Massive furloughs at Polar

[cfire]

So basically, Atlas MEC has a beef with the Polar MEC about things that occured in 2001.

I guess you didn't read the post or just what you wanted to. There have been many issues between us leading up to now, 2006. The Scab List issue is just one of them and was just a few weeks ago, not in 2001. That also affects Atlas guys trying to get jobs. Of course there have been many issues besides the forementioned.

Not keeping up on current events demeans your concern for your job and/or reflects your councils inability to communicate to it's membership. Judging from todays Polar VARS message 1 800 253 5671 probably the latter.

BTW, I'm not on the MEC. I'm just one of the worker bees trying to make it bearable despite the efforts of others (Polar, Atlas Management, AACS, and GSS).

AHHH....Perhaps if Polar reclaims the 200 or more flights a month that Atlas operates (for us) as an "alliance" then we would-not have to furlough!!!

Maybe if your MEC didn't screw up the grievance/arbitration on the "Alliance Agreement" we wouldn't have to fly them.

 

[Classicdriver]

AHHH....Perhaps if Polar reclaims the 200 or more flights a month that Atlas operates (for us) as an "alliance" then we would-not have to furlough!!!

Again, how is that the Atlas Crew members fault?

 

[Draginass]

I still don't get it. How are Atlas pilots responsible for the furloughes at Polar?

When Polar union leaders/membership start tossing around the "S" word, they darn well better have it clear-cut, defined, and officially sanctioned by ALPA. Otherwise they're going to get it back in spades. Sounds to me like the Polar guys were stupid, out-of-control, lost the war, and now want to shift the blame to someone else. They obviously did not understand the legal CBA ramifications of a sympathy strike, then wanted Atlas guys to violate the law because the Polar MEC couldn't think more than 5 minutes ahead and were desperate.

You don't go into a knife fight with Cato, with only a squirtgun. If Polar crews want to know why they're out of a job, go no farther than the Polar MEC.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Kerosene, actually, its gotten out of control to the point where it's become personal. The two MEC's don't like each other, period. There is no trust there. They then spread that downhill to those that will listen. Remember, AAWH does not have the "Spin" market cornered. As bitter as things are, I can see "Bobb" turning down an offer of help from anyone having to do with Atlas. He's got the average Polaroid blaming Atlas for the Polar furloughs. Please explain that one to me, in simple terms, please.

The bad news is, the junior guy always pays first. The good news, they'll be senior at the next airline.

I don't think cfire is a member of the MEC, just a very busy hardworking worker bee. He's seen all the things that have gone on in the first person. I've spoken to more than a few involved with trying to help Polar in different situations, and each time they got burned, and swore to never do it again.

You have your one reason to change attitude toward Atlas guys, my list is longer. I held out until the SBC list. That did it for me. My grudge is not with the Polaroids out there, its with the Polar MEC's tactics.

If I have any beef with Polaroids, its their lack of involvement. I just spoke to an FE (Friday) who knew nothing about the furloughs, then gave me crap for being informed. Something about being attached to Purchase with an umbilical cord. He pleaded complete ignorance of any lists and knew nothing of the actions by "Bobb" in the cooling off period and didn't care to know. This is not the first time I've run into this. It's a little scary.

Lastly, its the family's that really suffer thru the furloughs. I'm sorry it came to people losing their jobs. But, what was the intent of the section 8 filings by the Polar SBC? Dismissals. Fired. A little worst than furlough. They went after 160 Atlas pilots, most VERY innocent.

Hopefully you took the signals sent out by AAHW as a warning and got the resume up to date. The Polar MEC has said over and over again that it couldn't happen, even with a multitude of crews sitting at home and in hotels. Well it's happen.

As far as the FE is concerened, I am not surprised that he did not know about the furloughs, if I had not received a phone call from somebody that got it via e-mail on my off days I would not have known until Catos letter showed up via snail mail.

The point about the 160 list? I heard of it through the Atlas side, we (Polar pilots) never received anything about it, concerning it or even any hint of it. To this day I do not know who initiated it or when...nobody I know does either. My info came from one of your pilots on a layover. So I am not surprised that the FE had no knowledge either.

I think what we have is a very small group on both sides stirring the pot.

