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Mesa and Freedom Air Pilots
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CWASaab
Well... Not anymore
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2002
- Posts
- 122
185 you really are quite incorrect.
What happened at Mesa with Freedom has had a tremendous impact in the negotiations at other carriers.
To be more specific, the company I work for, Mesaba Airlines, a wholly owned subsidiary of Mesaba Holdings (I think it is now going to be called MAIR Holdings) is 3 years into section 6 negotiations. Little progress is currently being made, despite having been under mediated negotiations for about a year now.
That is not Mesa's fault exactly, but our managment has said to the pilot group repeatedly during recurrent ground schools that our new contract must be competitive with Mesa. That would be a step backwards for us.
Our over-paid and under-educated Senior Leadership Team even went so far as to go out and purchase a non-ALPA airline. This appears obvious to us who work here as a threat that we are replaceable if we get too expensive, much like Freedom was to Mesa.
In the mean time this airline that our SLT claims is well run and a great opportunity has been bleeding our financial performance, to the tune of about 2 million a month. Their RASM is $.193 thanks to the EAS program, while their CASM is $.262. Yeah, thats one hell of a greatly run company, and such an opportunity.
Our Negotiators have faced this tactic by informing the Company, at the table, that without scope that eliminates the threat of an alter-ego, there is not going to be a ratification. I stand behind the Negotiating Team and the MEC 100% on this issue as do just about all of us here.
I know we are not the only pilot group hearing the "we must compete with Mesa" mantra from the executive offices, and we are not the only group facing an alter-ego. What happened at Mesa with Freedom has become the blueprint for all recent talks. Non-ALPA alter-ego threats have become the latest tactic to keep those flying small jets and turbo-props from acheiving livable wages.
What happened at Mesa with Freedom has had a tremendous impact in the negotiations at other carriers.
To be more specific, the company I work for, Mesaba Airlines, a wholly owned subsidiary of Mesaba Holdings (I think it is now going to be called MAIR Holdings) is 3 years into section 6 negotiations. Little progress is currently being made, despite having been under mediated negotiations for about a year now.
That is not Mesa's fault exactly, but our managment has said to the pilot group repeatedly during recurrent ground schools that our new contract must be competitive with Mesa. That would be a step backwards for us.
Our over-paid and under-educated Senior Leadership Team even went so far as to go out and purchase a non-ALPA airline. This appears obvious to us who work here as a threat that we are replaceable if we get too expensive, much like Freedom was to Mesa.
In the mean time this airline that our SLT claims is well run and a great opportunity has been bleeding our financial performance, to the tune of about 2 million a month. Their RASM is $.193 thanks to the EAS program, while their CASM is $.262. Yeah, thats one hell of a greatly run company, and such an opportunity.
Our Negotiators have faced this tactic by informing the Company, at the table, that without scope that eliminates the threat of an alter-ego, there is not going to be a ratification. I stand behind the Negotiating Team and the MEC 100% on this issue as do just about all of us here.
I know we are not the only pilot group hearing the "we must compete with Mesa" mantra from the executive offices, and we are not the only group facing an alter-ego. What happened at Mesa with Freedom has become the blueprint for all recent talks. Non-ALPA alter-ego threats have become the latest tactic to keep those flying small jets and turbo-props from acheiving livable wages.
CWASaab,
I can understand that management is going to use any tactic to get what it wants. "Low cost" seems to be the new game nowadays. I don't hear a lot of Southwest bashing out there, but WN also makes up for lower pay through great benefits, something Mesa might be lacking. A friend above said I was completely wrong in that the negotiations at one airline don't affect another. I do believe him now, but where has this so called "pattern negotiations" got the majors?? Each carrier topped the other one until everything came crashing down.
Each carrier's pilot group has to do what's best for themselves. HP has been in negotiations for several years. They want AMR or Delta pay, but it's never going to happen. They also want a pension. How can you ask for a pension when the rest of HP's employees don't have one? The non-pilot folks are in the same wage boat. If the pilots of HP are low paid, then the folks at the gate and at the lower levels of corporate are also lower paid. Not sure what you mean by under-educated? I busted my butt in grad school for an MBA, just like you busted your butt to make a career out of flying.
It is good to see management facing up to their own hypocrisies. AMR and Delta certainly felt the backlash of lavishing their top dogs with bonuses and guaranteed pensions. I'm on the corporate side, but I also fly for fun so I'm not out here to bash pilots.
Glad to have a level headed discussion.
