Massive furloughs at Polar

[B-atch]

"Also I would estimate that around 60 to 70% are furloughees from major carriers. (My class represented AA,UAL,DAL,USAir, alone) Your genorosity torward pilots that were not even on the property during your beef with Polar at your last contract is greatly appreciated. Maybe we can return the favor once we are recalled to our respective majors."[/quote]


Very well said...Some people forget how small this world actually is.

 

[furloughfodder]

kerosene,

I don't think we have to worry about returning any favors. Atlas has destroyed their reputation over the last year, they are considered the S word by everyone I know at the Majors, including my buds at FedEx who walked the line with us and witnessed Atlas guys flipping off Polariods on the picketline during the strike as they crossed our lines.

Not to mention there are quite a few Atlas guys on the master scab list for prior offenses.

Why do you think they come on this board and continue to bring up the strike over and over again, and keep posting links to that silly flash website? It is all a desperate (albiet too late) attempt to get back in the good graces of the rest of the Airline community.

Polar went on strike, and got a pay raise, DESPITE the Atlas crews. Polar is the ONLY ALPA pilot group to go on strike AND get a raise in the last 4 years.

What has Atlas done in the last few years? You can try to blame Polar for your crappy contract all day long, but in the end, it is your group that signed off on it...quickly I might add.

By the way, none of this is directed at anyone hired at Atlas in the last 2 years...and I would do anything I could to help any of those guys in the future...and I don't think anyone really cares about your Jobs committe guy and his 65,000 web hits.

 

[cfire]

Some info for your High Horseness:
Other than the engineers, most of the Polar guys furloughed will be the ones hired by Atlas and trained in joint classes with Atlas crew members. Polar and Atlas crews trained together for the first two weeks until they were split off.

I'm very familiar with that, I work at Atlas.

Additionally nobody knew where they were going (Polar/Atlas) until called for class dates. For the past couple of years the interview was for BOTH airlines conducted by BOTH CP's.

I Know this too. This does remind me of another thread I read here or on Pprune.org. Once indoc was over, everyone gets split up to Polar or Atlas for company specific training. Reports from the training center reflect that new hires on the Polar side acclimated quickly with their new Polar peers.

Also I would estimate that around 60 to 70% are furloughees from major carriers. (My class represented AA,UAL,DAL,USAir, alone) Your genorosity torward pilots that were not even on the property during your beef with Polar at your last contract is greatly appreciated. Maybe we can return the favor once we are recalled to our respective majors.

You really are new. The beef was instigated and continually reinforced by Polar over and over again long before your hiring to present.

Actually, I'm being unfair. A large number of the Polar group doesn't have a clue of what has actually happened since the purchase of Polar, except what was spun down the non-accountable back room communication chain used by the Polar MEC. I've seen it. Back when we (Atlas and Polar) would actually talk in bars around the world. The "Deer caught in headlights look" was very common when certain subjects were broached.

I'm sorry you got furloughed from the majors and Polar. I've been there too many times myself. Slumming with us has probably been really bad for you. Luckily you didn't have to surrender your major airline seniority number and will depart back for the majors when they recall you.

For some of us that didn't make the majors cut or will, we have to live down here. So we have to make the best of this cr@p pile we can. For most of us, we hit this level and not many statistically go onto the majors percentage wise.

Hopefully the Polar reputation will not stay with you when you are recalled to the majors and the hardest thing to decide will be what kind of Starbucks coffee you will have at the next stop.

In the mean time. Keep believing your MEC. Look where it has gotten you so far.

 

[cfire]

Polar went on strike, and got a pay raise, DESPITE the Atlas crews. Polar is the ONLY ALPA pilot group to go on strike AND get a raise in the last 4 years.

Atlas is the ONLY cargo airline in ALPA history to conduct a job action in support of another cargo carrier. If you prove me wrong, let me know with the facts so that I can correct the ALPA National guy that told me this.

What has Atlas done in the last few years? You can try to blame Polar for your crappy contract all day long, but in the end, it is your group that signed off on it...quickly I might add.

Got me there. I guess we should have tested the Polar MEC willingness to scab us. Verifiable by a third party to Atlas/Polar BTW.

