MESA TA Question

[BoredToDeath]

Spaceman said, "You say you have scope protection and yet your flying is being bid out to contract carriers. Do you even hear what you are saying? Are you able to connect the dots yet? Get with reality...Go and be shortsighted no more.

Spaceman,

Come back down to earth, your minds to small to wonder out on its own. Do you even know what scope is. I guarntee you that your scope language is exactlly the same as what most of us have. And yet we've had it for years. Who do you think your gonna scope out. Us or perhaps Mainline. I don't think so. All your language says is that Mesa will not create another alter-ego, ie: Freedom. Well guess what? PSA airlines cannot do that either. And because of other language US Airways Group cannot create an alto-ego. ie: another WO. They can create a division of Mainline which is what they are gonna do instead of MDA.

I see what your saying about Express flying being contracted out and there is no way for us to stop that. Just like Mesa could lose all Airways flying tomorrow and no amount of scope you have would be able to stop it. In order for the WOs to have that kind of power we would first have to be considered for bargining reasons a single carrier with a single sen. list. Well with over 1700 pilots on the street from Mainline. Who the heck would want a single sen. list. They had their chance years ago and said no. Its to late now and they have to wait untill times are good to look for flowthroughs and such.

US Airways Group Flying is being sub-contracted to sub-service companies such as yours because the Mainline pilots control REAL SCOPE. They say how much can be contracted out and thats their shortsightedness not ours.

In closing I'll give you some dots to connect. JO is much smarter than your pilot group. To be in his position he would have to be. So I would try to find out what he really wants if you want to win. I'll bet everything I own that he could give a rats a$$ if you sign or not. One way or the other he will find a way around whatever he just gave you.

And I highly doubt the WOs will go anywhere. We may be losing aircraft shortly, but more will be on the way. The WOs unlike the contract carriers, put Millions of dollars a year into Groups pockets with better than avg. performance. Dave knows he would be a retard to get rid of us.

 

[embdrvr]

The word is that they want us to take a pay cut in the form of flying a 70 seat RJ for 50 seat pay, or a 90 seat RJ for who knows what pay.

Does Sky West currrently operate a 70 or 90 seat aircraft?
Is it a pay cut if you fly a bigger airplane, hopefully short term, for the same amount of money as a slightly smaller one?
To me a pay cut means a reduction in pay.
Or have I misunderstood you and what you're really saying is that you will receive less money than you currently do to fly a 50 seater but your pay gets bumped back to current rates when you fly a 70 seater?
I'm confused.

 

[Mayday911]

JO will have 4.5 years to refill his bag of dirty tricks. He did it once, he can do it again.

Nothing is iron clad while lawyers exist!!

Mayday.

 

[Intruder One]

TO SPACEMANSPIF:
It will proabably be quite some time before Mesa Air Group no longer needs Mesa. According to other post they only have 7 or 8 aircraft.This would seem the perfect time to force the issue,and it doesen't look like JO is going to do anything voluntarily .Look how long it took Comair to get what they wanted but they finally brought management to its knees, and they had the backing of Delta.JO alone could not surrive with only a Freedumb to pick up the slack.

TO Wile E:
The problem with CCAir the had no leverage,they were in efect to small to have any bargaining power.On the other hand he could not fire or shut down Mesa as he did CCAir or his company would be over.If this man is not forced into a decent deal I don't think at this point he is going to give you one.

 

[Jeepman]

Currently SkyWest only has 50 seat a/c. My guess is that we will probably get 90 seat a/c. I heard all this from SAPA. I don't consider it a pay cut myself, but I am reluctant to do it because some of our own people are labeling it as scab work, which I don't agree with. The same people are probably the ones that will vote in a union (UPA) for us and really throw things in the toilet. One of the first things that the UPA wants to do is get medical benefits after we rertire. As much as I would love that, NOW IS NOTE THE TIME!! for that or a union.

 

[CHQdude]

Some real good points being tossed around. I agree that you cannot compare the fate of CCair with that of Mesa's should you choose to vote this down....and you definitely should. You guys are over TEN times the size CCair was. Thats a huge difference, and there is no better time than now to stand up for what you deserve. Most importantly this TA is waaaaay too long at 4.5 years. You may get a bunch of jets and upgrade fast, but you will be screwing the people at the bottom of YOUR list when hiring slows down..... not just other companies trying to get a decent contract (CHQ). 8 days off on reserve! 1.15 per diem!! thats crazy . Why not submit this piece of $hit TA to the press, its a total insult to the piloting profession. If you are under the impression that by voting this in now, you will have something to stand on in 4.5 years think again. Management is more clever than you think and JO WILL have more dirty tricks, thats something you can count on. Seems as though your MEC sold you out on this one....I hear they are 'recommending' this TA too. Someone is getting a little something on the side. You guys have the ability just like the comair folks did to do some good here. Good luck.

