MDA/CHQ Transition

[kngarthur]

I can end this once and for all. If the situation was reversed, do you think MDA would let CHQ guys come in with "super-seniority"?

 

[mullet]

Is MDA doing contract flying for CHQ? Is CHQ doing flying for US Airways Group? Are the MDA pilots former US Air folks? Get a clue.

 

[FlamingFUPA]

No, plain and simple.

 

[surplus1]

Is MDA doing contract flying for CHQ? Is CHQ doing flying for US Airways Group? Are the MDA pilots former US Air folks? Get a clue.

Who cares, They are separate airlines with separate seniority lists. The fact that CHQ or Republic have a contract with US Air does NOT give any USAir pilot or MDA pilot any right to anything at CHQ or REP and especially not to super seniority

I think it is you who needs to "get a clue".

[No, I don't work for CHQ or REP]

 

[aewanabe]

Not all the MDA pilots are from the APL (ie former USAir).

 

[mullet]

Who cares, They are separate airlines with separate seniority lists. The fact that CHQ or Republic have a contract with US Air does NOT give any USAir pilot or MDA pilot any right to anything at CHQ or REP and especially not to super seniority

I think it is you who needs to "get a clue".

[No, I don't work for CHQ or REP]

The fact that CHQ and Republic having a contract with US Air does
give any US Air pilot or MDA pilot the right to something at CHQ or REP and gives them super senority. J4J already exists at CHQ. Unfortunately if you fly for US air express nowadays you have to make the deal with the devil. If you still want their flying, you will still have to give up things up. Making comments that we should think about it being the other way around is dumb. It is US AIR group flying now, not REP. Ease up there hardliner. I dont fly for CHQ REP or MDA.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Okay, time to stop lurking and jump into the fray.

It amazes me how people can spin facts to fit whatever suits thier purposes. Pilots seem to be rather adept at this. Heres the way I see it...

There is a big difference between giving flying to an affiliate carrier and giving flying AND mainline aircraft to an affiliate carrier. The later is what is occurring at MDA. In fact, we should call it US Airways because "Mid Atlantic" doesn't even really exist, except as essentially a "C" Scale for furloughed mainline pilots and FA's. This situation with the EMB-170s is in essence no different than transfering the A330 flying to Republic. The size of the airplane should not make a difference, only that a pilot group is getting screwed at the pleasure of management.

The only technical grey area here is the fact that the MDA pilots are in a black hole in terms of union representation. They are part of the US Airways APL, therefore they are US Airways pilots, yet there has not been an agreement yet on what CBAs, if any, cover these pilots. IMHO, this move to place the aircraft at Republic may be as much about avoiding additional "costs" associated by whatever contractual protections the MDA pilots might earn as is about the cash infusion offered by Republic. If that is the case, then union members of every ilk should be mortified... Or maybe we are going to do the typical pilot thing: "I got mine, f*ck you."

I have seen time and time agian on this forum CHQ pilots say, "Hey, I not responsible for the decisions management makes. I just fly what they tell me to." Well, this time it IS a labor decision. This is no different than EMB jets being taken from you and given to another company. "Ah but we have strong scope and successorship language" you say? Wasn't that the song sung by mainline pilots not so long ago? Those who don't know history... Well, you know the rest.

Republic pilots: Would it really be that bad to take on 300 MDA pilots? Even if it was date of hire (which it would never be, some sort of equitable shuffle is more likely) it would maybe delay your precious upgrade a whole three or four months? I thought you were the fastest growing regional? Aren't there more EMB-170's coming on the UAL side? Besides, if things work out at US Airways all those MDA folks will be gone soon just to cover the retirements at the mainline. In short, don't be a bunch of short sighted, high-on-new-jet-smell snobs.

Okay, lemme have it!

 

[the turtle]

good post.

 

[stb]

What I dont understand is how many pilots are flying for REP today?

If MDA was getting absorbed by the CHQ 121 certificate, I could understand the "super senority" battle cry.

How can CHQ 121 cerificate pilots work for a new unissued REP 121 cetificate ask for their CHQ date of hire when in fact they will be working for essentially a new airline? How that for spin?

