MESA TA Question

[BoredToDeath]

Re: Dakota.

I might be missing something, but which of the wholly owneds have already signed on with J4Js? I've heard a lot of talk about which ones might be signing on in the future, but I was unaware that anybody has actually signed a contract for it besides Mesa, which signed it back in October. Again, if your WO has put a j4j agreement in writing, please enlighten me with some details (seriously, if it has happened I'd be interested in hearing about it).

As far as flow up into mainline US Air goes, if this is in fact part of your j4j agreement, so what? Talk is that if everything goes according to plan mainline might begin recalling their furloughees back in what, 5 to 7 years? So we should sign an agreement that would maybe get flow up for some started ten years or more down the road? I'm sorry, but I have yet to meet anyone working for Mesa who even wants to work for USAir. So why should we push for flow up into a company that may, possibly hire us into the right seat of a jet 10-15 years down the road when there will probably be a lot of hiring on other majors 5 years down the road?

As far as the pay scale goes, are there any airlines whose employees are in contract negotiations right now that look like they will be getting pay raises? It seems the most common thing right now is to settle for pay cuts. At least Mesa hasn't taken any concessions. That's the problem with most people, they would sell their soul for a slight pay raise tomorrow instead of being in a position to really set the standard for pay and benefits at a regional airline down the road. You can't bargain for industry leading contracts from a position of total weakness. Leave that for later when we hold all the cards. Miracles don't occur over night, give it time.

WileE,

It's funny that on another thread you bashed one of my fellow WO brothers for posting information that was old, yet you don't seem to know about things that happened months ago.


1.) PSA signed on to J4J during the middle of last year when the MEC forced it upon the pilot group "without" membership ratification. The other two WOs followed shortly after. They were allowed to vote. Mesa did not sign an agreement on J4J in Oct. like you say. The only agreement for J4J with Mesa is in your current TA which has yet to be ratified. PSA, PDT, ALG and Midway are the only carriers with Jets4Jobs agreements in place.

2.) To address you second paragraph. Jets4Jobs for Contract Carriers, ie: Midway, Mesa, CHQ, TSA, ect... will not be the same as it is for the WO. The terms are set up in a way that(and I'll try and keep it simple) in order to flow you have to currently be a Mainline furloghee or WO pilot. Keep in mind this is the way its supposed to work, and with MidAtlantic further away from starting than ever, who knows.

All Mainline furloughees will go to MidAtlantic and as positions open up at Mainline those at MDA(MidAtlantic) will go back to Mainline, thus creating an opening for the WO pilots to fill at MDA eventually bleeding out the pilot list at the WOs and ending up with one express carrier. When positions open up at Mainline again then the WO pilots who would now be at MDA will then flow to Mainline. That would be the point where US Airways will then hire into MDA. In other words, No more outside hiring for a very long time and no contract carrier pilot can go to MDA until the WO pilots have flowed. Nothing can be done on US Airways Group property(ie; Mainline, PDT, PSA, ALG or MDA) until out of bankruptcy.

As far as this comment you made: "I'm sorry, but I have yet to meet anyone working for Mesa who even wants to work for USAir. "

This is one of the other reasons WO pilots don't want you Contract Carriers here.

You also said, "It seems the most common thing right now is to settle for pay cuts."

If I asked you to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge, would you? Try to be a leader the community is watching.

And I could'nt forget,"At least Mesa hasn't taken any concessions."

Could you actually go lower than you are now?

 

[hawkowl88]

Vote no

Being a former Mesa pilot who now flys for SKYW, I urge all Mesa pilots to vote NO! You are already at the bottom of the industry payscale--please don't drag down the rest of us. Sh*t-talk-what? is the lowest I believe and a pox on their house. All we hear over at SKYW is how we have to be paid the least in the industry in order to be competitive. We must draw a line in the sand and say "this far, and no farther!" I for one will vote for a union just to prevent unilateral payscale changes by our beloved management. They have the shareholders best interest at heart (as they should) not the employees. I am both.

Vote NO! and stop the erosion of wages. Capitalism and competition is a process not a result. In order to be fair competition has to occur in a free market and the airline industy ain't it. Spare me the Econ101 arguments because according to the M.A. I have, labor economics is more like Econ 826!

Vote NO!

 

[Flying"C"ranchr]

Vote Down YES

This TA is not worth much. I'm voting it down. I hope most Mesa pilots see the light too. Upgrade isn't everything. No jump seat clause, only eight days off for reserve, too many five day trips, no daily minimum hour pay, $1.15 per diem, average 11 days off per bid (actually only nine after intergration)... is very sad.