 

[embdrvr]

One of the first things that the UPA wants to do is get medical benefits after we rertire. As much as I would love that, NOW IS NOTE THE TIME!! for that or a union.

I'd love to see any union get your management to commit to a totally unknown and unprojectable expense. It's lofty and unreachable goal IMHO. I think you'd have a better shot at a pension. Do you think that the union will get voted in? I'd be surprised that anyone would take them seriously if they're talking about nonsensical ideas like guaranteed health benefits after retirement in this revenue environment. I'd be more concerned about just having a job that long.
Best of luck either way.

 

[DASHDRIVER]

I am in a WO and do not envy MESA's decision at all. I know that I would be able to vote no. But, that is easy for me to say on the outside. I know that this is not the best time to hold every one together in a strong stand for the industry. Yet, the line has to be drawn somwhere. If it doesn't happen now with the lowest bar, next time our negotiations (PDT) come around we will be trapped by the same problems. "Well, thats fine you want livable wages, work rules and benifits, MESA over there will do it for half..." I hope you see where we are coming from.

I wish the best for MESA's contract, if you win, we all win.

 

[WileE]

The thing about this contract.

It is better than what we are flying now. Not much better granted, but there are some minor improvements and nothing has gotten any worse. That this TA is so crappy says more about how crappy the former contract that the union negotiated more than anything else. Are we happy that this is going to be 4 and a half years? No, not at all. Would three be better, sure, but that's what we are given. Are we pissed off at the union for not doing better? Hell yes. Is anyone suprised? Hell no. We're still second class citizens as far as ALPA is concerned and we'll always get the short stick. Is there anything we can do about it and still have a job? Probably not, that's the problem with working in a closed shop industry.

Bored, as far as our scope goes, this is supposedly the most ironclad and far reaching scope at any airline anywhere. This scope was written by the union and presented to the company. It's the union's dream scope and JO took it withou modifications in exchange for this contract, that's why it was a mistake for him to take it as written and is why the union is so committed to passing the TA. The scope in the TA is not a negotiated clause at all, it is straight from the union lawyers.

The important thing for those people who will actually vote is to go to the road shows and ask questions. If they still don't like the answers, they can vote an informed no, not purely an emotional one. And if 51% vote no, then don't be suprised if anyone not willing to fly for Freedom is on the street in six months instead of flying as a jet captain.

 

[B1900DFO]

WileE "we're still second class citizens as far as Alpa is concerned and will always get the short end of the stick."

I think you are way off base. Didn't Alpa just allocate several million dollars in strike funds for Mesa? Isn't there quite a bit of coverage on the negative ramifications of working for Freedom on the Alpa webpage. Just a couple years ago Comair revolutionized the regional industry through a tough, tight knit pilot group being led by a rock solid MEC. I don't think Mesa has either of those and the shortcomings of this TA should be attributed to your MEC rather than Alpa national. They can give you the tools to go out and fight for a contract that pays you what you are worth but you gus have to do the work. Who voted in your MEC and who do they really represent? I sure wouldn't want to count on things improving in 4.5 years because by then JO would have found something horrible to do and will once again agree to get rid of problem XYZ in exchange for you accepting dog sh#t wages and work rules for another 5 years. That's just my .02 cents.

 

[big dog1]

It said this Crap Ta will most likely pass. As for the road show we havent even been given a copy of the full TA!!! This is a bunch os BS piss poor on our Mec they are a bunch of pusses!!!!

 

[WileE]

B1900FO

A couple million for over a thousand pilots isn't going to go very far now is it? ALPA national was all over this negotiation process, not just local Mesa reps. Their primary goal was to get rid of Freedom, not to work out the best for Mesa itself. You say we are supposed to do the work, but National and our MEC is telling us it's this contract or nothing. Yet the union will not even show us anything more than the rough outline of the agreement to review. Basic pilots obviously can't be trusted with such information.

So we either believe our union when they say they did the best for us, or we don't. Either they are telling us the truth, or they are lying to the pilot group right to our faces. And this isn't just our MEC, this is coming straight from national which reviewed and approved the TA. It can't be both things. You either believe the union and vote yes on the contract or believe that our own reps are lying through their teeth and vote no. That's the real decision here.