I can understand that management is going to use any tactic to get what it wants. "Low cost" seems to be the new game nowadays. I don't hear a lot of Southwest bashing out there, but WN also makes up for lower pay through great benefits, something Mesa might be lacking. A friend above said I was completely wrong in that the negotiations at one airline don't affect another. I do believe him now, but where has this so called "pattern negotiations" got the majors?? Each carrier topped the other one until everything came crashing down.
Each carrier's pilot group has to do what's best for themselves. HP has been in negotiations for several years. They want AMR or Delta pay, but it's never going to happen. They also want a pension. How can you ask for a pension when the rest of HP's employees don't have one? The non-pilot folks are in the same wage boat. If the pilots of HP are low paid, then the folks at the gate and at the lower levels of corporate are also lower paid. Not sure what you mean by under-educated? I busted my butt in grad school for an MBA, just like you busted your butt to make a career out of flying.
It is good to see management facing up to their own hypocrisies. AMR and Delta certainly felt the backlash of lavishing their top dogs with bonuses and guaranteed pensions. I'm on the corporate side, but I also fly for fun so I'm not out here to bash pilots.
Glad to have a level headed discussion.
Brother Francis
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2002
- Posts
- 266
No worries, the game has been going on for a long time. When we at Mesa heard about our CR7 and CR9 order in 2001, we were all excited about it. Now, many of us do not want them anymore. An aircraft that can hold 90 seats belongs at a mainline carrier, flown by mainline pilots, not 300 hour pilots.
....but you will bid the aircraft right.
....but you will bid the aircraft right.
There are a few things that need to be pointed out when it comes to Freedom. Instead of getting a side letter to the current contract when it came to getting the 700/900's online, the ALPA leadership drug their feet, asking for wages higher than America West pilots made. At the same time Duane Woerth was publicly annoucing that he would not endorse the 900 flying at the regional level. Throw into the mix, USAirways scope clause regarding flying over 70-seats and you have the reason why JO started Freedom. In actuality, Freedoms contract had higher pay. I guess the arguement comes down to where do you want to draw the line when it comes to what type of aircraft a regional can fly. I think that there shouldn't be limits to career growth at any company you fly for. Inhouse unions seem to get changes done more quickly and avoid the pressure from a national type of union trying to represent both regionals and majors. JMHO
CWASaab
Well... Not anymore
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2002
- Posts
- 122
185flyer,
I sure didn't mean to imply that you, or even most airline management types, are under-educated, my comment was directed at mesaba's management. So unless you work for XJ, please accept my apologies.
The sad fact is that if you were to join XJ's Senior Leadership Team your MBA would be a 100% increase in the current collective C.V. As of right now we don't even have a single MBA, just one masters degree in the group, a masters of Management and Organizational Development from American University. And that sheepskin isn't even hanging the the biggest office in the G.O.
As far as the contract stuff goes, and despite what my MBA holding older brother thinks of my level of understanding, I do know that Managament's job is to maximize value for the share holders (of which I am one). However the fact that our current wages were negotiated more than six years ago, and that our starting FOs make less than $20,000 flying a four engine jet and top out at about 29K (and we currently have plenty of FOs who have topped out the FO scale) needs to be changed.
All the while the President CEO and Director of Mesaba Holdings, Paul Foley, took a 36% pay raise last year. The SLT here at Mesaba Aviation was equally rewarded for their work. Not only does Foley get plenty of cash, but he commutes from NY and the company pays him extra money to do so. How many airlines out there cover travel and housing expenses for commuting pilots?
I guess my point is that if our SLT were interested in the success of the airline more than the growth of their own bank accounts then they need to step up to the plate, offer us a decent contract with liveable wages and work rules so that we can continue to attract the type of quality people we currently have working in the flight deck.
Oh, and they need to cut the fat at the G.O. I am still waiting to find out why our Mair Holding officers (all two of them) needed to move into seperate offices in downtown MSP. My best guess is they knew that they would be too embarassed to show themselves to the rank and file with all the money they wasted buying that montana based-dark-cloud-on-the-horizon airline to try and scare us.
I sure didn't mean to imply that you, or even most airline management types, are under-educated, my comment was directed at mesaba's management. So unless you work for XJ, please accept my apologies.
The sad fact is that if you were to join XJ's Senior Leadership Team your MBA would be a 100% increase in the current collective C.V. As of right now we don't even have a single MBA, just one masters degree in the group, a masters of Management and Organizational Development from American University. And that sheepskin isn't even hanging the the biggest office in the G.O.