If this TA gets voted in... I will leave the company. It's not worth it.

Ranch'r

 

[CHQdude]

J4J

2.) To address you second paragraph. Jets4Jobs for Contract Carriers, ie: Midway, Mesa, CHQ, TSA, ect... will not be the same as it is for the WO. [/B]

We voted J4J down here at CHQ.

Sh*t-talk-what? is the lowest I believe and a pox on their house

Compared to Mesa's TA our contract is golden! Sad but true.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

It looks like jo may want the j4j thing so badly that he will be more than willing to sit back down after you vote no . It took us voting dowm two "final offers" , under the threat of liquidation, to get the company to get serious.
I have seen it, and I know what you guys and gals are up against. There is no way in hell he is going to scrap the airline over this. He knows he can afford what we have at Comair, he just does not want to pay it. And he won't, unless you make him.

We were on strike for 89 days, and we all all doing just fine now. You can survive, just as we did. Will it be easy? Not for most. I saved money for two solid years knowing we would be out for a while, others did not. But we all survived and have a contract that is WAY better than the "second final offer" they attempted to shove down our throats.

Stand strong, stand united!!!!

 

[ChinaClipper]

JO says.......

sign or liquidate........he has ALL the current USAirways Express airplanes lined up to be leased to other carriers if the TA is voted down. All the growth will then go to Freedumb....I am still voting NO!!!!!!

 

[dakotaHC8]

>>>You also said, "It seems the most common thing right now is to settle for pay cuts."<<<

Really? Besides the majors, the only regionals I know of that have had to "settle" for pay cuts are the three wholly owned airlines of US Airways ----> only because of your goofy contract at Mesa dragging us down. If it were not for the flood of cheap-o outfits wearing the same colors as our own airlines, and the threat of bankruptcy liquidation there would not have been any concessions.

Otherwise, name one other regional that has had to "settle". Truth is that you suckers believe the propaganda Johnny O throws out without question, it comes down to this, if you Mesa guys realy feel like you are not worthy of a real contract, then go ahead and show the world by voting yes.

Just remember that this will be what you have to deal with for the next 5-6 years. You might get that upgrade your lusting after, but then what buddy? Not too much to look forward to after that, is there?

And like I said, it will be a different world when the majors do start hiring again. You might find yourself at Mesa a lot longer than you realize. Better be careful what contract you stick yourself with...

Cheers

 

[Intruder One]

WE all keep talking about the vote.....does anyone know when that is going to take place?

 

[BoredToDeath]

Intruder,

It sounds to me like Mesa might be lucky if they get to vote. According to the Airways MEC update for Feb. 17, the Mesa MEC has givin approval for J4Js at Mesa without letting the pilot group vote on it.

Sounds like your MEC is cutting himself a deal and does'nt trust the pilot group. Watch out cause he'll probably ratify your contract for you too, just like they did to us.

 

[mckpickle]

If you guys vote know I will vote Yes to any assesment that ALPA wants other pilots to pay to help you guys out. JO is a motherless a$$-clown. He almost destroyed COEX when he was here.


HOLEY CRAP.............i just saw the payscales. What the heck is that all about. 18 months and less than a dollar raise? Some are less that 50 cents? The pay rates for the CRJ are less than at COEX now!!! Guys please. Dont do it.

 

[meanstreak]

Those pay rates suck. I will be embarrassed for you guys if that thing passes.

 

[c152]

WOW the cancer is going to grow. At those pay rates you will be able to let JO cut knees out from Other Regionlas who pave the way for a decent living. Do you guys not get it!!!! MESA is your going to be your career. Get a GOOD wage. The pay at ACA is per (2/9/02):