So, the union says that this is the best we can do in todays environment, it will mean job security, growth and a much better negotiation position down the road. They say the alternative is the liquidation of Mesa in favor of Freedom and termination of all the Mesa pilots. Not more negotiations. Not a possible strike. They say it means kiss your job goodbye. In light of that I say vote yes. Live to fight another day.

 

[Intruder One]

They said vote for this or else at at CCAir also,the pilots said or else so he shut them down.Whats he going to do at Mesa shut it down and go home,I don't think so.Jo does have a board of directors and others(code share partners) that he has to answer to.This canot possibly look good for him.Let's say he does try to build up Freedumb to shut you down,how long is that going to take?He can't turn them into a 1200 or so pilot airline overnight,even if he got CCAir on board(which he couldn't) it still would not be enough.Now is the time to strike before he has the time to bring in renforcements.You will never have him more over a barrel than you do now.Once he has time to build up Freedumb its game over.

 

[StaySeated]

CCair

I may be wrong but I think that the CCair pilot's actually voted yes but DW would not sign the concessionary agreement because it was so bad. Again, I may have my facts backwards but we are in negotiations as well and this situation was discussed at length.

In my opinion, it would be a huge mistake for Mesa pilots to be scared by the CCair events. Two very different situations. JO is using the whole situation as a scare tactic and I can just see his slimy @ss giggling under his rock right now thinking his gloom and doom will force you into what sounds like a horrible deal.

One last comment, ALL SCOPE LANGUAGE has proven to be worthless. DAL, UAL, TWA, EAL, worthless worthless worthless. Please do not sign a contract because it has "great Scope language". There is no such thing. I repeat, ALL SCOPE LANGUAGE is worthless. There is always a way around the language.

 

[big dog1]

I do not understand how JO had so much power over us! HP new contract said they could'nt do use Freedom. U said to do J4J it had to be a union airline. So why night fight for a better contract?>

 

[WileE]

He doesn't need 1200 pilots.

Freedom would start with less than half that. Don't forget that more than half of Mesa's list is made up of 1900 guys. He already has a buyer for Air Midwest so that's half his seats gone. He had at least 120 pilots already signed up for Freedom ground school that were put on hold when the TA was signed. As everyone is very quick to mention, there are plenty of pilots out there willing to fly for anyone as long as they fly. He is already halfway there and it would be only a couple months before he'd have the jet side back to current levels under Freedom. He'd gladly take that hit to spite the union, he has that kind of ego.

Also, if this TA isn't signed into contract, JO's J4J is gone anyway. Us not signing is a deal breaker as much as him switching all the flying to Freedom, so if we don't sign, there is no incentive for the USAir flying and he can shop around as he wants for codeshares who will be willing to deal with Freedom (word is that United is one of them, the management aren't pushing for a union carrier and it would be up to the bancrupcy court if it would be allowed). As far as America West's pilots go, their scope clause banning Freedom was in a TA that has already been rejected by their pilots from what I understand. Who knows whether or not that language will still be in the contract in the next version. Plus that will still be months and months down the road before they have to worry about it. AmWest management is obviously more than willing to deal with Freedom and has made it clear they want more rj's as soon as possible.

As far as JO's board goes, he doesn't have to worry about them because he's the one that put them all there. That's how he got the position of CEO, all of them are toady's to him. The last thing he has to worry about is any kind of accountability.

 

[dakotaHC8]

Ahhhh, you know, spaceman is right guys.

The Mesa pilots have once again stood firm and shown what they stand for, you have to respect that.

Of course what they stand for is simply "ME ME ME ME, GIMMIE UPGRADE, GIMMIE JET TIME, MEMEMEMEME!!!!!!!". well at least somethings remain constant in this shifting industry.

Well. Im looking at the future boys and girls. Mesa pilots will pay to get some more jets and one list (again). While we at the wholly owned will have to make due with our own jets and a flow thru up into US Airways.

Ohhhhh, you didnt get a flow thru with your new agreement at Mesa, oooops. Geeze, it's about the only thing that makes JFJ palatable for us. What are you guys thinking?

You know, things are really changing, many of the old school methods of getting on with a major carrier will no longer be around in the future. Doubt me? You shouldnt... US Airways and their wholly owneds have shown the way. Look at what is going on at American with their one list proposal, Delta and ASA with the preferential hiring. It is clear that this is just starting and the direction things are heading is for a closer association between the various pilot groups inside the same organization.