If a CHQ pilot gets transfered/new hired to the REP certificate, will they have to go through REP indoc and some form of training? Sign new 2 year $15,000 training contract for the new company?


Rumor has it that a indoc/ground school class of 5 from MDA will start REP on Wednesday. Any confirmation from the pilots at the CHQ little red schoolhouse?

 

[OldManPilot]

That info is true... Plus those at MDA that have now passed on REP will NOT recieve a second chance. The CHQ J4J language does not allow for second chance", Its a take it or leave it deal. Remaining positions at REP will be filled by pilots on the CHQ seniority list!

 

[LearLove]

That info is true... Plus those at MDA that have now passed on REP will NOT recieve a second chance. The CHQ J4J language does not allow for second chance", Its a take it or leave it deal. Remaining positions at REP will be filled by pilots on the CHQ seniority list!

You need to shut your f'in pie hole. Just about everyone of your posts is dead wrong. "thoes at MDA that have passed... bla bla bla something about only one chance" well buddy we all passed, not once but twice and the company is still comming at us to ask again by telling us we need to fill out a J4J pref form by Thurs.

In fact I'm right smack in the middle of this and I know whats up. Most of the posts about this issue about what has happened and what will happen are way off base by many of you guys. It's one of the reasons that I haven't been posting much here. I'm getting a kick out of reading posts by people that are so serious on this issue and post serious info but its way wrong.

 

[OldManPilot]

OK ...

But... not ALL passed.

Your group tried to make your fellow pilots believe they would be SCAB's if they came to REP. That is about as low as you can get.

Watch and see what happens.


Oh and Lear, go back to ALG and your DASH-8's...

 

[FR8mastr]

old man, you are correct as the 5 are not scabs. That being said these individuals are even worse in my book. Not only are they crossing the line that the other 300 pilots are standing for they are personally stabbing their friends in the back. Hopefully this scum will get what's comming to them. The senior folks at the Division have put their jobs on the line so that the junior folks could have jobs at Republic as well, and to say thank you for trying to save their jobs these bottom dwellers go and undercut the very people that are standing for them. But yes you are correct, technically they are not SCABS.

 

[stb]

Old Man Pilot,
Before the terms of "super senority, butts on the street, I dont owe anybody anything, they made the wrong choice and taking our jobs"

These are the questions you should be asking

1. If a CHQ pilot gets transfered/new hired to the REP certificate, will they have to go through REP indoc and some form of training?

2. Sign new 2 year $15,000 training contract for the new company?

3. If I go to REP do I have to resign my CHQ position?

4. .... can I bid back to CHQ? Seat lock?

5. .... and fail the training, am I able to go back to CHQ?
(Slim to none but still can happen of failing training)

6. .... what is my date of hire? Pay and vacation issues.
You are starting employment at another 121 certificate

7. .... does my accrued vacation go with me to REP?

8. .... does my accrued sick bank go with me?

9. What happens to my DOH for the travel pass?

10. Will I have some type of representation from the Teamsters if I go to REP?
Does REP even have a working agreement, it is a new certificate?

CHQ pilots should have these answers from management.
Just because it is in the CHQ contract, dont assume.

 

[kngarthur]

The fact that CHQ and Republic having a contract with US Air does
give any US Air pilot or MDA pilot the right to something at CHQ or REP and gives them super senority. J4J already exists at CHQ. Unfortunately if you fly for US air express nowadays you have to make the deal with the devil. If you still want their flying, you will still have to give up things up. Making comments that we should think about it being the other way around is dumb. It is US AIR group flying now, not REP. Ease up there hardliner. I dont fly for CHQ REP or MDA.

Moron! Three things, most dear to a pilot's life--Sex, Seniorty, and then Salary! You mess with my seniorty, you better watch it@!

 

[FR8mastr]

I think some are not remembering the 1 big fact here CHQ is not giving up anything! They are GETTING 170's out the ying yang plus they are GETTING 190's as well. All the MDA pilots want is to keep flying the same AC they are in now until and only until they can get back to Airways. Then CHQ will be GETTING the remaing 25 170's as the mda folks evacuate them. As per the LOA91. So as it stands now the pilot as yet to be hired at CHQ will wait for upgrade a year longer. Not too bad as he probably at this point does not even have his commercial ticket yet.

