the same organization.

Make no mistake, ALPA will follow the lead of what the major airline MEC's desire, and may have to push for such a thing to resolve thorny representation and job protection issues. It is apparent that only through cooperation and senority intergration gained by established flow thru will the current mess be resolved. It's too bad that such changes will leave pilots at places like Mesa on their own, but oh well.

So enjoy your new Mesa contract, because you will be working under it for a long time. Still feel cocky...?

 

[big dog1]

This is why we should vote NO!!!!!!!!!!!

Pilots will receive hourly flight pay based on their status (position/equipment) and length of service with the Company as follows: AND NO QOL

1. 0 - 19 Seat Turboprop Aircraft

DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS + 54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $28.72 $18.15 $29.29 $18.51 $29.88 $18.88 $30.48 $19.26
2 $30.07 $20.39 $30.67 $20.80 $31.28 $21.22 $31.91 $21.64
3 $31.64 $21.98 $32.27 $22.42 $32.92 $22.87 $33.58 $23.33
4 $33.29 $23.63 $33.96 $24.10 $34.64 $24.58 $35.33 $25.07
5 $34.83 $24.33 $35.53 $24.81 $36.24 $25.30 $36.96 $25.80
6 $36.27 $36.99 $37.73 $38.49
7 $37.35 $38.10 $38.86 $39.64
8 $38.46 $39.23 $40.01 $40.81


2. 20 - 74 Seat Turboprop Aircraft

DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS + 54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $37.64 $18.15 $38.39 $18.51 $39.16 $18.88 $39.94 $19.26
2 $39.10 $20.39 $39.88 $20.80 $40.68 $21.22 $41.49 $21.64
3 $40.52 $21.98 $41.33 $22.42 $42.16 $22.87 $43.00 $23.33
4 $42.19 $23.63 $43.03 $24.10 $43.89 $24.58 $44.77 $25.07
5 $43.70 $24.33 $44.57 $24.81 $45.46 $25.30 $46.37 $25.80
6 $45.23 $46.13 $47.05 $47.99
7 $46.48 $47.41 $48.36 $49.33
8 $47.78 $48.74 $49.71 $50.70
9 $49.07 $50.05 $51.05 $52.07
10 $50.34 $51.35 $52.38 $53.43
11 $51.72 $52.75 $53.81 $54.89
12 $52.84 $53.90 $54.98 $56.08
13 $53.66 $54.73 $55.82 $56.94
14 $54.49 $55.58 $56.69 $57.83

3. 50 to 59 Seat Jet Aircraft

DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS + 54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $51.17 $20.47 $52.19 $20.88 $53.24 $21.30 $54.30 $21.72
2 $52.76 $27.42 $53.82 $27.97 $54.89 $28.53 $55.99 $29.10
3 $54.35 $30.59 $55.44 $31.20 $56.55 $31.83 $57.68 $32.46
4 $55.99 $31.90 $57.11 $32.54 $58.25 $33.19 $59.42 $33.85
5 $57.64 $32.85 $58.79 $33.51 $59.97 $34.18 $61.17 $34.86
6 $59.32 $33.62 $60.51 $34.29 $61.72 $34.98 $62.95 $35.68
7 $60.94 $34.07 $62.16 $34.75 $63.40 $35.45 $64.67 $36.16
8 $62.90 $34.55 $64.16 $35.24 $65.44 $35.95 $66.75 $36.66
9 $64.83 $35.04 $66.13 $35.74 $67.45 $36.45 $68.80 $37.18
10 $66.82 $68.16 $69.52 $70.91
11 $68.75 $70.13 $71.53 $72.96
12 $70.85 $72.27 $73.71 $75.19
13 $72.95 $74.41 $75.90 $77.42
14 $75.21 $76.71 $78.25 $79.81
15 $76.26 $77.79 $79.34 $80.93