Personally I think the furloughs are the only way the company can figure out how to legally get rid of engineers since they are on our pilot seniority list and are senior to half the pilots. The transfer of 200+ polar flights to Atlas and having the Polar pilots "sit" reserve in $1000 a week hotels while Atlas crews are extended into overtime month after month (per conversations with Atlas friends) is a nice way to increase crew costs to an "unprofitable level" as stated by Ericson and Cato. It is simply another example of one side being pitted against the other, to the benefit of none. Yet with all the petty vindictivness going on as exampled in this thread, the leadership is too blinded to see it.

You make valid points and statements about why you feel the way you do, but you also realise what is happening, too bad many others are blinded with hatred to see the truck coming at them. (Both sides)

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I guess you didn't read the post or just what you wanted to. There have been many issues between us leading up to now, 2006. The Scab List issue is just one of them and was just a few weeks ago, not in 2001. That also affects Atlas guys trying to get jobs. Of course there have been many issues besides the forementioned.

Not keeping up on current events demeans your concern for your job and/or reflects your councils inability to communicate to it's membership. Judging from todays Polar VARS message 1 800 253 5671 probably the latter.

BTW, I'm not on the MEC. I'm just one of the worker bees trying to make it bearable despite the efforts of others (Polar, Atlas Management, AACS, and GSS).


Maybe if your MEC didn't screw up the grievance/arbitration on the "Aliance Agreement" we wouldn't have to fly them.

Oddly enough, many Polar guys do not know about the list you speak of, I heard from an Atlas guy, as far as others in aviation? Most know about the large number of "s" guys that Atlas had at the beginning (Mostly just the ones that carry a copy of the official "list", none I have ever talked to ever mentioned the current events(Nor do I). Not that anybody really cares, most know nothing more of Polar and Atlas than they fly 747's, that is if they have heard of them at all.

No this thing between senior Polar and Atlas crews is very localized and personal, the rest of the world does not care. Heck I fly here and I intentionally stay out of conversations relating to the "event" other than like I said here that I know about it. It is a personal fight that was going on before I got here.....and now it appears it will still be going on long after I am gone. Good luck with your feud, as with most things like it, it consumes both sides in the end with no winner.

 

[Classicdriver]

Oddly enough, many Polar guys do not know about the list you speak of, I heard from an Atlas guy, as far as others in aviation? Most know about the large number of "s" guys that Atlas had at the beginning (Mostly just the ones that carry a copy of the official "list", none I have ever talked to ever mentioned the current events(Nor do I). Not that anybody really cares, most know nothing more of Polar and Atlas than they fly 747's, that is if they have heard of them at all.

No this thing between senior Polar and Atlas crews is very localized and personal, the rest of the world does not care. Heck I fly here and I intentionally stay out of conversations relating to the "event" other than like I said here that I know about it. It is a personal fight that was going on before I got here.....and now it appears it will still be going on long after I am gone. Good luck with your feud, as with most things like it, it consumes both sides in the end with no winner.

Agreed. Jumpseated a couple times and was only asked about how the merger was going. Most crews have to many worries of their own to care about a couple small time cargo operators. There are rumours of the SBC Proposed Scab list being seen in some other cockpits, but just third and forth hand stories. Much like the stories that appeared during the strike. They became fact because they were repeated so many times, it must be true?

 

[Kruger Stellman]

K.S. Please tell me you aren’t serious? The Polar guys are not the angles you make them out to be. I have been around here long before they were on the property, and have heard and seen the animosity in numerous crew rooms and hotels.

W. Rider, Got awfully silent after you re-read your contract didn’t you? Enjoy your 1 month with pay. Vacation, I think not!!

Kruger

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

K.S. Please tell me you aren’t serious? The Polar guys are not the angles you make them out to be. I have been around here long before they were on the property, and have heard and seen the animosity in numerous crew rooms and hotels.

W. Rider, Got awfully silent after you re-read your contract didn’t you? Enjoy your 1 month with pay. Vacation, I think not!!

Kruger

Funny how the most venomous posts come from the senior Atlas guys huh?

This thread alone has 9 posts from senior Atlas guys taking joy in the furloughs of Junior Polar pilots. The one quoted here is nice huh?(enjoy your vacation!!) Still my favorite is the one about intentionally trying to do harm to the job prospects of furloughed junior guys.....ahh that is truly a classic in the aviation profession.

 

[Kruger Stellman]

K.S. The reference to the “paid vacation” is from a post on pprune from one of your fellow crewmembers, Whale Rider, (very verbal but very ill informed) who said he was looking forward to his paid vacation while on furlough, that would be part of his contract. Not all of us at Atlas are happy about the prospect of pilots on the street. However, you all made the bed. You had the chance to get on the bandwagon on more than one occasion. You just let your MEC (who by the way just got himself qualified on the 400 to protect his ass) sent you down the path. Let us not forget the fact of who bought whom, and the condition of Polar at the time of the sale. If Atlas had not bought Polar you would have been out of business 3 years ago.