CRJ FO Capt
1st 21.53 55.47
2nd 34.19 57.19
3rd 35.26 58.96
4th 36.35 60.79
5th 37.47 62.67
6th 38.62 64.60
7th 39.82 66.60
8th 41.05 68.60


compare to MESA
DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS + 54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $51.17 $20.47 $52.19 $20.88 $53.24 $21.30 $54.30 $21.72
2 $52.76 $27.42 $53.82 $27.97 $54.89 $28.53 $55.99 $29.10
3 $54.35 $30.59 $55.44 $31.20 $56.55 $31.83 $57.68 $32.46
4 $55.99 $31.90 $57.11 $32.54 $58.25 $33.19 $59.42 $33.85
5 $57.64 $32.85 $58.79 $33.51 $59.97 $34.18 $61.17 $34.86
6 $59.32 $33.62 $60.51 $34.29 $61.72 $34.98 $62.95 $35.68
7 $60.94 $34.07 $62.16 $34.75 $63.40 $35.45 $64.67 $36.16
8 $62.90 $34.55 $64.16 $35.24 $65.44 $35.95 $66.75 $36.66
9 $64.83 $35.04 $66.13 $35.74 $67.45 $36.45 $68.80 $37.18
10 $66.82 $68.16 $69.52 $70.91
11 $68.75 $70.13 $71.53 $72.96
12 $70.85 $72.27 $73.71 $75.19
13 $72.95 $74.41 $75.90 $77.42
14 $75.21 $76.71 $78.25 $79.81
15 $76.26 $77.79 $79.34 $80.93

I am not sure whom is worse Mesa pilot group if they vote yes or Capt. Worthless if he signs it...

 

[Intruder One]

To Stayseated

You are correct about the CCAir deal,they turned down the first T/A and then passed the second one which was worse but it was approved by the MEC.Then believe it or not Worth would not sign it because it was crap.I wonder what he thinks the current MESA deal is?I've seen them both and this lastest deal is much worse.The CCAir boys are confused at least the ones I've talk to have said they would have been better off with their original deal.There must be something going on,I can't believe Worth would sign off on anything as bad as this.I can see not getting a premium deal at this time,maybe 5 or 10% or so below Comair but that thing is ridicuious. And work rules, we won't even go there.

 

[captjim]

dakotaHC8 said: "And like I said, it will be a different world when the majors do start hiring again. You might find yourself at Mesa a lot longer than you realize."

Lots of Mesa pilots at the majors, fella. What's up with the veiled threats?

I don't think that's a threat, just the truth.

If you guys sign off on this TA, you will be hurting the industry as much as Freedumb Air. Don't buy into the crap that JO is feeding you guys, VOTE NO FOR YOUR GOOD AND THE INDUSTRIES GOOD!

If you guys pass this you will have shot yourselves and everyone else in the foot. Don't sell yourselves short for God sakes.

 

[captjim]

Glad to hear there is a No vote coming from you Hud. I think JO is full of it. That offer is an insult to your professionalism. Our contract at COEX that's almost 5 years old is better than that offer. Here, 5th year 145 capt is $58.08 and that aint great. I think you guys could get another couple percent and a few more days off, along with better work rules. I hope this thing gets voted down!

You're welcome to any assesment for a strike, and I'll even come out and walk the picket line with you guys. Good luck, I know you can get better.

 

[big dog1]

Mesa Air Group provides critical feed to Us Airways and America West, both of which are teetering on financial ruin. We need to recognize the political reality ¡s the possibility that we simply wouldn¡¦t be allowed to strike during these uncertain economic times. Our MEC sent this **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** out They sure are trying to sell this TA when it should sell its self! VOTE NO

 

[AceCrackshot]

No one is "threatening your entry in the majors." DakotaHC8
is just saying that WO carriers industry wide are negotiating
flow, and that as a contract carrier, you have limited ability to
do so.

That being the case, it is in the Mesa pilots interest to build
a contract like Air Wis where if someone has to stay there for
a career, you can retire with decent quality of life.

This TA is first step in making Mesa a decent outfit. It my vote,
but it is the fight of all of us. Remember that when you vote.

 

[ACABlueridge]

Come on Mesa guys/gals we all know that this TA is nothing more than CRAP. And reasoning because it is better than the contract you currently are under is even a sadder statement.

I suggest you talk to your friends at other regionals and compare contracts to see what you are missing out on.

Examples..
10 days off for line holders, most regionals get 11.

8 days off for reserve guys, most get 11 that is 36 more days off a year.

1.15/hr. per diem, most get at least 1.50 and some get more.

I am not going to point out every inadequecy in your TA but you guys really have a lot of work to do. Sure JO can threaten all he wants, this generally scares the most Junior guys the old divide and conquer. But who does he think is going to do all of Mesas flying when you guys/gals CALL his bluff. And don't tell me Freedom, seems like they don't have the planes or pilots to pick up this slack. Also if he tried to do this I believe and hope ALPA would be a little more vocal on the whole Freedom issue.