As far as signing off. If I remember correctly, MEC Bobb Henderson tried signing off on your most recent one 36 hours into the cooling off period. Cato saw that he had him over a barrell and required more. That pretty much set the stage for the rest of your screw ups. Had to work uphill just to get back what was on the table before the cooling off.

By the way, none of this is directed at anyone hired at Atlas in the last 2 years...and I would do anything I could to help any of those guys in the future...

I would hope the guys hired in the last two years treat that as most commitments given by Polar, as an empty one.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I'm very familiar with that, I work at Atlas.
I Know this too. This does remind me of another thread I read here or on Pprune.org. Once indoc was over, everyone gets split up to Polar or Atlas for company specific training. Reports from the training center reflect that new hires on the Polar side acclimated quickly with their new Polar peers.
You really are new. The beef was instigated and continually reinforced by Polar over and over again long before your hiring to present.

Actually, I'm being unfair. A large number of the Polar group doesn't have a clue of what has actually happened since the purchase of Polar, except what was spun down the non-accountable back room communication chain used by the Polar MEC. I've seen it. Back when we (Atlas and Polar) would actually talk in bars around the world. The "Deer caught in headlights look" was very common when certain subjects were broached.

I'm sorry you got furloughed from the majors and Polar. I've been there too many times myself. Slumming with us has probably been really bad for you. Luckily you didn't have to surrender your major airline seniority number and will depart back for the majors when they recall you.

For some of us that didn't make the majors cut or will, we have to live down here. So we have to make the best of this cr@p pile we can. For most of us, we hit this level and not many statistically go onto the majors percentage wise.

Hopefully the Polar reputation will not stay with you when you are recalled to the majors and the hardest thing to decide will be what kind of Starbucks coffee you will have at the next stop.

In the mean time. Keep believing your MEC. Look where it has gotten you so far.

You really don't have a clue what the hell I was talking about do you? You are so juiced up over the demise of Polar and your own personal little war between the senior members of the two groups that you can no longer think beyond that.

As far as Polar and Atlas not speaking around the world......I guess you are "the" guy that sits by himself in ICN and RMS and the rest of the joint hotels huh? The rest of us (Polar and Atlas) talk all the time, Last trip out a large group (about 8) of both Polar and Atlas guys took it upon ourselves to make sure we put a hurting on the beverage stash of a local establishment.

I truly feel sorry for you, If you take a corporate merger and let it consume you to the point of taking pride in the fact that pilots are being furloughed and that an Atlas Pilot would intentionally try to cause those furloughees to not be able to find work....you must have a miserable life indeed.

Good luck to you in your personal purgatory, maybe you will see me out on the road before my furlough date, I'll be one of the ones not sitting by myself in the corner afraid to speak to a guy in an AAWWH leather jacket for fear that he may be an evil Polar/Atlas pilot.

As far as my time here? It has been great, I had planned on staying if the merger went with no problems. But as it stands I guess it is off to the next airplane. It has been fun though!

Concerning your cr#p pile statement.......maybe you should actually talk to a Polar guy sometime and find out about their contract that they struck for, I find it compares with a major's contract fairly well considering the unscheduled nature of the flying. After all, you guys are up to bat this year in the contract department.

I will very much miss flying for Polar when the axe comes. Sorry if that disturbs you.

 

[furloughfodder]

For some of us that didn't make the majors cut or will, we have to live down here. So we have to make the best of this cr@p pile we can. For most of us, we hit this level and not many statistically go onto the majors percentage wise.

Hmmm, wonder why?

 

[cfire]

Hmmm, wonder why?

Your one to speak. Where do you work, Polar? We already new that though.

Looks like we have both risen to our level of incompetence aviation wise.

You really don't have a clue what the hell I was talking about do you? You are so juiced up over the demise of Polar and your own personal little war between the senior members of the two groups that you can no longer think beyond that.

Actually, I wasn't even thinking about merger or seniortiy. Obviously this is your concern and not mine. Maybe you are just that new here or focused on your own immediate problem.

To catch you up on events:

My most recent concern is about the listing of my fellow pilots to the world by the Polar MEC (or I should say by his appointee) as scabs by a public release of a non-ALPA sanctioned list Polar came up with. They even filed Article 8 charges and did it wrong. The board wouldn't hear the charges. Now they can't even clear their name because the Polar MEC can't count the number of days that have gone by so that the board would hear the cases. Maybe the Polar MEC intended that. I'll save that for lawsuit being filed by that group. That's what happens when you do a sympathy work action for Polar. Help and then get bitten (again) for your efforts. Of course you can get that run down at AT THIS WEB SITE to see just what your group has done.