 

[744]

Still my favorite is the one about intentionally trying to do harm to the job prospects of furloughed junior guys.....ahh that is truly a classic in the aviation profession.

And that list you guys are circulating of 160+ Atlas pilots who did nothing other than fly THEIR airplanes for the US Military, ACMI customers and even a Katrina relief mission while YOUR airplanes were parked, your flights not operating and your freight offices not accepting freight is exactly what? A little misunderstanding?

And the mysterious changes to the proposed LOA when Atlas was on the furlough hot seat were what? Yet another little misunderstanding?

For years you guys whine and sling mud, then expect the Atlas guys to fall on their swords for you. Sorry, life does not work that way. I know that I should feel sorry for you, but it is an effort. It would be easier if I felt some connection, but in years of trying I have managed to have only two (2) civil conversations with people from Polar—and one of them stiffed me with the bar bill.

Which raises a question--why won't your guys ever talk to Atlas crews? Are they afraid that your thought police will put their names on the "snake list"?


You guys have been badly lead. And you just relected the same gang.


And so it goes.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Let us not forget the fact of who bought whom, and the condition of Polar at the time of the sale. If Atlas had not bought Polar you would have been out of business 3 years ago.

Oh O.K., so that makes it OK to furlough the junior guys who were hired after that while Atlas is flying overtime to cover the Polar trips(210 is the number this month I believe)......I got it now, thanks for clearing that up for me. Not that Atlas pilots have anything to do with it, mgmt. call, but boy you sure are enjoying this huh?

#10 post..................


BTW, a quick run down of the list appears to show that no pre-buy out Polar guy will get furloughed(other than PFE's), which is of course good news for you, you get to continue your feud with the senior guys for many years to come!

 

[Kruger Stellman]

Don't know who you are 744, but I like the way you write!

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

And that list you guys are circulating of 160+ Atlas pilots who did nothing other than fly THEIR airplanes for the US Military, ACMI customers and even a Katrina relief mission while YOUR airplanes were parked, your flights not operating and your freight offices not accepting freight is exactly what? A little misunderstanding?

And the mysterious changes to the proposed LOA when Atlas was on the furlough hot seat were what? Yet another little misunderstanding?

For years you guys whine and sling mud, then expect the Atlas guys to fall on their swords for you. Sorry, life does not work that way. I know that I should feel sorry for you, but it is an effort. It would be easier if I felt some connection, but in years of trying I have managed to have only two (2) civil conversations with people from Polar—and one of them stiffed me with the bar bill.

Which raises a question--why won't your guys ever talk to Atlas crews? Are they afraid that your thought police will put their names on the "snake list"?


You guys have been badly lead. And you just relected the same gang.


And so it goes.

Again, how does this have anything to do with the junior Polar guys that are getting furloughed? They could not vote, nobody I know has ever seen the 160 list, and I talk to the Atlas guys all the time, how do you think I know about the 160 list and the massive amount of overtime you guys are flying to cover the Polar stuff while we sit around?

Thats 11 posts reveling in the demise of Junior mostly probie Polar pilots......lets do an even dozen shall we?

I can feel the love can't you? Boy nothing like a nice Atlas pep talk to put a spring in your step!!

 

[Classicdriver]

Again, how does this have anything to do with the junior Polar guys that are getting furloughed? They could not vote, nobody I know has ever seen the 160 list, and I talk to the Atlas guys all the time, how do you think I know about the 160 list and the massive amount of overtime you guys are flying to cover the Polar stuff while we sit around?

Thats 11 posts reveling in the demise of Junior mostly probie Polar pilots......lets do an even dozen shall we?

I can feel the love can't you? Boy nothing like a nice Atlas pep talk to put a spring in your step!!

Hey KS, not sure what your looking for here. As Atlas CM, we have nothing to do with the furlough. What do you propose we do about it? The reason junior guys are being furloughed is because that is how it is spelled out in your CBA. Junior guys and gals aways take the first hit.

Now if you want to find some blame, lets look at the options. First on all Polaroids list is the Atlas CM's. Tell me, what can I do to help you?