As far as the contract stuff goes, and despite what my MBA holding older brother thinks of my level of understanding, I do know that Managament's job is to maximize value for the share holders (of which I am one). However the fact that our current wages were negotiated more than six years ago, and that our starting FOs make less than $20,000 flying a four engine jet and top out at about 29K (and we currently have plenty of FOs who have topped out the FO scale) needs to be changed.
All the while the President CEO and Director of Mesaba Holdings, Paul Foley, took a 36% pay raise last year. The SLT here at Mesaba Aviation was equally rewarded for their work. Not only does Foley get plenty of cash, but he commutes from NY and the company pays him extra money to do so. How many airlines out there cover travel and housing expenses for commuting pilots?
I guess my point is that if our SLT were interested in the success of the airline more than the growth of their own bank accounts then they need to step up to the plate, offer us a decent contract with liveable wages and work rules so that we can continue to attract the type of quality people we currently have working in the flight deck.
Oh, and they need to cut the fat at the G.O. I am still waiting to find out why our Mair Holding officers (all two of them) needed to move into seperate offices in downtown MSP. My best guess is they knew that they would be too embarassed to show themselves to the rank and file with all the money they wasted buying that montana based-dark-cloud-on-the-horizon airline to try and scare us.
acaTerry
SAPM
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Posts
- 2,393
185flyer,
I have read this thread from start to end, and I agree with the others: I think it would behoove you to step back and be quiet. You are offering opinions on subjects that you know nothing about.
It would be like me going in to a hospital and telling the doctors how easy they have it, how I think a surgery should be performed, etc.
You say you have a right to your opinion, but how can you even formulate an opinion on issues that you are so ignorant about? A 200 hour private pilot spouting off opinions and trying to educate airline pilots who ARE in the thick of it is a waste of time and a confession of stupidity.
I am a military type, and until I got to the airlines, I too thought low of unions. In the military mind, especially the Marines, you did your job and that was that. The job got done, you were taken care of, and that's how it was. The officers had to make sure certain things happened, the NCO's and nonrates made these things happen, and it was all a cooperative and mutually respected relationship.
But something I found out quickly was that a union is necessary in the airlines and that management will thrive on any weakness in a pilot group whether it is their own pilot group or another airlines group that "lowers the bar".
You see, unlike it was in the good ole USMC, people in the upper levels have no respect for the welfare of their subordinates in the airline business. As a staff level NCO, I would see to it that my Marines were fed, rested adeqautely, and equipped. THEN, and only when they "got theirs" would I get mine. This is not so in the airlines. In the airlines, management gets theirs first, then tells you that there is not enough to go around for you. Even if there is plenty to go around, they will tell you that it's too bad because "well, XYZ airline's pilots are doing it for X dollars". Couple this with those who are not even in the job yet telling you "Oh, I'd do it for nothing, I just want to fly a jet". Well, spooge off in your pants for 6 months until the reality of flying a jet, making someone else rich while your wife and kid are wondering how can daddy be gone so much and make no money gets quite old. You have no idea the long, hard, expensive road it takes to get an airline pilot job. Then to be told (and have it published in your state newspaper) that a B757 should max out at $90,000. My brother-in-law got a starting pay offer nearly that at an airline to be a computer programmer! He's only 29!! A pilot is well into their 30's by the time they get a major airline job. Then forced retirement at age 60? How can you pay off the HUGE debt, pay for your house, save for kids college and put into a retirement if you max out at 90 thousand in less than 30 years?
Especially when some kids with low time and NO EXPERIENCE come in and lower the pay you make because they "just want to fly a jet" or "will gladly trade places with you" etc etc. Whores they are....
Please, let those who know what they are talking about educate those who do not. Opinions are worthless until you have some idea what you are talking about. In the meantime, act more like a sponge and try to learn from those who DO know what they are talking about. Perhaps one day it will be YOU who is watching YOUR profession fall apart. See how you feel then. THEN you can give an opinion. In the meantime, to quote a great genius of all times......ZIP IT SCOTTY.....
AND ANOTHER THING....the question about why does a pilot deserve a pension when HP has other groups without one. YOU MUST BE A LIBERAL. Give it all to everyone or no one gets it. How about I don't get to keep my house because someone else out there does not have a house?
Show me a company that gives all it's employees the same package. Pilots are a skilled labor. Rampers, for example, are not a skilled labor. (NO WAY AM I LOWERING YOU RAMPERS, YOU GUYS ARE GREAT) Why doesn't Parker give up his retirement? Use your reason here. Does not work does it? Again, turn off your transmitter and turn on your receiver. Then again, you sound like someone pursuing a management degree. So you probably do not care anyway. Enjoy the 3 houses.
