Melted Engines

[JD2003]

So why no accident report on this? Does the FAA not want the public to know how unsafe they really are?

What's the deal? Publish it, including the CVR, no matter how bad it is.

 

[Max Q]

I saw a prelim NTSB report a while ago. Is it not there anymore?

 

[BoilerUP]

The CRJ is not meant to go much above 280 -310.... Pushing it up to 340 (or as the PNCL guys did) max alt. is a very risky plan... Unless empty with min fuel, it just isn't powerful enough. Period....

Not sure if serious...?

The CRJ-200 flies just fine in the mid-30s, you just 1. have to keep speed on the wing during the climb, and 2. it takes you a good long while to get there.

Sure the plane is underpowered, and high ISA temps combined with heavy weights give it the 'climb restricted jet' moniker. But for farks sake, its not like the plane is teetering in coffin corner at FL340 or even higher, where only Chuck Yeager and Tim Martins dare to fly it.

Don't let the swept wing get slow and it'll be just fine.

Lemme tell ya for those that want the badge of honor, there is no real difference between cruising around at 280 or 380....

Probably just a thousand pounds per hour of fuel.

 

[asayankee]

Just got refiled today for a pack deferral.....difference between FL 330 and 250 was 140lbs. That's it......about $70 of fuel that UA, DL, AA pays anyway. That's it! Altitude in the CRJ200 is almost immaterial. Why bother???

 

[higney85]

I preffer Speed Mode in a climb, with Turb. mode engaged. Works like a champ. Only need to be on the lookout in the mid 20s for a climb rate less than 500fpm. Its more accurate and precise than fumbling V/S mode all the way through the climb, while flying a fluctuating climb speed of +/- 10 knots.

Are you on the -700/900? The -200, when heavy (yea yea, it's relative) and isa + anything over "0" doesn't play well in speed mode above about FL180. VS out of 10K with a reduction above FL180-210 down to 1.0/then.7/final of .5 (depending on weight and ISA) keeps you at 290/.74 (slowing to .70 into the 30's) has worked well over the last 4K+ hours in my personal opinion.

 

[Varmint]

Just got refiled today for a pack deferral.....difference between FL 330 and 250 was 140lbs. That's it......about $70 of fuel that UA, DL, AA pays anyway. That's it! Altitude in the CRJ200 is almost immaterial. Why bother???

What is not immaterial is ($70/flight x 365) x 500 flts/day = $12,775,000/yr.

Almost worse case scenario but it's still a lot of coin. It's a pass through cost so it doesn't matter...right? Well, until you get hired at mainline.

 

[777forever]

Because being dead on the bucket for some random, arbitrary climb speed is more important than passenger comfort.

I hear this argument all the time and I think it's irrelevant like the flight spoilers argument. Jet vs prop is a difference passengers can feel. Passengers don't notice small oscillations from speed mode in the climb or the slight rumble from speed brakes.

Even I can't remember myself ever thinking after a flight that the pilot oscillated too much during the climb or I was uncomfortable from flight spoiler noise.

 

[Clutch]

I notice them both when in the back. Especially flight spoilers. I can not stand over use of those things. Some guys even use then with power in. Where does the company find these bozo's?

 

[JumpersAway]

Because being dead on the bucket for some random, arbitrary climb speed is more important than passenger comfort.

Are you dead in the head???? What is the difference between an adjustment in v/s with speed mode and v/s???? The nose is gonna'move either way..........

I'm on the CRJ-200, for the previous poster that wanted to know. One thing I didn't mention- I use v/s mode to get myself roughly established on my climb speed. Then I Speed Mode it with Turb Mode on. Nice climb with no oscillating or fingering the MCP...

 

[BoilerUP]

I notice them both when in the back.

Me too...and more non-pilot passengers than many flight crews realize.

Its not the noise from flight spoilers that gets passengers' attention - its the associated airframe rumble. Almost as startling to pax as the 12 gauge that goes off in the floor when 90% of CR2s put their landing gear down, or the stupid pumps that whir on an Airbus.

But if ya need the boards, use the boards...just please put them in slowly, one notch at a time, vs. the straight pull to full spoilers that many oblivious pilots seem to do.

 

[Clutch]

Are you dead in the head???? What is the difference between an adjustment in v/s with speed mode and v/s???? The nose is gonna'move either way..........

Yeah not really.. Slowly decreasing your vertical speed in one hundred foot increments every few minutes is different than the computer chasing and airspeed that you got from your little cost index. But by all means maintain that 274 knots on the nose..


Dead in the head? Shouldn't you be taxiing out of ramp 4 without a clearance about now?

 

[BigPappa]

I notice them both when in the back. Especially flight spoilers. I can not stand over use of those things. Some guys even use then with power in. Where does the company find these bozo's?

It is a technique sometimes used to allow for passenger comfort and at the same time descending to make an ALT restriction. This allows for some airflow through the stuffy hot cabin. Some packs on the 200 don't work all that great when it comes to cooling.

 

[Inconceivable]

I notice them both when in the back. Especially flight spoilers. I can not stand over use of those things. Some guys even use then with power in. Where does the company find these bozo's?

Crossing restriction, speed limit, and icing conditions on the 200 pretty much require them.

 

[Clutch]

Crossing restriction, speed limit, and icing conditions on the 200 pretty much require them.

I'm referring to the 700.

The 200 I get. Flew it plenty..