Next would be AAWH. You bet. But remember, Polar hurt the business with a strike that gained almost nothing over the offer on the third day of the cooling off period. "Bobb" had a vendetta to settle with Cato. It became personal. No matter what, you were gonna strike, because no way were you going to get a 26% raise. So as AAWH looks at who will suffer the reduction in the fleet, who would be your first choice if you were one of our MANY VP's. Easy choice.

And last would be your MEC. GOD forbid you question them. You might end up on another of their endless lists...the Snake list. You folks do like your lists. Beer for life list, snake list and the SBC list. Amazing. Ahh I digress. So what about your MEC? Any blame. The MEC were told over and over that they weren't the big money (revenue yes, income, no) at AAWH and constantly told you otherwise. And when things didn't shut down in fives days, as predicted, it wasn't a miscalculation on their part, it was those devilish Atlas crews flying your cargo. You notice, both MEC's always have someone else to blame things on. Cato's gotta be loving it.

The bottom line is your contract. All Polaroids love to talk about how great their work rules are. They are wonderful, but they were conceived when you were a pure scheduled carrier. Trust me, if a CM is happy with their work rules, it is an anchor around scheduling, marketing and managements necks. The response from Polaroids is scheduling and marketing should be able to deal with it. Well, they can't, so management is. And that leads us to Junior CM's being furloughed.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Hey KS, not sure what your looking for here. As Atlas CM, we have nothing to do with the furlough. What do you propose we do about it? The reason junior guys are being furloughed is because that is how it is spelled out in your CBA. Junior guys and gals aways take the first hit.

Classic,

You have missed my whole point. No where in this thread have I blamed Atlas crew members of anything.

In fact other than to start the thread with the furlough news, I did not even enter in to it until some Senior Atlas stooge advocated the intentional effort to try and prevent junior Polar pilots from being able to get a job.

Since then I have been blamed for, 1. An issue that happened 3 years before my arrival on property, 2. a "list" that I have never seen and only heard of through Atlas pilots, 3. Being responsible for a strike and strike related activities that occured while I was fired (Cato 42), 4. An LOA that occured before my arrival, 5. In general just being a bast$#d for being hired by Atlas Air to fly one of their 747's.....which happened to have a Polar name painted on it.

This list that you guys like to throw around? If it is so gawd awful prevailent, why the heck have I never seen it? The only mention of it in ANY Polar related Alpa stuff was on the web board(By a non MEC member), and that was to state that it would not be released until, and only if, there was evidence proven in an ALPA proceeding, which never happened. Now I do not doubt that somebody has some "list" out there, but we (junior boys) have never seen it, and you would think that if it were truly making the rounds and showing up in other airlines cockpits around the world on a regular basis that I would have run across a copy somewhere in a Polar airplane.

No I am just amazed at how many Atlas pilots are about to crap themselves with excitement at the prospect of a bunch of 2 year pilots are getting the boot........not exactly the poster children for a professional pilot group.

And the best part is that NONE of the pilots that you guys have a beef with are going anywhere....except to 400 school to crew the current and 6th 400 coming.

It also has to be said that it is very rare that I hear any talk about Atlas while at work, other than speaking of mgmt. and our own contract issues. From my point of view, this hate fest is very one sided. The simple fact is that most of the senior Polar guys do not find it interesting enough to speak about among themselves. This is not to say that there are not loud mouths on both sides, but so far in my personal experience in crew vans and hotels, the Atlas crew member has been the aggressor, just as it has been on this thread. I even had one lay into me about it one day.....and he was JUNIOR to me(by Polar/Atlas combined class date), hired 3 months after I was. To hear him tell it I personally screwed him over three years before we ever worked here!

Again, carefully note that I have not accused any Atlas pilot of anything having to do with our impending furlough(mgmt.s doing, using the two groups against each other), I only spoke of their joy in it. I have a feeling that already several are typing out an artful 12 and 13th post..........

P.S., Per your work rules statement, that is B.S., this has nothing to do with "restrictive" work rules, That is simply the excuse that mgmt is using. I spent 16 days last month on this "restrictive" contract.......mostly sitting on my a$$ in a hotel waiting on crew scheduling to let me fly something, while they burned $1100 a week to have me sit there plus my guarantee. On top of it my Atlas buds were being extended into their days off to fly Polar call signs on the very same day I was parked in a hotel at the VERY SAME CITY!!!!!!!!

 

[cfire]

K.S.

Is your council providing you any support or job help like the Atlas council did with their crews? Our council got pretty good at it. Every other time we turned around, aircraft and routes were being shipped over to Polar.