With regard to all the rumore about United shifted its regional flying to Mesa to save money that should speak volumes to all of you. That should be a clue how underpaid you all are. I hope that your growth at the expense of higher paid pilots doesn't put a smile on your face. No, I don't want a whole RJ debate on this, leave that to another thread.

Looks like it is a race to the bottom after all.

Mesa VOTE NO!!!

 

[fam62c]

JO played his hand well

As much as I think JO is cheap and ruthless, you have to admit that he played this one pretty well. When he started Freedom he was banking on the fact that the MESA ALPA pilots would have major job security fears due to the weak economy. He rightly guessed that the containment of Freedom would become the number 1 issue in negotiations at the expense of almost everything else. This is the use of psychological warfare at it's best (or worst depending on how you look at it.) The money invested to start Freedom will pay incredible dividends if he can achieve a major labor cost advantage for the next 6.5 years (4.5 year contract plus 2 more years tying up the next negotiations with the NMB.) If this thing ratifies JO will be a hero to the other airline CEO's and they will use his tactics over and over on the rest of us. We will be destined to never advance economically.

Don't let this guy beat you. Ask yourselves this; if it was more cost effective for him to do all of things that he is threatening why wouldn't he just do it and avoid a deal with ALPA altogether? Why wouldn't he just transfer all the assets to Freedom and hire off the street, sell Air Midwest, dispose of planes at will, lay people off, sign a JFJ agreement with USAir and freedom, etc? You can't stop him from bleeding you to death if really wants to, and with no contracts on the property he could just repeat the same strategy if Freedom ever organized and tried to get a contract. There must be more than meets the eye here. There has to be a big element of bluff here or he would just steamroll over you right now and break the union altogether while he has a window of opportunity. My guess is that the cost and complexity to totally circumvent ALPA and redesign the wheel from scratch would be astronomical.

I feel for you guys and gals. I can't think of a worse time in the history of the airline industry to try to get a deal done. You are in a tough spot with a tough economy fighting a tough SOB and an uncertain future. Unfortunately you are even in the position where you need to fight other airline pilots who have invaded your corporation with the intent of stealing your jobs. There is risk involved with standing up to this guy but he is at risk as well if you can get to a release date with the NMB. It's unfortunate that a rejected TA will waste a lot of valuable time and set the negotiations way back. The NMB always punishes unions when TA's get rejected. It might have been better to hold out and not bring this thing to a vote but it's water under the bridge now. Your CEO is playing his hand for all it's worth, but don't go for the first thing thrown on the table. Wages notwithstanding, things like 1.15 per diem, no WX CX pay, 8 days off, and training contracts are adding insult to injury. Times are bad and if you need to bite the bullet on wages for the first year or so that's understandable, but at least get everything else and get the wages later in the deal. As it stands now you will really feel cheated a couple of years from now and there won't be anything you can do about it as you sit and watch JO get rich off your labor. Don't agree to unconditional surrender without a fight. Like it or not, you are on the front lines of an economic war between unionized pilots and regional airlines. If this agreement get's ratified we all get set back 5-10 years. JO is looking to undercut every other regional and build an empire. This TA is his chosen weapon of mass destruction against unionized labor. Vote No....stay strong and stay unified and you will prevail. God help any "Freedom" pilot who attempts to jumpseat on my plane!

 

[big dog1]

Anyone in the 1900 should look long and hard at the wording here.
This appears to be the company's way of saying "If we sell AMW, you
guys go with it. But don't worry, we'll guarantee you an interview
with the prospective buyer-hope everything works out for you in the
end. Best of luck. See ya." Our MEC has stated that none of the
junior pilots would be sold out. Yeah, right. This is nothing more
than a subversive way to make room on the "all jet" seniority list
for the suckers at San Juan who continually pump money into the
company coffers, and are willing to live on rice and beans. Nothing
more than a continual way for JO to draw FO's into the loop for a few
years, while protecting senior captains and furlouged mainline guys.
I'm in the jet, and senior enough not to worry. But I'm still going
to vote "no" on principle. Andy, Don, and anyone else
who "negotiated" on behalf of the pilot group, this is pathetic. I'd
advise all you 1900 drivers to ask alot of questions at the
roadshows. You could be pilots without a company before long. I
smell several lawsuits. Vote "no". Take the furlough if it
happens. When the NMB rules that Freedom is illegitimate, you'll be
back to work in no time, and hopefully some of the clowns who
orchestrated this mess will be the ones out on the street.