MESA TA Question

[SpacemanSpiff]

oh brother...

BoredToDeath,
"The real bottom line is that contract carrier companys such as yours have no business flying in U colors."

We have all the right and the business in the world to do flying for U or anyone else. This is capitalism, right? Or has the AFL-CIO convinced you that we live in a workers paradise? Is is fair to the U and WO employees or even a smart business practice? Probably not. I don't think fine companies like Southwest, JetBlue, or Skywest would ever do this to their employees. You said it yourself though, the Mainline pilots were shortsighted. You say you have scope protection and yet your flying is being bid out to contract carriers. Do you even hear what you are saying? Are you able to connect the dots yet? Get with reality...Go and be shortsighted no more.

If you could go back in time and give up some or most of the precious pieces of your contract for REAL scope and a single seniority list, would you do it? Knowing that in 4.5 years you start negotiating again from a stronger position because your CEO doesn't have the ability to make the end run again? Also hoping that the economy and airline industry have turned around?

Intruder One,
You don't just declare a strike and just talking about a strike doesn't do a hell of a lot of good. There is a process and at the rate we are going...or at some point Mesa Air Group will not need Mesa Airlines. Mesa Airlines would go the way of WestAir and CCAir and Freedumb would grow.

Jeepman,
My apologies...I mistook you for one of the U WO guys that blame us for all of lifes ills.
I wish we worked for a management team like the one at Skywest, but we don't. Our CEO cares NOTHING for the emloyees. No matter what his lips say, his actions speak far louder than his words. It is ALL about him and his massive ego.

What would your pilot group do if they were in our alter-ego shoes. While you ponder that, keep in mind that you have already seen two of your sister companies disappear with little or no trace. Would you choke down a sorry contract that offered you job security and gowth in hopes that you can ride out a weak economy and put yourself in stronger bargaining position for the future? Skywest would never do that to their employees? That is wonderful. I hope you are correct.

And Jeepman, I NEVER called myself a whore. I know fairly well what I am, and I sleep just fine at night, thank you.

Mayday911,
The TA is for 4.5 years.

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

RE: Mesa's alleged interest in the WOs

I could easily be wrong, but I think the WOs are small potatoes compared to what JO really wants to go after.

 

[Jeepman]

Spaceman,

That's good the TA is only 4.5 years, thats about when the industry will (hopefully) turn around. Yes, we do have great management, The top 3 in the company took a 20% cut in pay to help us be more competetive. The word is that they want us to take a pay cut in the form of flying a 70 seat RJ for 50 seat pay, or a 90 seat RJ for who knows what pay. I don't like the idea of that, but it makes it easier to do knowing the CEO took a 20% cut before we did. Alot of guys are calling it scab flying, but I would rather do that than take a cut in pay.

In a way I wish we would buy you guys out so that I wouldn't have to hear how J.O. shafts you guys every time & you could see what it's like to work for great management & not deal with so much B.S. Lord knows there's enough B.S. in this world to fuel the worlds energy needs from here to eternity.

Take care.

 

[big dog1]

Freedom has 7or 8 planes ,if we strike now eveyone on at Freedom will be scabs, they will have to fly struck work.With that being said there will be no J4J which means no growth for freedom this whole mess needs to be stopped here!!! 4.5 years it will be something else no QOL or No pay raises.
Limited growth MESA'S HAS FIRM ORDERS ONLY THE FREEDOM PLANES- 40 A/C. THE REST IS ALL SPECULATIONS.

IF YOU EXPECT BASED ON SPECULATIONS GOOD LUCK.

WE HAVE ENOUGH CAPTAINS AS OF NOW FOR 72 PLANES,TO INCLUDE FREEDOM, THE REST ARE J4JS..............50% OURS.



VOTE NO NO NO !!!!!!!!!

 

[WileE]

Strike?

You can't strike if you are fired first. Ask CCAir guys about that. They thought they had that kind of leverage, and look at the position they are in today.

In 4.5 years if this contract is signed it means no furlough threats (he can't do that under the scope clause without pilot approval), no freedom (Mesa Air Group will be unable to play that card ever again), and no whipsawing one pilot group against another to accept a cheaper contract (ala CCAir). If you think that by turning down this contract we'll somehow get something better, you are dreaming.