On another note, I don't remember one sympathetic word from any Polar crewmember at the bars or on any of the boards over Atlas furloughs that benefited Polar with transfered A/C. I do remember a lot of "hey, I'm going to upgrade" and "I'm moving up the list fast now" from Polar guys. I do remember not one furloughed Atlas guy getting hired at Polar during that time and Robin H. (your neg. chairman) changing a cross over agreement after it was negotiated between us.

So when you spout that Polar has been unfairly and harshly treated, maybe you should look back at your group's own actions.

Good luck to you in your personal purgatory, maybe you will see me out on the road before my furlough date, I'll be one of the ones not sitting by myself in the corner afraid to speak to a guy in an AAWWH leather jacket for fear that he may be an evil Polar/Atlas pilot.

Actually I'm one of the guys at the bar talking and listening to the latest BS your guys have been told within your councils communications channel. I don't hide anywhere and Polar crewmembers definitely don't scare me. I have never had a problem expressing my opinion face to face. Unfortunately, I do have to sit in my room doing union work a lot more than I would like. Answering emails and compiIing info submitted from our group in the field. I have Polar's MEC/group and Atlas Management to thank for that.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Your one to speak. Where do you work, Polar? We already new that though.

Looks like we have both risen to our level of incompetence aviation wise.

Actually, I wasn't even thinking about merger or seniortiy. Obviously this is your concern and not mine. Maybe you are just that new here or focused on your own immediate problem.

To catch you up on events:

My most recent concern is about the listing of my fellow pilots to the world by the Polar MEC (or I should say by his appointee) as scabs by a public release of a non-ALPA sanctioned list Polar came up with. They even filed Article 8 charges and did it wrong. The board wouldn't hear the charges. Now they can't even clear their name because the Polar MEC can't count the number of days that have gone by so that the board would hear the cases. Maybe the Polar MEC intended that. I'll save that for lawsuit being filed by that group. That's what happens when you do a sympathy work action for Polar. Help and then get bitten (again) for your efforts. Of course you can get that run down at AT THIS WEB SITE to see just what your group has done.

On another note, I don't remember one sympathetic word from any Polar crewmember at the bars or on any of the boards over Atlas furloughs that benefited Polar with transfered A/C. I do remember a lot of "hey, I'm going to upgrade" and "I'm moving up the list fast now" from Polar guys. I do remember not one furloughed Atlas guy getting hired at Polar during that time and Robin H. (your neg. chairman) changing a cross over agreement after it was negotiated between us.

So when you spout that Polar has been unfairly and harshly treated, maybe you should look back at your group's own actions.

Actually I'm one of the guys at the bar talking and listening to the latest BS your guys have been told within your councils communications channel. I don't hide anywhere and Polar crewmembers definitely don't scare me. I have never had a problem expressing my opinion face to face. Unfortunately, I do have to sit in my room doing union work a lot more than I would like. Answering emails and compiIing info submitted from our group in the field. I have Polar's MEC/group and Atlas Management to thank for that.

So basically, Atlas MEC has a beef with the Polar MEC about things that occured in 2001. How does that have any bearing on a group of 100 pilots....50+ of who were not eligible to vote during the strike period (and were fired during that time), and another 40 or so that were not on property when the events that you bring up happened? In effect you are saying..."that dirty SOB MEC, they screwed me, I screwed them, we all screwed each other so lets take it out on a group of junior pilots that were hired by Atlas and had nothing to do with it! Yeah, that will teach them! Lets cut off a resource that some may need to feed their families.

Up until now I never held any malice torward any Atlas crewmember, after all, mgmt. rarely if ever asks our opinion on anything they do. But since you have stated that you are a member of the Atlas MEC AND that you advocate the intentional damaging of furloughed ALPA members chances at employment to further your own bias and vindictive nature, well, that truly is pathetic. One of my Atlas classmates recently commented to me about the quality of Captians he flew with over there, "Sure are more than our fair share of pr%#ks over here" At the time I thought nothing of it..........Laughed it off as normal airline stuff, a bad month with one of the 1% that every airline has.....beginning to think differently now thanks to you. Learn something new every day huh?