 

[kngarthur]

I think some are not remembering the 1 big fact here CHQ is not giving up anything! They are GETTING 170's out the ying yang plus they are GETTING 190's as well. All the MDA pilots want is to keep flying the same AC they are in now until and only until they can get back to Airways. Then CHQ will be GETTING the remaing 25 170's as the mda folks evacuate them. As per the LOA91. So as it stands now the pilot as yet to be hired at CHQ will wait for upgrade a year longer. Not too bad as he probably at this point does not even have his commercial ticket yet.

What's a commercial "ticket"? How about an ATP idiot!

 

[FR8mastr]

Because he wont be old enough to get his ATP. Nice try junior why dont you come back when you have a clue.

 

[mullet]

Moron! Three things, most dear to a pilot's life--Sex, Seniorty, and then Salary! You mess with my seniorty, you better watch it@!

Is the J4J program already at CHQ? 0 out 3 ain't too bad.

 

[FlyingDawg]

Old Man Pilot,
Before the terms of "super senority, butts on the street, I dont owe anybody anything, they made the wrong choice and taking our jobs"

These are the questions you should be asking

1. If a CHQ pilot gets transfered/new hired to the REP certificate, will they have to go through REP indoc and some form of training?

2. Sign new 2 year $15,000 training contract for the new company?

3. If I go to REP do I have to resign my CHQ position?

4. .... can I bid back to CHQ? Seat lock?

5. .... and fail the training, am I able to go back to CHQ?
(Slim to none but still can happen of failing training)

6. .... what is my date of hire? Pay and vacation issues.
You are starting employment at another 121 certificate

7. .... does my accrued vacation go with me to REP?

8. .... does my accrued sick bank go with me?

9. What happens to my DOH for the travel pass?

10. Will I have some type of representation from the Teamsters if I go to REP?
Does REP even have a working agreement, it is a new certificate?

CHQ pilots should have these answers from management.
Just because it is in the CHQ contract, dont assume.

These are already answered in our contract. One seniority list for all three airlines. We are employed by RAH and work at the respective subsidiary. This is what our last contract was all about; controlling all the flying at our holding company! They can't farm it out to anyone. Just think how different things would be if the majors had the foresight to include this in their contracts.

 

[sunchaser]

Because he wont be old enough to get his ATP. Nice try junior why dont you come back when you have a clue.

For someone with so much experience, you don't seem to have a clue... Not everyone at Republic Airways Holdings is a young kid. This is my third airline and STILL very little PIC time. I'm at the bottom of this list trying to get the time I set out to get 7 years ago.. I have a lot of experience and DO NOT think I am better than any other pilot. Even these "young guys" at this airline. They were here FIRST and they should get there before me, that is the way the system works. I will do my JOB no matter how "lucky" that young Captain may be, that's what matters. I am not bitter at my new younger pilot group, but rather the punk a$$ management from my other airlines. I have now starting over at CHQ and am happy to be on THERE list. So everyone shut up and UNITE AND FIGHT management, NOT other pilot groups. Get on the bottom of the list or don't, I did.... No pilot is special or more desirving of anything. Management must sit in there big homes and laugh at how pilots act like 6 year olds in the sand box fighting over a bucket.

 

[FR8mastr]

You missed my point. What I was trying to say was with the number of pilots at CHQ and the number of AC coming they are going to be bringing people on to fill the spots, these people will be in all probability be young flight instructor types just getting into the industy. Being such they are probably young. No offense to anyone, we all were young and we all started somewhere. I just think some consideration should be given to the old high timers that have been abused for so long. Especially since the contract that allows all this growth at CHQ protects these pilots. by the way I am very junior at my airline.

 

[Jabwmu]

Last I heard Chq was hiring mostly 135 guys, charter, and other 121 pilots (ACA) to occupy the E-170. Most of the flight instructors are going to the 145. I guess most of the older military types don't want to come to a regional.