Do I want to be working for Mesa in 2007? Hell no, just like everyone at the regionals I'm looking towards better things. But if the recovery doesn't happen as fast as it might, I could very well still be here. IN that case I'd much rather have more cards in my deck than JO has in his. Rob him of half his bag of dirty tricks and see how negotiations go then.

Fight the war and win in the long run, don't commit a inglorious suicide and lose it all for everyone.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Spaceman said, "You say you have scope protection and yet your flying is being bid out to contract carriers. Do you even hear what you are saying? Are you able to connect the dots yet? Get with reality...Go and be shortsighted no more.

Spaceman,

Come back down to earth, your minds to small to wonder out on its own. Do you even know what scope is. I guarntee you that your scope language is exactlly the same as what most of us have. And yet we've had it for years. Who do you think your gonna scope out. Us or perhaps Mainline. I don't think so. All your language says is that Mesa will not create another alter-ego, ie: Freedom. Well guess what? PSA airlines cannot do that either. And because of other language US Airways Group cannot create an alto-ego. ie: another WO. They can create a division of Mainline which is what they are gonna do instead of MDA.

I see what your saying about Express flying being contracted out and there is no way for us to stop that. Just like Mesa could lose all Airways flying tomorrow and no amount of scope you have would be able to stop it. In order for the WOs to have that kind of power we would first have to be considered for bargining reasons a single carrier with a single sen. list. Well with over 1700 pilots on the street from Mainline. Who the heck would want a single sen. list. They had their chance years ago and said no. Its to late now and they have to wait untill times are good to look for flowthroughs and such.

US Airways Group Flying is being sub-contracted to sub-service companies such as yours because the Mainline pilots control REAL SCOPE. They say how much can be contracted out and thats their shortsightedness not ours.

In closing I'll give you some dots to connect. JO is much smarter than your pilot group. To be in his position he would have to be. So I would try to find out what he really wants if you want to win. I'll bet everything I own that he could give a rats a$$ if you sign or not. One way or the other he will find a way around whatever he just gave you.

And I highly doubt the WOs will go anywhere. We may be losing aircraft shortly, but more will be on the way. The WOs unlike the contract carriers, put Millions of dollars a year into Groups pockets with better than avg. performance. Dave knows he would be a retard to get rid of us.

 

[embdrvr]

The word is that they want us to take a pay cut in the form of flying a 70 seat RJ for 50 seat pay, or a 90 seat RJ for who knows what pay.

Does Sky West currrently operate a 70 or 90 seat aircraft?
Is it a pay cut if you fly a bigger airplane, hopefully short term, for the same amount of money as a slightly smaller one?
To me a pay cut means a reduction in pay.
Or have I misunderstood you and what you're really saying is that you will receive less money than you currently do to fly a 50 seater but your pay gets bumped back to current rates when you fly a 70 seater?
I'm confused.

 

[Mayday911]

JO will have 4.5 years to refill his bag of dirty tricks. He did it once, he can do it again.

Nothing is iron clad while lawyers exist!!

Mayday.

 

[Intruder One]

TO SPACEMANSPIF:
It will proabably be quite some time before Mesa Air Group no longer needs Mesa. According to other post they only have 7 or 8 aircraft.This would seem the perfect time to force the issue,and it doesen't look like JO is going to do anything voluntarily .Look how long it took Comair to get what they wanted but they finally brought management to its knees, and they had the backing of Delta.JO alone could not surrive with only a Freedumb to pick up the slack.

TO Wile E:
The problem with CCAir the had no leverage,they were in efect to small to have any bargaining power.On the other hand he could not fire or shut down Mesa as he did CCAir or his company would be over.If this man is not forced into a decent deal I don't think at this point he is going to give you one.

 

[Jeepman]

Currently SkyWest only has 50 seat a/c. My guess is that we will probably get 90 seat a/c. I heard all this from SAPA. I don't consider it a pay cut myself, but I am reluctant to do it because some of our own people are labeling it as scab work, which I don't agree with. The same people are probably the ones that will vote in a union (UPA) for us and really throw things in the toilet. One of the first things that the UPA wants to do is get medical benefits after we rertire. As much as I would love that, NOW IS NOTE THE TIME!! for that or a union.