I have read this thread from start to end, and I agree with the others: I think it would behoove you to step back and be quiet. You are offering opinions on subjects that you know nothing about.
It would be like me going in to a hospital and telling the doctors how easy they have it, how I think a surgery should be performed, etc.
You say you have a right to your opinion, but how can you even formulate an opinion on issues that you are so ignorant about? A 200 hour private pilot spouting off opinions and trying to educate airline pilots who ARE in the thick of it is a waste of time and a confession of stupidity.
I am a military type, and until I got to the airlines, I too thought low of unions. In the military mind, especially the Marines, you did your job and that was that. The job got done, you were taken care of, and that's how it was. The officers had to make sure certain things happened, the NCO's and nonrates made these things happen, and it was all a cooperative and mutually respected relationship.
But something I found out quickly was that a union is necessary in the airlines and that management will thrive on any weakness in a pilot group whether it is their own pilot group or another airlines group that "lowers the bar".
You see, unlike it was in the good ole USMC, people in the upper levels have no respect for the welfare of their subordinates in the airline business. As a staff level NCO, I would see to it that my Marines were fed, rested adeqautely, and equipped. THEN, and only when they "got theirs" would I get mine. This is not so in the airlines. In the airlines, management gets theirs first, then tells you that there is not enough to go around for you. Even if there is plenty to go around, they will tell you that it's too bad because "well, XYZ airline's pilots are doing it for X dollars". Couple this with those who are not even in the job yet telling you "Oh, I'd do it for nothing, I just want to fly a jet". Well, spooge off in your pants for 6 months until the reality of flying a jet, making someone else rich while your wife and kid are wondering how can daddy be gone so much and make no money gets quite old. You have no idea the long, hard, expensive road it takes to get an airline pilot job. Then to be told (and have it published in your state newspaper) that a B757 should max out at $90,000. My brother-in-law got a starting pay offer nearly that at an airline to be a computer programmer! He's only 29!! A pilot is well into their 30's by the time they get a major airline job. Then forced retirement at age 60? How can you pay off the HUGE debt, pay for your house, save for kids college and put into a retirement if you max out at 90 thousand in less than 30 years?
Especially when some kids with low time and NO EXPERIENCE come in and lower the pay you make because they "just want to fly a jet" or "will gladly trade places with you" etc etc. Whores they are....
Please, let those who know what they are talking about educate those who do not. Opinions are worthless until you have some idea what you are talking about. In the meantime, act more like a sponge and try to learn from those who DO know what they are talking about. Perhaps one day it will be YOU who is watching YOUR profession fall apart. See how you feel then. THEN you can give an opinion. In the meantime, to quote a great genius of all times......ZIP IT SCOTTY.....
AND ANOTHER THING....the question about why does a pilot deserve a pension when HP has other groups without one. YOU MUST BE A LIBERAL. Give it all to everyone or no one gets it. How about I don't get to keep my house because someone else out there does not have a house?
Show me a company that gives all it's employees the same package. Pilots are a skilled labor. Rampers, for example, are not a skilled labor. (NO WAY AM I LOWERING YOU RAMPERS, YOU GUYS ARE GREAT) Why doesn't Parker give up his retirement? Use your reason here. Does not work does it? Again, turn off your transmitter and turn on your receiver. Then again, you sound like someone pursuing a management degree. So you probably do not care anyway. Enjoy the 3 houses.
Last edited:
Simon Says
New Airbus Regional Jet
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2001
- Posts
- 1,036
saabservant
disgruntled
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2003
- Posts
- 337
acaTerry:
Thanks so much for speaking for all of us who are fighting the Mesa precedent! I too am living the same dream, for low pay, no time at home, and no retirement. Maybe I should have stayed in the Corps!
We really do need to educate our young aviators who say they will fly for food. They may feel cool for a year, but then they realize this is a career, a profession, and they have sold themselves out. We at XJ won't play that anymore!
Semper Fidelis
(to country, corps, and now my ALPA brothers)
Thanks so much for speaking for all of us who are fighting the Mesa precedent! I too am living the same dream, for low pay, no time at home, and no retirement. Maybe I should have stayed in the Corps!
We really do need to educate our young aviators who say they will fly for food. They may feel cool for a year, but then they realize this is a career, a profession, and they have sold themselves out. We at XJ won't play that anymore!
Semper Fidelis
(to country, corps, and now my ALPA brothers)
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