 

[sunchaser]

Point taken... The kicker to the mess in this industry is the idea of senority itself. It is ironic that pilots fight for it so hard for it, only to have it bit us in the a$$ when times are bad. I see senority as the more money a pilot makes for an airline, the more benifits he gets from it. ie upgrade, better sed. and more money. Problem is when an airline goes under, the pilots affected don't want to "start over" at the bottom of a new carrier. Most pilots, myself included, feel that our efforts at one carrier sould be taken into account at another. However the pilots at the other carrier see it as, I have been at this carrier longer and deserve more than the new guy. And as I see it, they are right. It is a double edge sword. We protect our senority at the carrier we are at, but expect another pilot group not to protect theirs when we come over. It will never happen, but a national senority list is the way to go. We should not be connected to our carrier, but to our profession. If another guy has been dlying longer than me, he should have more senority. We all have strips on our shoulders and all want the same things. As long as we flight for the colors on the aircraft instead of our profession, we will never move forward as one unified group... Just my thoughts, might be full of crap, but makes since to me.....

 

[FrustratedCFI]

It seems that alot of people have posted above without any concept of the real legal definitions of what is involved with Republic Airways Holdings buying aircraft from US Airways. The first distinction is that there is no Mid Atlantic. No certificate = No airline. The second is that Republic airlines is a start up cert/airline of Republic Airways Holdings. Third, all Republic Airways holdings flying is done by the CHQ pilot list per a binding letter to the parent (i.e. Republic Airways Holdings). Republic Airways Holdings is buying AIRCRAFT, not an airline, not a certificate, not a name or brand. As such we are not obligated to take A SINGLE PILOT from MDA(US Airways). Brian Bedford (CEO) has offered j4j under our previous letter authorizing j4j up to 32 aircraft. That is not required. I think he is doing it to save on training and hiring costs. If the pilot group at CHQ (yes CHQ as it is one master CHQ pilot list) accepts, then we will take half of the pilots from mda and staff the other half from CHQ. All of the people from MDA will go to the bottom of the CHQ master pilot list and 50% of them will be in the left seat.
The only way all of the pilots from MDA/USAirways would come to the CHQ master list is if the current J4J protocal was changed via ratification (vote) by the CHQ master pilot list. I can tell you that from my, albiet unscientific, survey this will not happen without an increase in the number of aircraft in the deal and then only as they come on property. We will not accept just a promise of future aircraft. Rant all that you want. Everything but my opinion stated in the last two sentences, and my mention of my guess as to BB's intentions, are facts.

 

[stb]

These are already answered in our contract. One seniority list for all three airlines. We are employed by RAH and work at the respective subsidiary. This is what our last contract was all about; controlling all the flying at our holding company! They can't farm it out to anyone. Just think how different things would be if the majors had the foresight to include this in their contracts.

Well the MDA/USAirways pilots had LOA 93 in there contract also.
Do you think this LOA 93 was not known by REP management before MDA was bought/ change of control? Why doesn't REP just say all MDA pilots can go to REP as staple? Why only 50%? I'm sure by this board 50% of the pilots will not go to REP if this is offered and this problem is solved.

The big prize isn't REP/CHQ for MDA pilots this is only a piece of the puzzle.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

You're kidding me right?

These are already answered in our contract. One seniority list for all three airlines. We are employed by RAH and work at the respective subsidiary. This is what our last contract was all about; controlling all the flying at our holding company! They can't farm it out to anyone. Just think how different things would be if the majors had the foresight to include this in their contracts.

I'm guessing you haven't been around long, so I'll be gentle. The majors DO have scope language in there contracts, it's just been relaxed to allow you to fly your pretty RJ. They had plenty of foresight, it's just that over the years the quality of the contracts has been severely eroded. Used to be that regionals couldn't fly anything bigger than a mid size turboprop... Were you born yet then?

Your quote sounds just like the US Airways pilots of the mid '90s; "Our flying will never go away! We have iron clad scope!" As I said before, those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it!