 

[CHQdude]

Some real good points being tossed around. I agree that you cannot compare the fate of CCair with that of Mesa's should you choose to vote this down....and you definitely should. You guys are over TEN times the size CCair was. Thats a huge difference, and there is no better time than now to stand up for what you deserve. Most importantly this TA is waaaaay too long at 4.5 years. You may get a bunch of jets and upgrade fast, but you will be screwing the people at the bottom of YOUR list when hiring slows down..... not just other companies trying to get a decent contract (CHQ). 8 days off on reserve! 1.15 per diem!! thats crazy . Why not submit this piece of $hit TA to the press, its a total insult to the piloting profession. If you are under the impression that by voting this in now, you will have something to stand on in 4.5 years think again. Management is more clever than you think and JO WILL have more dirty tricks, thats something you can count on. Seems as though your MEC sold you out on this one....I hear they are 'recommending' this TA too. Someone is getting a little something on the side. You guys have the ability just like the comair folks did to do some good here. Good luck.

 

[embdrvr]

One of the first things that the UPA wants to do is get medical benefits after we rertire. As much as I would love that, NOW IS NOTE THE TIME!! for that or a union.

I'd love to see any union get your management to commit to a totally unknown and unprojectable expense. It's lofty and unreachable goal IMHO. I think you'd have a better shot at a pension. Do you think that the union will get voted in? I'd be surprised that anyone would take them seriously if they're talking about nonsensical ideas like guaranteed health benefits after retirement in this revenue environment. I'd be more concerned about just having a job that long.
Best of luck either way.

 

[DASHDRIVER]

I am in a WO and do not envy MESA's decision at all. I know that I would be able to vote no. But, that is easy for me to say on the outside. I know that this is not the best time to hold every one together in a strong stand for the industry. Yet, the line has to be drawn somwhere. If it doesn't happen now with the lowest bar, next time our negotiations (PDT) come around we will be trapped by the same problems. "Well, thats fine you want livable wages, work rules and benifits, MESA over there will do it for half..." I hope you see where we are coming from.

I wish the best for MESA's contract, if you win, we all win.

 

[WileE]

The thing about this contract.

It is better than what we are flying now. Not much better granted, but there are some minor improvements and nothing has gotten any worse. That this TA is so crappy says more about how crappy the former contract that the union negotiated more than anything else. Are we happy that this is going to be 4 and a half years? No, not at all. Would three be better, sure, but that's what we are given. Are we pissed off at the union for not doing better? Hell yes. Is anyone suprised? Hell no. We're still second class citizens as far as ALPA is concerned and we'll always get the short stick. Is there anything we can do about it and still have a job? Probably not, that's the problem with working in a closed shop industry.

Bored, as far as our scope goes, this is supposedly the most ironclad and far reaching scope at any airline anywhere. This scope was written by the union and presented to the company. It's the union's dream scope and JO took it withou modifications in exchange for this contract, that's why it was a mistake for him to take it as written and is why the union is so committed to passing the TA. The scope in the TA is not a negotiated clause at all, it is straight from the union lawyers.

The important thing for those people who will actually vote is to go to the road shows and ask questions. If they still don't like the answers, they can vote an informed no, not purely an emotional one. And if 51% vote no, then don't be suprised if anyone not willing to fly for Freedom is on the street in six months instead of flying as a jet captain.

 

[B1900DFO]

WileE "we're still second class citizens as far as Alpa is concerned and will always get the short end of the stick."

I think you are way off base. Didn't Alpa just allocate several million dollars in strike funds for Mesa? Isn't there quite a bit of coverage on the negative ramifications of working for Freedom on the Alpa webpage. Just a couple years ago Comair revolutionized the regional industry through a tough, tight knit pilot group being led by a rock solid MEC. I don't think Mesa has either of those and the shortcomings of this TA should be attributed to your MEC rather than Alpa national. They can give you the tools to go out and fight for a contract that pays you what you are worth but you gus have to do the work. Who voted in your MEC and who do they really represent? I sure wouldn't want to count on things improving in 4.5 years because by then JO would have found something horrible to do and will once again agree to get rid of problem XYZ in exchange for you accepting dog sh#t wages and work rules for another 5 years. That's just my .02 cents.