Mesa and Delta...It's official

[ATR-DRIVR]

FDJ2, Im a new pilot at CMR and dont know much about the RJDC and really dont care at this moment. I will tell you this when the deal with Delta and Mesa came out you were all happy and making fun of the CMR and ASA guys so you have no right or place to ask anyone to be honest and show courage because those qualities in a person would make you realise that Mesa coming into Delta, DCI or what ever you want to call it is bad news for all of us. I think you are a very bitter man and I hope you can get over this childish and imature obsession (The RJDC). Again I dont care about the RJDC but I am tired of reading the same thing over and over. Answer the question, answer the question. For god sake enough. You dont like the guys at CMR and ASA great we get the message. You think the RJDC has no chance in the courts great we got the message on that also. Please just let it end. Listen we have more important things to worry about like Delta going Banckrupt. Just let it end. Nothing personal just tired of the same thing over and over. UBA757

THANK YOU.

 

[viper01]

Well said....

 

[PCL_128]

I'm sure he'd be happy to stop as soon as someone answers the frickin' questions!!!! Fins, Surplus, N, somebody must have the balls to actually answer a question or two. These questions have been posted on here and on the ALPA national boards and nobody will answer despite the fact that many RJDC supporters frequent both boards. The RJDC supporters are looking pretty ignorant and pathetic right about now if they're too afraid to even answer some straight forwards questions.

 

[SouthTex]

Let's move this convo to a different forum.....like a bar, oh wait, I am already there.


Borracho ain't just for the beans anymore.

 

[uba757]

PCL not in every single F--ing Thread. Every Thread turns into the same F--ing thing. Answer the question over and over. Just do it in one thread and the rest of us are free not to have to read it but not every single Thread. UBA757

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2, Im a new pilot at CMR and dont know much about the RJDC and really dont care at this moment.

Kind of short sighted on your part, but whatever.


I will tell you this when the deal with Delta and Mesa came out you were all happy and making fun of the CMR and ASA guys

No I was not. Previous Delta scope protections would not have allowed Mesa to join DCI. Unfortunately we had to give up some scope protections this fall. Remember how the RJDC gloated about their effectiveness in gaining new growth flying for DCI shortly after our LOA was signed. Well welcome to the RJDC party. No scope for anyone. No my friend I'm not happy about our scope language and I'm not happy that more and more flying is being outsourced to the cheapest bidder.

so you have no right or place to ask anyone to be honest and show courage because those qualities in a person would make you realise that Mesa coming into Delta, DCI or what ever you want to call it is bad news for all of us.

News flash, more flying going to DCI is bad for all of us, but you'll learn that one day.

I think you are a very bitter man and I hope you can get over this childish and imature obsession (The RJDC).

I think you're naive and uninformed, so what.

Again I dont care about the RJDC but I am tired of reading the same thing over and over.

Then don't read it. Stick your head in the sand, keep your butt in the air and everything will be o.k.

Answer the question, answer the question. For god sake enough.

Perhaps if the RJDC folks could muster the courage to actually answer a few straight forward questions with some straight forward answers this would all be over. If I were you I'd worry more about what the RJDC refuses to tell you, then my silly little questions.

Please just let it end. Listen we have more important things to worry about like Delta going Banckrupt. Just let it end. Nothing personal just tired of the same thing over and over. UBA757

No you really don't have more important things to worry about. You are just beginning to see the effects of the scope free world the RJDC is litigating for. Mesa at DCI, you think that's bad, nothing against the good folks at Mesa, but that's just the tip of the iceberg the RJDC would reap for all professional pilots. Sorry, as long as there is a group of cowards, like the RJDC, running around trying to eliminate scope protections for all ALPA pilots, ducking and dodging answering just a few basic questions, I'm going to hound them.

 

[uba757]

First, If your opinion of me is that Im naive and short sighted then that is your opinion again I really dont care. What I do care about is that the company that I fly for is part of "THE DELTA CONNECTION" and I have a family to feed and if DELTA goes UNDER then I have a REAL problem.

Second, When the deal was announced you were the first to come out and say "Take that ASA/CMR how do you like it now" This is not word for word but is darn close to what you meant. That is why I say you were happy.