Make no mistake, ALPA will follow the lead of what the major airline MEC's desire, and may have to push for such a thing to resolve thorny representation and job protection issues. It is apparent that only through cooperation and senority intergration gained by established flow thru will the current mess be resolved. It's too bad that such changes will leave pilots at places like Mesa on their own, but oh well.

So enjoy your new Mesa contract, because you will be working under it for a long time. Still feel cocky...?

 

[big dog1]

This is why we should vote NO!!!!!!!!!!!

Pilots will receive hourly flight pay based on their status (position/equipment) and length of service with the Company as follows: AND NO QOL

1. 0 - 19 Seat Turboprop Aircraft

DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS + 54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $28.72 $18.15 $29.29 $18.51 $29.88 $18.88 $30.48 $19.26
2 $30.07 $20.39 $30.67 $20.80 $31.28 $21.22 $31.91 $21.64
3 $31.64 $21.98 $32.27 $22.42 $32.92 $22.87 $33.58 $23.33
4 $33.29 $23.63 $33.96 $24.10 $34.64 $24.58 $35.33 $25.07
5 $34.83 $24.33 $35.53 $24.81 $36.24 $25.30 $36.96 $25.80
6 $36.27 $36.99 $37.73 $38.49
7 $37.35 $38.10 $38.86 $39.64
8 $38.46 $39.23 $40.01 $40.81


2. 20 - 74 Seat Turboprop Aircraft

DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS + 54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $37.64 $18.15 $38.39 $18.51 $39.16 $18.88 $39.94 $19.26
2 $39.10 $20.39 $39.88 $20.80 $40.68 $21.22 $41.49 $21.64
3 $40.52 $21.98 $41.33 $22.42 $42.16 $22.87 $43.00 $23.33
4 $42.19 $23.63 $43.03 $24.10 $43.89 $24.58 $44.77 $25.07
5 $43.70 $24.33 $44.57 $24.81 $45.46 $25.30 $46.37 $25.80
6 $45.23 $46.13 $47.05 $47.99
7 $46.48 $47.41 $48.36 $49.33
8 $47.78 $48.74 $49.71 $50.70
9 $49.07 $50.05 $51.05 $52.07
10 $50.34 $51.35 $52.38 $53.43
11 $51.72 $52.75 $53.81 $54.89
12 $52.84 $53.90 $54.98 $56.08
13 $53.66 $54.73 $55.82 $56.94
14 $54.49 $55.58 $56.69 $57.83

3. 50 to 59 Seat Jet Aircraft

DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS + 54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $51.17 $20.47 $52.19 $20.88 $53.24 $21.30 $54.30 $21.72
2 $52.76 $27.42 $53.82 $27.97 $54.89 $28.53 $55.99 $29.10
3 $54.35 $30.59 $55.44 $31.20 $56.55 $31.83 $57.68 $32.46
4 $55.99 $31.90 $57.11 $32.54 $58.25 $33.19 $59.42 $33.85
5 $57.64 $32.85 $58.79 $33.51 $59.97 $34.18 $61.17 $34.86
6 $59.32 $33.62 $60.51 $34.29 $61.72 $34.98 $62.95 $35.68
7 $60.94 $34.07 $62.16 $34.75 $63.40 $35.45 $64.67 $36.16
8 $62.90 $34.55 $64.16 $35.24 $65.44 $35.95 $66.75 $36.66
9 $64.83 $35.04 $66.13 $35.74 $67.45 $36.45 $68.80 $37.18
10 $66.82 $68.16 $69.52 $70.91
11 $68.75 $70.13 $71.53 $72.96
12 $70.85 $72.27 $73.71 $75.19
13 $72.95 $74.41 $75.90 $77.42
14 $75.21 $76.71 $78.25 $79.81
15 $76.26 $77.79 $79.34 $80.93

4. 60 – 76 Seat Jet Aircraft

Effective DOS:
DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS +
54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $53.86 $20.47 $54.94 $20.88 $56.04 $21.30 $57.16 $21.72
2 $55.50 $27.42 $56.61 $27.97 $57.74 $28.53 $58.89 $29.10
3 $57.17 $30.59 $58.31 $31.20 $59.48 $31.83 $60.67 $32.46
4 $58.91 $31.90 $60.09 $32.54 $61.29 $33.19 $62.52 $33.85
5 $60.68 $32.85 $61.89 $33.51 $63.13 $34.18 $64.39 $34.86
6 $62.50 $33.62 $63.75 $34.29 $65.03 $34.98 $66.33 $35.68
7 $64.37 $34.07 $65.65 $34.75 $66.97 $35.45 $68.30 $36.16
8 $66.30 $34.55 $67.62 $35.24 $68.97 $35.95 $70.35 $36.66
9 $68.29 $35.04 $69.65 $35.74 $71.04 $36.45 $72.46 $37.18
10 $70.34 $71.74 $73.18 $74.64
11 $72.45 $73.89 $75.37 $76.88
12 $74.63 $76.12 $77.64 $79.19
13 $76.86 $78.39 $79.96 $81.56
14 $79.17 $80.75 $82.36 $84.01
15 $81.55 $83.18 $84.84 $86.54
16 $82.85 $84.50 $86.19 $87.92
17 $84.18 $85.86 $87.58 $89.33
18 $85.52 $87.23 $88.97 $90.75
19 $86.89 $88.62 $90.40 $92.20
20 $88.36 $90.12 $91.92 $93.76