Has Polar's MEC said "Good luck guys" and that's it? Working with them in the past, I would say you were lucky to get anything. It took them a week after the company release just to make an announcement on the furloughs/terminations via VARS.

You plead ignorance of what happened so long ago. OK, what about the last couple of years? Did you have your head in the sand or someplace else just as dark and wet? I guess you just went fishing during the strike also. You have been around long enough to vote in that current MEC bunch at Polar so that is good enough for me. You must like what they have done or you have just been so complacent until your recent furlough and now you care.

Lets catch you up:

Head on over to this one thread HERE AT PPRUNE.org. That link goes to about the middle of current thread of ten pages. The one that had the Scab List has been pulled. So I guess you get to miss out on that. There are other Polar threads tossing the scab word around, but you'll have to find them via the search tool their.

Your MEC/Council in now Reaping what they have sown. They should be glad they were able to take advantage of all the misfortunes Atlas crews had endured. The shoe is now on the other foot. Was there any sympathy or cooperation given to the Atlas group when needed at any time other than when Bobb Henderson wanted support leading up to the strike. No, there wasn't.

Click through the whole Flash slide show ON THIS Page. It starts at the beginning after Polar got purchased to after the strike.

 

[weasel_lips]

Attention Atlas morons. You (2 or 3 on this board) are giving your whole airline a bad name.

You keep repeating your same propaganda over and over. We are familiar with it, thank you!

Gaining pleasure from people losing their job says volumes about your “character”.

At one time I was interested in joining the ranks at Atlas. Now that I see what a bunch of clowns you are, that has changed.

 

[sgu]

Weasel,

From the other side of the fence, I feel the same about Polar. This situation will play itself out painfully. Good Luck.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

K.S.

Is your council providing you any support or job help like the Atlas council did with their crews? Our council got pretty good at it. Every other time we turned around, aircraft and routes were being shipped over to Polar.

Has Polar's MEC said "Good luck guys" and that's it? Working with them in the past, I would say you were lucky to get anything. It took them a week after the company release just to make an announcement on the furloughs/terminations via VARS.

You plead ignorance of what happened so long ago. OK, what about the last couple of years? Did you have your head in the sand or someplace else just as dark and wet? I guess you just went fishing during the strike also. You have been around long enough to vote in that current MEC bunch at Polar so that is good enough for me. You must like what they have done or you have just been so complacent until your recent furlough and now you care.

Lets catch you up:

Head on over to this one thread HERE AT PPRUNE.org. That link goes to about the middle of current thread of ten pages. The one that had the Scab List has been pulled. So I guess you get to miss out on that. There are other Polar threads tossing the scab word around, but you'll have to find them via the search tool their.

Your MEC/Council in now Reaping what they have sown. They should be glad they were able to take advantage of all the misfortunes Atlas crews had endured. The shoe is now on the other foot. Was there any sympathy or cooperation given to the Atlas group when needed at any time other than when Bobb Henderson wanted support leading up to the strike. No, there wasn't.

Click through the whole Flash slide show ON THIS Page. It starts at the beginning after Polar got purchased to after the strike.

I started to type another long post, but it will serve no purpose other than to have you post links to items that happened prior to the furloughees getting here, so I will refrain.

For the record, I was not pleased when I heard about the 160 list, stupid move that served no purpose. At most only 2 or 3 names should have appeared, but that is based on stories that I did not see. Past that the Judges order clouded the subject.

I did have a conversation a couple of days ago that I found interesting, suffice it to say, I think the Atlas side is going to see what the Polar side is seeing very soon too. If that does happen, you have my condolences.

I will say this though, Cato is laughing all the way to the bank at the way he has pitted the two airlines against each other. Neither of you will win, I can guarantee that.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Gaining pleasure from people losing their job says volumes about your “character”.

At one time I was interested in joining the ranks at Atlas. Now that I see what a bunch of clowns you are, that has changed.

You know, that is the very reason that I was dragged into this thread in the first place. The bickering between the two groups is expected, after all it is a merger, they are never pretty. I ignore 99% of what I hear due to it.

The genuine glee that the Atlas boys are getting out of a bunch of families losing a livelyhood, that is the truly sad part. You are right it does speak volumes about their character.

If it makes you boys feel better, IDID IT, I SCREWED YOU ALL, I got hired by Atlas to fly a 747 with a Polar paint job............boy am I a ba$tard or what?