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

It seems that alot of people have posted above without any concept of the real legal definitions of what is involved with Republic Airways Holdings buying aircraft from US Airways. The first distinction is that there is no Mid Atlantic. No certificate = No airline. The second is that Republic airlines is a start up cert/airline of Republic Airways Holdings. Third, all Republic Airways holdings flying is done by the CHQ pilot list per a binding letter to the parent (i.e. Republic Airways Holdings). Republic Airways Holdings is buying AIRCRAFT, not an airline, not a certificate, not a name or brand. As such we are not obligated to take A SINGLE PILOT from MDA(US Airways). Brian Bedford (CEO) has offered j4j under our previous letter authorizing j4j up to 32 aircraft. That is not required. I think he is doing it to save on training and hiring costs. If the pilot group at CHQ (yes CHQ as it is one master CHQ pilot list) accepts, then we will take half of the pilots from mda and staff the other half from CHQ. All of the people from MDA will go to the bottom of the CHQ master pilot list and 50% of them will be in the left seat.
The only way all of the pilots from MDA/USAirways would come to the CHQ master list is if the current J4J protocal was changed via ratification (vote) by the CHQ master pilot list. I can tell you that from my, albiet unscientific, survey this will not happen without an increase in the number of aircraft in the deal and then only as they come on property. We will not accept just a promise of future aircraft. Rant all that you want. Everything but my opinion stated in the last two sentences, and my mention of my guess as to BB's intentions, are facts.

I think it is you that are a tad confused. These aircraft are operated on the US Airways certificate by pilots on the US Airways seniority list. Your pilot group is using a legal technicality to lock the MDA folks out of flying which is rightfully thiers. Would you be singing the same tune if the plan was to shift the A330's over to RAH? I'll bet you would. How about if RAH was going to sell some EMB-145s to another company to operate for them? Your tune would change entirely.

You are using the fact that the MDA pilots have not yet been able to ensure thier contractual scope protections to justify that not letting them onto the property is ok. It isn't. It is selfish and wrong, and smacks of what I am sure is your personal motto: "I've got mine, f*ck you."

All of this over 300 MDA pilots, a virtual drop in the bucket on your list. Sick... Just sick.

 

[kngarthur]

Point taken... The kicker to the mess in this industry is the idea of senority itself. It is ironic that pilots fight for it so hard for it, only to have it bit us in the a$$ when times are bad. I see senority as the more money a pilot makes for an airline, the more benifits he gets from it. ie upgrade, better sed. and more money. Problem is when an airline goes under, the pilots affected don't want to "start over" at the bottom of a new carrier. Most pilots, myself included, feel that our efforts at one carrier sould be taken into account at another. However the pilots at the other carrier see it as, I have been at this carrier longer and deserve more than the new guy. And as I see it, they are right. It is a double edge sword. We protect our senority at the carrier we are at, but expect another pilot group not to protect theirs when we come over. It will never happen, but a national senority list is the way to go. We should not be connected to our carrier, but to our profession. If another guy has been dlying longer than me, he should have more senority. We all have strips on our shoulders and all want the same things. As long as we flight for the colors on the aircraft instead of our profession, we will never move forward as one unified group... Just my thoughts, might be full of crap, but makes since to me.....

Have you thought about joining the communist party?

 

[kngarthur]

I think it is you that are a tad confused. These aircraft are operated on the US Airways certificate by pilots on the US Airways seniority list. Your pilot group is using a legal technicality to lock the MDA folks out of flying which is rightfully thiers. Would you be singing the same tune if the plan was to shift the A330's over to RAH? I'll bet you would. How about if RAH was going to sell some EMB-145s to another company to operate for them? Your tune would change entirely.

You are using the fact that the MDA pilots have not yet been able to ensure thier contractual scope protections to justify that not letting them onto the property is ok. It isn't. It is selfish and wrong, and smacks of what I am sure is your personal motto: "I've got mine, f*ck you."

All of this over 300 MDA pilots, a virtual drop in the bucket on your list. Sick... Just sick.

No! I think your sick, and I think it's selfish for MDA pilots to think that they have "super-seniorty"