Third, Yes it is probably true that more flying going to other commuters not wholy owned by Delta is bad for all of us. And I know this is not what you really mean but Im going to put my own spin on it.

Fourth, So again you come out with the naive and uninformed comment, so I see that you repeat yourself when you have nothing better to put forward. Now I understand why you ask the same question over and over and over and over.

Fifth, Every thread that you go into is the same sh-t you ask the same question over and over so then basically what you are telling me is that I have to stop coming into Flight info completly if I dont want to read about you and the RJDC guys that in YOUR OPINION will not answer your question.

Sixth and Last, Sorry to all that have to read this long reply. FDJ2, this is not a personal attack on you. If you think it is im sorry you feel that way. Im new to CMR I am trying to get comfortable with the rules and procedures at my new company but once I do that I will learn all I can about the RJDC and we will sit down as adversaries and disscuss it at lenght in one and I really mean only one thread. UBA757

 

[FDJ2]

First, If your opinion of me is that Im naive and short sighted then that is your opinion again I really dont care.

I don't care if you think I'm bitter.

What I do care about is that the company that I fly for is part of "THE DELTA CONNECTION" and I have a family to feed and if DELTA goes UNDER then I have a REAL problem.

Mesa and Chq are also part of Delta Connection, don't those pilots have a family to feed?

Second, When the deal was announced you were the first to come out and say "Take that ASA/CMR how do you like it now" This is not word for word but is darn close to what you meant.

That's not even close to what I said. But I guess that doesn't really matter.

That is why I say you were happy.

Well you are wrong. What can I tell you.

Third, Yes it is probably true that more flying going to other commuters not wholy owned by Delta is bad for all of us. And I know this is not what you really mean but Im going to put my own spin on it.

As long as you realize that it is your spin.

Fourth, So again you come out with the naive and uninformed comment, so I see that you repeat yourself when you have nothing better to put forward.

Or I nailed it good.

Now I understand why you ask the same question over and over and over and over.

Actually, I repeat the question, because the cowards at the RJDC, who pretend to want to inform with their "updates" actually just want to propagate the same old misinformation and refuse to come clean and answer direct questions regarding their litigation.

Fifth, Every thread that you go into is the same sh-t you ask the same question over and over so then basically what you are telling me is that I have to stop coming into Flight info completly if I dont want to read about you and the RJDC guys that in YOUR OPINION will not answer your question.

It's not my opinion that they won't answer the questions. They haven't. Besides, you don't have to read this thread and there are plenty of threads on this forum that have nothing to do with the RJDC, many that I don't read or post on and many that I share my comments on and never bring up the RJDC.

Sixth and Last, Sorry to all that have to read this long reply. FDJ2, this is not a personal attack on you. If you think it is im sorry you feel that way. Im new to CMR I am trying to get comfortable with the rules and procedures at my new company but once I do that I will learn all I can about the RJDC and we will sit down as adversaries and disscuss it at lenght in one and I really mean only one thread. UBA757

Well it's nice to know that nothing you stated was personal. Get comfortable in your new job, it must be exciting, learn your new rules and procedures and then learn all that you can about this profession. When you feel your ready, don't sit down as an adversary, but rather sit down as a fellow pilot and discuss this issue like a professional. A true dialogue.

 

[PCL_128]

Fins, Surplus, N, anybody? Is there no RJDC puke willing to answer these questions? We're still waiting.

 

[uba757]

FDJ2, I know a great deal about this profession. I have worked for a union carrier (ALPA) and also for a non-union carrier. I have flown large jets just like you do and just because the plane you fly has more than 50, 60 or 70 seats does not make you a know it all. For you to sit here and tell me that I will learn about the profession is a load of SH-t and you and I both know this. Learning about the profession has nothing to do with spinning everything in a way that makes me think that am always right. You do make things very personal and I dont understand why.

I have found 5 threads in which you have asked the same stupid question so what is it that you are looking for? No matter what answer you get you will never be satisfied and will continue to ask the same question untill you get the answer you want.