You have my condolances, You have many many more problems in life than I do, and I am the one getting furloughed.

 

[Classicdriver]

Kerosene, actually, its gotten out of control to the point where it's become personal. The two MEC's don't like each other, period. There is no trust there. They then spread that downhill to those that will listen. Remember, AAWH does not have the "Spin" market cornered. As bitter as things are, I can see "Bobb" turning down an offer of help from anyone having to do with Atlas. He's got the average Polaroid blaming Atlas for the Polar furloughs. Please explain that one to me, in simple terms, please.

The bad news is, the junior guy always pays first. The good news, they'll be senior at the next airline.

I don't think cfire is a member of the MEC, just a very busy hardworking worker bee. He's seen all the things that have gone on in the first person. I've spoken to more than a few involved with trying to help Polar in different situations, and each time they got burned, and swore to never do it again.

You have your one reason to change attitude toward Atlas guys, my list is longer. I held out until the SBC list. That did it for me. My grudge is not with the Polaroids out there, its with the Polar MEC's tactics.

If I have any beef with Polaroids, its their lack of involvement. I just spoke to an FE (Friday) who knew nothing about the furloughs, then gave me crap for being informed. Something about being attached to Purchase with an umbilical cord. He pleaded complete ignorance of any lists and knew nothing of the actions by "Bobb" in the cooling off period and didn't care to know. This is not the first time I've run into this. It's a little scary.

Lastly, its the family's that really suffer thru the furloughs. I'm sorry it came to people losing their jobs. But, what was the intent of the section 8 filings by the Polar SBC? Dismissals. Fired. A little worst than furlough. They went after 160 Atlas pilots, most VERY innocent.

Hopefully you took the signals sent out by AAHW as a warning and got the resume up to date. The Polar MEC has said over and over again that it couldn't happen, even with a multitude of crews sitting at home and in hotels. Well it's happen.

 

[B-atch]

AHHH....Perhaps if Polar reclaims the 200 or more flights a month that Atlas operates (for us) as an "alliance" then we would-not have to furlough!!!

 

[cfire]

So basically, Atlas MEC has a beef with the Polar MEC about things that occured in 2001.

I guess you didn't read the post or just what you wanted to. There have been many issues between us leading up to now, 2006. The Scab List issue is just one of them and was just a few weeks ago, not in 2001. That also affects Atlas guys trying to get jobs. Of course there have been many issues besides the forementioned.

Not keeping up on current events demeans your concern for your job and/or reflects your councils inability to communicate to it's membership. Judging from todays Polar VARS message 1 800 253 5671 probably the latter.

BTW, I'm not on the MEC. I'm just one of the worker bees trying to make it bearable despite the efforts of others (Polar, Atlas Management, AACS, and GSS).

AHHH....Perhaps if Polar reclaims the 200 or more flights a month that Atlas operates (for us) as an "alliance" then we would-not have to furlough!!!

Maybe if your MEC didn't screw up the grievance/arbitration on the "Alliance Agreement" we wouldn't have to fly them.

 

[Classicdriver]

AHHH....Perhaps if Polar reclaims the 200 or more flights a month that Atlas operates (for us) as an "alliance" then we would-not have to furlough!!!

Again, how is that the Atlas Crew members fault?

 

[Draginass]

I still don't get it. How are Atlas pilots responsible for the furloughes at Polar?

When Polar union leaders/membership start tossing around the "S" word, they darn well better have it clear-cut, defined, and officially sanctioned by ALPA. Otherwise they're going to get it back in spades. Sounds to me like the Polar guys were stupid, out-of-control, lost the war, and now want to shift the blame to someone else. They obviously did not understand the legal CBA ramifications of a sympathy strike, then wanted Atlas guys to violate the law because the Polar MEC couldn't think more than 5 minutes ahead and were desperate.

You don't go into a knife fight with Cato, with only a squirtgun. If Polar crews want to know why they're out of a job, go no farther than the Polar MEC.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Kerosene, actually, its gotten out of control to the point where it's become personal. The two MEC's don't like each other, period. There is no trust there. They then spread that downhill to those that will listen. Remember, AAWH does not have the "Spin" market cornered. As bitter as things are, I can see "Bobb" turning down an offer of help from anyone having to do with Atlas. He's got the average Polaroid blaming Atlas for the Polar furloughs. Please explain that one to me, in simple terms, please.