4. 60 – 76 Seat Jet Aircraft

Effective DOS:
DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS +
54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $53.86 $20.47 $54.94 $20.88 $56.04 $21.30 $57.16 $21.72
2 $55.50 $27.42 $56.61 $27.97 $57.74 $28.53 $58.89 $29.10
3 $57.17 $30.59 $58.31 $31.20 $59.48 $31.83 $60.67 $32.46
4 $58.91 $31.90 $60.09 $32.54 $61.29 $33.19 $62.52 $33.85
5 $60.68 $32.85 $61.89 $33.51 $63.13 $34.18 $64.39 $34.86
6 $62.50 $33.62 $63.75 $34.29 $65.03 $34.98 $66.33 $35.68
7 $64.37 $34.07 $65.65 $34.75 $66.97 $35.45 $68.30 $36.16
8 $66.30 $34.55 $67.62 $35.24 $68.97 $35.95 $70.35 $36.66
9 $68.29 $35.04 $69.65 $35.74 $71.04 $36.45 $72.46 $37.18
10 $70.34 $71.74 $73.18 $74.64
11 $72.45 $73.89 $75.37 $76.88
12 $74.63 $76.12 $77.64 $79.19
13 $76.86 $78.39 $79.96 $81.56
14 $79.17 $80.75 $82.36 $84.01
15 $81.55 $83.18 $84.84 $86.54
16 $82.85 $84.50 $86.19 $87.92
17 $84.18 $85.86 $87.58 $89.33
18 $85.52 $87.23 $88.97 $90.75
19 $86.89 $88.62 $90.40 $92.20
20 $88.36 $90.12 $91.92 $93.76


5. > 76 Seats < = 86k lbs Jet Aircraft

Effective DOS:
DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS +
54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $57.90 $20.47 $59.06 $20.88 $60.24 $21.30 $61.44 $21.72
2 $59.67 $27.42 $60.86 $27.97 $62.08 $28.53 $63.32 $29.10
3 $61.48 $30.59 $62.71 $31.20 $63.96 $31.83 $65.24 $32.46
4 $63.33 $31.90 $64.60 $32.54 $65.89 $33.19 $67.21 $33.85
5 $65.25 $32.85 $66.56 $33.51 $67.89 $34.18 $69.25 $34.86
6 $67.19 $33.62 $68.53 $34.29 $69.90 $34.98 $71.30 $35.68
7 $68.85 $34.07 $70.23 $34.75 $71.63 $35.45 $73.06 $36.16
8 $70.95 $34.55 $72.37 $35.24 $73.82 $35.95 $75.30 $36.66
9 $73.13 $35.04 $74.59 $35.74 $76.08 $36.45 $77.60 $37.18
10 $75.33 $76.84 $78.38 $79.95
11 $77.58 $79.13 $80.71 $82.32
12 $79.93 $81.53 $83.16 $84.82
13 $82.33 $83.98 $85.66 $87.37
14 $84.82 $86.52 $88.25 $90.02
15 $86.94 $88.68 $90.45 $92.26
16 $89.11 $90.89 $92.71 $94.56
17 $91.34 $93.17 $95.03 $96.93
18 $93.62 $95.49 $97.40 $99.35
19 $95.96 $97.88 $99.84 $101.84
20 $98.36 $100.33 $102.34 $104.39

 

[WileE]

Dakota.

I might be missing something, but which of the wholly owneds have already signed on with J4Js? I've heard a lot of talk about which ones might be signing on in the future, but I was unaware that anybody has actually signed a contract for it besides Mesa, which signed it back in October. Again, if your WO has put a j4j agreement in writing, please enlighten me with some details (seriously, if it has happened I'd be interested in hearing about it).

As far as flow up into mainline US Air goes, if this is in fact part of your j4j agreement, so what? Talk is that if everything goes according to plan mainline might begin recalling their furloughees back in what, 5 to 7 years? So we should sign an agreement that would maybe get flow up for some started ten years or more down the road? I'm sorry, but I have yet to meet anyone working for Mesa who even wants to work for USAir. So why should we push for flow up into a company that may, possibly hire us into the right seat of a jet 10-15 years down the road when there will probably be a lot of hiring on other majors 5 years down the road?

As far as the pay scale goes, are there any airlines whose employees are in contract negotiations right now that look like they will be getting pay raises? It seems the most common thing right now is to settle for pay cuts. At least Mesa hasn't taken any concessions. That's the problem with most people, they would sell their soul for a slight pay raise tomorrow instead of being in a position to really set the standard for pay and benefits at a regional airline down the road. You can't bargain for industry leading contracts from a position of total weakness. Leave that for later when we hold all the cards. Miracles don't occur over night, give it time.

 

[CHQdude]

Wile,

I think you are looking too much at the big picture of the industry instead of focusing on your company. You're not flying for Usair, American, United, or any other airline that is loosing money right now. You are flying for the one part of the industry that IS making money. Trust me we at CHQ have been showered with articles about the terrible industry in every company memo. Lucky for us BB had to present the numbers earlier when he wanted to go public with us. Guess what? We're making a bunch of money. Guess what again? If we get a decent contract the company will STILL make a bunch of money, and I'm sure yours will too. Ever ask yourself how Air whiskey/comair can be profitable w/ their contract but somehow you can't??? I know I do! Just my humble opinion. Good luck.