5. > 76 Seats < = 86k lbs Jet Aircraft

Effective DOS:
DOS + 18 mo DOS + 36 mo DOS +
54 mo
YEAR CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO CAPT FO
1 $57.90 $20.47 $59.06 $20.88 $60.24 $21.30 $61.44 $21.72
2 $59.67 $27.42 $60.86 $27.97 $62.08 $28.53 $63.32 $29.10
3 $61.48 $30.59 $62.71 $31.20 $63.96 $31.83 $65.24 $32.46
4 $63.33 $31.90 $64.60 $32.54 $65.89 $33.19 $67.21 $33.85
5 $65.25 $32.85 $66.56 $33.51 $67.89 $34.18 $69.25 $34.86
6 $67.19 $33.62 $68.53 $34.29 $69.90 $34.98 $71.30 $35.68
7 $68.85 $34.07 $70.23 $34.75 $71.63 $35.45 $73.06 $36.16
8 $70.95 $34.55 $72.37 $35.24 $73.82 $35.95 $75.30 $36.66
9 $73.13 $35.04 $74.59 $35.74 $76.08 $36.45 $77.60 $37.18
10 $75.33 $76.84 $78.38 $79.95
11 $77.58 $79.13 $80.71 $82.32
12 $79.93 $81.53 $83.16 $84.82
13 $82.33 $83.98 $85.66 $87.37
14 $84.82 $86.52 $88.25 $90.02
15 $86.94 $88.68 $90.45 $92.26
16 $89.11 $90.89 $92.71 $94.56
17 $91.34 $93.17 $95.03 $96.93
18 $93.62 $95.49 $97.40 $99.35
19 $95.96 $97.88 $99.84 $101.84
20 $98.36 $100.33 $102.34 $104.39

 

[WileE]

Dakota.

I might be missing something, but which of the wholly owneds have already signed on with J4Js? I've heard a lot of talk about which ones might be signing on in the future, but I was unaware that anybody has actually signed a contract for it besides Mesa, which signed it back in October. Again, if your WO has put a j4j agreement in writing, please enlighten me with some details (seriously, if it has happened I'd be interested in hearing about it).

As far as flow up into mainline US Air goes, if this is in fact part of your j4j agreement, so what? Talk is that if everything goes according to plan mainline might begin recalling their furloughees back in what, 5 to 7 years? So we should sign an agreement that would maybe get flow up for some started ten years or more down the road? I'm sorry, but I have yet to meet anyone working for Mesa who even wants to work for USAir. So why should we push for flow up into a company that may, possibly hire us into the right seat of a jet 10-15 years down the road when there will probably be a lot of hiring on other majors 5 years down the road?

As far as the pay scale goes, are there any airlines whose employees are in contract negotiations right now that look like they will be getting pay raises? It seems the most common thing right now is to settle for pay cuts. At least Mesa hasn't taken any concessions. That's the problem with most people, they would sell their soul for a slight pay raise tomorrow instead of being in a position to really set the standard for pay and benefits at a regional airline down the road. You can't bargain for industry leading contracts from a position of total weakness. Leave that for later when we hold all the cards. Miracles don't occur over night, give it time.

 

[CHQdude]

Wile,

I think you are looking too much at the big picture of the industry instead of focusing on your company. You're not flying for Usair, American, United, or any other airline that is loosing money right now. You are flying for the one part of the industry that IS making money. Trust me we at CHQ have been showered with articles about the terrible industry in every company memo. Lucky for us BB had to present the numbers earlier when he wanted to go public with us. Guess what? We're making a bunch of money. Guess what again? If we get a decent contract the company will STILL make a bunch of money, and I'm sure yours will too. Ever ask yourself how Air whiskey/comair can be profitable w/ their contract but somehow you can't??? I know I do! Just my humble opinion. Good luck.