The pilots at Mesa and the pilots at CHQ have other companies to fall back to for flying, us pilots at ASA/CMR only have DELTA (WE ARE WHOLLY OWNED, they are not). That is a very big difference in my opinion obviously not in yours. This is why I say we need to work toguether no against each other. We all (DELTA,ASA,COMAIR) have the most to loose.

To sit down as fellow pilots to discuss ideas we both have to be willing to learn something from the other and you are not. You have to be willing to listen with an open mind and again you are not.

I hope this is the last of it. UBA757

 

[FDJ2]

For you to sit here and tell me that I will learn about the profession is a load of SH-t and you and I both know this.

You're right, you probably won't learn anything about this profession.

You do make things very personal and I dont understand why.

Hey bubba, you were the one who started with the personal stuff. If you can't take it coming back at you, then don't start. From your very first post to me:

"I think you are a very bitter man and I hope you can get over this childish and imature obsession"

Naw, that wasn't personal.

I have found 5 threads in which you have asked the same stupid question so what is it that you are looking for?

Let's see, hmmmmmm. How about some answers.

No matter what answer you get you will never be satisfied and will continue to ask the same question untill you get the answer you want.

How do you know, they haven't answered any of the questions yet? Geez.

The pilots at Mesa and the pilots at CHQ have other companies to fall back to for flying, us pilots at ASA/CMR only have DELTA (WE ARE WHOLLY OWNED, they are not).

So, what does being wholly owned or not entitle you too? The RJDC can't even come up with an answer to that one.

That is a very big difference in my opinion obviously not in yours. This is why I say we need to work toguether no against each other.

It sure is nice working with guys who have filed a lawsuit to eliminate the scope protections in my CBA and those of all the other ALPA carriers. NOT. BTW, our furloughed pilots would really like to thank the CMR MEC for slamming the door in their face.

To sit down as fellow pilots to discuss ideas we both have to be willing to learn something from the other and you are not. You have to be willing to listen with an open mind and again you are not.

Wait a second there big guy. I asked some questions, because I want to know what the RJDC position is on scope and they refuse to answer my questions and you think that I'm the impediment to discussing ideas. Amazing. I guess discussion is a one way street where you live, but I think it involves honesty and answering straight forward questions with straight forward answers.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

uba,

Forget it, there is nothing you can say to change his mind. He and fortunately just a few others like him in their thinking, are only a small handful of the good Delta folks. They think they have ALL the answers to Delta's situation, complete insight to the decisions made across the street, and of course, the only way or in their minds to solve the problem, get rid of all those pesky rj's! Great! Mainline wants us to disappear? Ok, how about ASA and CMR just take the weekend off and see if that helps Big D out!

 

[FDJ2]

uba,

Forget it, there is nothing you can say to change his mind.

ATR, nice personal jabs throughout your post. It's interesting how just asking questions can get you and your cohorts so worked up. What is it about just a few simple and straight forward questions that is so bothersome? Do you know the answers to any of these questions? Perhaps you could share them with us. I guess your answer is to attack the questioner? Nice.

 

[P38JLightning]

Answer the man's questions, geesh.

Although I find your general retreat from legitamate debate and reliance on "answer my freaking questions" mantra a bit annoying, I conceed you bring up some valid points and I will attempt to answer them as best a non RJDC supporter can. As always, if I miss the mark somehow, any "real" RJDCer is free to step up and answer the questions themselves.



>>>Let me ask you a few questions, I want to get a feel for where your interpretation of the RJDC and their lawsuit is:

According to the RJDC, does any pilot group own any DL code flying?


Yes. All ALPA pilot groups, in or out of DCI presently, have equal rights over DL code, unless ALPA sits down and agrees with all of us on a proper and mutually acceptable dividing line. (As you can imagine, this puts DAL pilots’ collective nards in a vice and at the very least is a slippery slope that only requires one ALPA pilot group with a desire to fly UNRESTRICTED DL code to ruin every single last block hour.



Now, on the other hand, if the RJDC wins this sort of unlimited injunctive relief, they think it will put the fear of the Almighty into DALPA/ALPA and they will come begging for a palatable solution.


According to the RJDC, can ALPA negotiate scope language for the DAL pilots that limits another ALPA pilot group access to the DL code?