The bad news is, the junior guy always pays first. The good news, they'll be senior at the next airline.

I don't think cfire is a member of the MEC, just a very busy hardworking worker bee. He's seen all the things that have gone on in the first person. I've spoken to more than a few involved with trying to help Polar in different situations, and each time they got burned, and swore to never do it again.

You have your one reason to change attitude toward Atlas guys, my list is longer. I held out until the SBC list. That did it for me. My grudge is not with the Polaroids out there, its with the Polar MEC's tactics.

If I have any beef with Polaroids, its their lack of involvement. I just spoke to an FE (Friday) who knew nothing about the furloughs, then gave me crap for being informed. Something about being attached to Purchase with an umbilical cord. He pleaded complete ignorance of any lists and knew nothing of the actions by "Bobb" in the cooling off period and didn't care to know. This is not the first time I've run into this. It's a little scary.

Lastly, its the family's that really suffer thru the furloughs. I'm sorry it came to people losing their jobs. But, what was the intent of the section 8 filings by the Polar SBC? Dismissals. Fired. A little worst than furlough. They went after 160 Atlas pilots, most VERY innocent.

Hopefully you took the signals sent out by AAHW as a warning and got the resume up to date. The Polar MEC has said over and over again that it couldn't happen, even with a multitude of crews sitting at home and in hotels. Well it's happen.

As far as the FE is concerened, I am not surprised that he did not know about the furloughs, if I had not received a phone call from somebody that got it via e-mail on my off days I would not have known until Catos letter showed up via snail mail.

The point about the 160 list? I heard of it through the Atlas side, we (Polar pilots) never received anything about it, concerning it or even any hint of it. To this day I do not know who initiated it or when...nobody I know does either. My info came from one of your pilots on a layover. So I am not surprised that the FE had no knowledge either.

I think what we have is a very small group on both sides stirring the pot.

Personally I think the furloughs are the only way the company can figure out how to legally get rid of engineers since they are on our pilot seniority list and are senior to half the pilots. The transfer of 200+ polar flights to Atlas and having the Polar pilots "sit" reserve in $1000 a week hotels while Atlas crews are extended into overtime month after month (per conversations with Atlas friends) is a nice way to increase crew costs to an "unprofitable level" as stated by Ericson and Cato. It is simply another example of one side being pitted against the other, to the benefit of none. Yet with all the petty vindictivness going on as exampled in this thread, the leadership is too blinded to see it.

You make valid points and statements about why you feel the way you do, but you also realise what is happening, too bad many others are blinded with hatred to see the truck coming at them. (Both sides)

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I guess you didn't read the post or just what you wanted to. There have been many issues between us leading up to now, 2006. The Scab List issue is just one of them and was just a few weeks ago, not in 2001. That also affects Atlas guys trying to get jobs. Of course there have been many issues besides the forementioned.

Not keeping up on current events demeans your concern for your job and/or reflects your councils inability to communicate to it's membership. Judging from todays Polar VARS message 1 800 253 5671 probably the latter.

BTW, I'm not on the MEC. I'm just one of the worker bees trying to make it bearable despite the efforts of others (Polar, Atlas Management, AACS, and GSS).


Maybe if your MEC didn't screw up the grievance/arbitration on the "Aliance Agreement" we wouldn't have to fly them.

Oddly enough, many Polar guys do not know about the list you speak of, I heard from an Atlas guy, as far as others in aviation? Most know about the large number of "s" guys that Atlas had at the beginning (Mostly just the ones that carry a copy of the official "list", none I have ever talked to ever mentioned the current events(Nor do I). Not that anybody really cares, most know nothing more of Polar and Atlas than they fly 747's, that is if they have heard of them at all.

No this thing between senior Polar and Atlas crews is very localized and personal, the rest of the world does not care. Heck I fly here and I intentionally stay out of conversations relating to the "event" other than like I said here that I know about it. It is a personal fight that was going on before I got here.....and now it appears it will still be going on long after I am gone. Good luck with your feud, as with most things like it, it consumes both sides in the end with no winner.