 

[Singlecoil]

So do they cover the very basics of jet engines in ground school at the regionals? Like, the jet engine produces the most thrust at (or below) a sea level density altitude. As you climb you lose thrust. For any given altitude, the higher your IAS, the more thrust you get.
If you think about it, the fuel flow gauge is probably the best indicator of how much thrust you are producing. You might be at 92% N1 at sea level and compare that to 92% N1 at altitude. There is a massive difference in the amount of thrust being produced as indicated by your fuel flows.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

So do they cover the very basics of jet engines in ground school at the regionals? Like, the jet engine produces the most thrust at (or below) a sea level density altitude. As you climb you lose thrust. For any given altitude, the higher your IAS, the more thrust you get.
If you think about it, the fuel flow gauge is probably the best indicator of how much thrust you are producing. You might be at 92% N1 at sea level and compare that to 92% N1 at altitude. There is a massive difference in the amount of thrust being produced as indicated by your fuel flows.

Training at the regional level is geared toward keeping people out of trouble, and nothing more. After several high-profile incidents and accidents, most pilots are flying lower and faster than necessary.

Fuel flow is a very good method for ballparking airspeed. 1500pph/side is good for 300kts in the CRJ-200. 1250pph/side is good for 250 kts at a variety of altitudes. This method actually works in many turbojets, and by that I mean the math is pretty easy to correlate FF to airspeed. More germane, there is little interest in thinking about efficiency and accurately maintaining CI speed/Mach thorough the entire profile. Most guys and gals make zero effort to be accurate, and that isn't entirely their fault.

The CRJ-200 is not terribly inefficient. It is simply a slow airplane with corporate heritage for flying between non-hub airports. Canadair didn't change that much because it was an experimental plane that happened to sell. The CRJ-700 and -900 are very good airplanes that are still flown too fast by operators and crews. The nagging itch in most RJ pilots' brains is that they have to go fast everywhere, every time.

Cost index is the way to fly the airplane, but ATC hates it and mainline partners fail to adequately block the flight times. We can easily waste 20 minutes every leg waiting for push and park teams at the contracted, minimum-wage stations. This again requires us to go fast and burn absurd amounts of extra fuel. Some say 300 pounds is nothing for one flight, but add that up...

 

[BigPappa]

So do they cover the very basics of jet engines in ground school at the regionals? Like, the jet engine produces the most thrust at (or below) a sea level density altitude. As you climb you lose thrust. For any given altitude, the higher your IAS, the more thrust you get.
If you think about it, the fuel flow gauge is probably the best indicator of how much thrust you are producing. You might be at 92% N1 at sea level and compare that to 92% N1 at altitude. There is a massive difference in the amount of thrust being produced as indicated by your fuel flows.

Wow, aren't you just brains, where did you learn all of that, Harvard? I am very impressed by your superior knowledge. Btw. every 121 carrier teaches this stuff, if you were not informed.

 

[wms]

I've been using speed mode more lately and have not noticed as much oscillating as in the past.

 

[BentOver]

Not sure if serious...?

The CRJ-200 flies just fine in the mid-30s, you just 1. have to keep speed on the wing during the climb, and 2. it takes you a good long while to get there.

Sure the plane is underpowered, and high ISA temps combined with heavy weights give it the 'climb restricted jet' moniker. But for farks sake, its not like the plane is teetering in coffin corner at FL340 or even higher, where only Chuck Yeager and Tim Martins dare to fly it.

Don't let the swept wing get slow and it'll be just fine. The CRJ takes forever to get up passed 310 or so. Especially in the summer with a full load. I am pretty positive in six years on it I maybe reached 350 once or twice on say a YUL-ATL 2+ hr. leg... Not saying the a/c can't do it, but apparently guys are able to seize engines trying. So I'd say there definitely is an issue climbing to max alt in the a/c.... Either that or guys are just really bad at keeping an eye on the speedtape?

Probably just a thousand pounds per hour of fuel.

I wasn't referring to the fuel burn. Although on a 1.5 hr typical CRJ leg I doubt there are that much savings in fuel considering a third of the time is spent just climbing that high. And the last third is spent getting lower. It's been 7 or 8 years since I've been in the CRJ so I don't care to know the specifics of what the burns used to be. But in a CRJ, climbing to 380 will not save that much given the short segment lenghts.

I was referring to some pilots, for whatever reason, feeling that getting higher is some badge of honor ...

 

[BoilerUP]

The CRJ takes forever to get up passed 310 or so. Especially in the summer with a full load. I am pretty positive in six years on it I maybe reached 350 once or twice on say a YUL-ATL 2+ hr. leg... Not saying the a/c can't do it, but apparently guys are able to seize engines trying. So I'd say there definitely is an issue climbing to max alt in the a/c.... Either that or guys are just really bad at keeping an eye on the speedtape?

CRJ engines aren't seizing (and airplanes stalling) because folks are trying to fly high, they are seizing (and stalling) because pilots aren't paying attention to their effing airspeed and letting the plane get FAR too slow while trying to fly high.

It has been 5+ years since I flew the CR2, but I flew with more than one captain at AWAC that said they had the plane to 390 and even 410 on longer (2.5hr+) segments prior to the post-accident FL370 limit. IIRC, it required a few step climbs as fuel burned off and ISA temperatures not too high.

That's not rocket science, its basic high-altitude, swept-wing aerodynamics...which doesn't seem to really be fully understood by many pilots.

4-1-ohing it isn't itself dangerous - doing so while not paying attention to your airspeed, weight and air temperature in an airplane nobody can ever accuse of being overpowered is.

I'd never argue a "need" to go above the mid-30s in a regional-configured CR2, but there's absolutely no reason it can't be done 100% safely. But ya gotta pay attention!