No. It would be a free for all. Mesa would be able to bid 767ER flying, and wouldn’t even need to employ the mythical “separate certificate trick” people so often misunderstand.

According to the RJDC, does CMR/ASA being wholly owned or not have any effect on the RJDC lawsuit? If so, what does it change?



No. All ALPA pilots are equal and deserve equal representation, ergo all ALPA pilot groups deserve equal bidding chances on all DL code, absent an all party agreement, of course, prohibiting this. Good luck with that one of course.

According to the RJDC lawsuit, would ALPA be allowed to negotiate scope limits on the DL code which would prevent another ALPA pilot group from flying DL code passengers on 90 seat, 110 seat or 150 seat aircraft?



Basically the same as the above questions. If you really corner a chatty RJDCer and press long enough, he will say in theory its okay to “divide up the work” (i.e. create a 70 seat line in the sand for mainline/non mainline) but when the chips are down, they want it all.



The itemized monetary damage multipliers they publish and rely on, for now, are all based on 70 seats and under. Many of their hard core supporters say that’s all they want, unlimited 70 and below, with a few of the ASA RJDCers saying they deserve unlimited 105 seats (or whatever the max certifiable of the AVRO they once briefly had was).



But as you pointed out, their lawsuit officially only seeks, as it stands for now, to eliminate any ALPA group from limiting another ALPA group. It pays lip service to wholly owned airlines, hinting at how they deserve to be in a preferred class in a free for all bidding war, but to cover their bases in the event that they were ever spun off, they left it wide open on purpose.


They even courted non union and teamster pilots with their rhetoric (hey guys, look what evil DALPA scope could do to YOU!) but for whatever reason they were never included in the lawsuit (plaintiffs or remedies).

Its important to note that the RJDC was crafted during the best of times. A time when anything that operated on a regional property could generate as much as 30% profit margins. From this point of view, one is on top of the world, yet at the same time has nothing to lose. Its a dangerous perspective to have.


The RJDC forefathers, the supporters of the now infamous PID, left that movement wide open as well. Their stratedgy? To take the runway, power-up, reach V1+10 knots and then all sit down and try to iron out a mutually acceptable solution. They truly believed that in an integration of lists, staple was the floor and DOH was the ceiling, and as long as you negotiated hard you were likely to get some sort of happy medium within those parameters.


That all or nothing mentality has spilled over into the RJDC. Put ALPA/DALPA's nards in a vice, then only release them when all your demands are met. Its also important to note that the RJDC brings up some valid points, and correctly points out some damming evidence about ALPA's flawed practices and hypocricies. Much of their arguement and evidence is either true or based heavily on truth.

Many of their theoretical premises are true too, like the notion of a mutually acceptable dividing line. And some of their slightly lesser logical points have at least a basis in legal precident, like the concept of "squatter's rights" or common law property rights.

I think their strategy is to hold a piano over ALPA's head, start cutting away at the already frayed rope, and hope for ALPA to deal on their terms. At best they would get onelist, maybe even DOH but who knows, and at the very least, they would be able to put in a bid for 757/777/787, etc flying, which many have bragged they would be more than happy to do for considerably less than those, especialy at DAL, presently do it for.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Attack, huh? If you say so...sigh. I am not worked up at all over the rjdc thing. First off, I know nothing about it, have read nothing about it. About all I know is what I read on here and it seems all that is usually alot of yelling and name calling. I was on the ATR for about 5 yrs and just came over to this in Jan. You have questions about it? Ok, I would guess there is plenty of reading material on it available. Since it apparently is in the legal system there might be some things not available until the trip through the court is complete. You could call this Ford guy and see if he can answer your questions. If you think my comment is personal attack, (A) I apologize, (B) you seem to be pretty wound up yourself on this thing. Nothing you or I can do can change the legal wranglings, I myself am going to worry more about the day to day dealings at work than that at this point, just me. When I start my 4-day tomorrow, I am going to do everything I can to make sure the passengers who are paying my salary get to their destination quickly and safely as possible.
Hey, I don't like the fact that we are in negotiations and no progress seems to be the daily report, but I would rather show a smile and say thanks to the folks in back so they might get back on later down the road.