Majors vs. Beliefs

[Juvat]

Well I'm a new hire Christian...

They're hiring now too? Where do we get an app?

 

[Movin' on up!]

Good one Juvat! I must admit that was funny. Anyway, I can see the tone has lightened up a bit. I have flown for 135 companies....it is not as if I refuse to do my share of work. If anything, I have had to work more to cover for those who give up their Saturday to cover for me. That, to me, is worth the effort. I don't mind putting in long days, I go the extra mile for anyone, and I cheerfully do my job. We must admit that those of us who are still flyinh in this day and age are pretty lucky or blessed. I know many out there without work. I fly and have flown on Thanksgiving, Christmas day and New Years day. To me, my Saturdays are more important than any other holiday, so I happily work those holidays not falling on Saturday. I would not mind flying on the back side of the clock. For example, I would not mind flying red-eye flights or cargo for a 121 carrier that flies when everyone else is sleeping. So in essence, I am not trying to get out of work...I will gladly do my share and extra if needed, I just have this particular day for worship.
Clyde....I am marathoner, so I watch what I eat carefully. If my crew meal has pork, I wouldn't eat it. And not just for religious reasons either. Maybe one of these days, you'll see a guy walking down the terminal with all his gear and a huge bag of fruit and vegetables....that will probably be me. Make sure to say hi!

 

[RogerMOSA]

Movin' - Your case reminds me of when me and seven other single guys remained in the sandbox for 2 weeks with our squadron's hanger-queen at the end of a six month deployment. We were all chosen to stay while our married superiors, peers and juniors went home. They went home to their wives, friends, dogs, comfy houses, whatever...... We were pissed....it was BS. Why, when we are suppossed equals in the eyes and operation of our company(US military), do we get shafted by somebody else's extra baggage. Recall the old phrase, "The navy didn't issue you a wife." But in our case, we signed on the dotted line(and accept that we did). Therefore we did as we were told and made the best of it.

In your case, I assume you would be signing some sort of seniority based contract. It sounds like you are willing to go the extra mile to "make up" for the company scheduling you around your sabbath. However, I'm sure that when you miss flying a sabbath that your seniority cannot hold, you are screwing some dude out of a hard-earned and rightfully-deserved Saturday. Maybe that dude is missing his daughter's birthday, a college reunion or maybe he just wanted to pick his toes on the couch while watching football.

What I am saying is that until you can bid and hold your Sabbath, fly it. I'm sure most guys wouldn't care or mind your proposed arrangement with the company, but I'm sure there is one dude that would take offense to his seniority being trumped by your religious restrictions. If he's out there, you gotta respect him.....you owe him that per the contract you signed.

If this is unnacceptable, I think you may be in the wrong profession or at least looking for some heartache with your co-workers.

RM

 

[100LL... Again!]

People do not understand what the protection against discrimination REALLY is about.

The law is there to prevent someone from discriminating against you BECAUSE you hold a certain religious belief. It is NOT there to provide license for you to force others to conform to YOUR religion.

For example, you can't refuse to hire someone because they are Christian.

Fair enough. Suppose, though, that Christian felt that their religion compelled them to dress like Charleton Heston in "The Ten Commandments".

Or suppose that a very religious christian worked at a hotel in Vegas, but refused to tell guests where the Casino was, because gambling is a sin?

It is incumbent on an employer not to discriminate on an employee BASED ON their religion.

If that person's religion makes them unable to do the job, too bad.


Suppose if somone invented a way for paraplegics to control an airplane. Suppose it would cost several million per aircraft.

Is it fair for us to demand that carriers install this system on every aircraft so that everyone can have 'equal opportunity'? Even if it ended up meaning that the airline would lose money and some pilots would be furloughed? Or does the "greater good" principle apply? In other words if we can reasonably accomodate paraplegic pilots, we do so.

But if an economic hardship would result, we cannot ask a company to suffer financial ruin so that a small percentage can have their shot at a cockpit.

This becomes the defining issue - does an employer owe everyone a shot at ta job no matter how costly?

The original idea behind equal opportunity was to prevent discrimination simply because of the person's status ALONE.

ESPECIALLY race, where a person's skin color can in no way be considered to affect their fitness for a job.

The same is true with gender. Now if the job consists of lifting 100lb boxes, there are many man, and probably even more women who cannot do the job.

If I refuse to hire a puny guy because he can't lift 100#, that is okay, right? But if I refuse to hire a woman, that is discrimination?

 

[100LL... Again!]

RogerMOSA brings up a great point - what does one's religion say about the use of that faith as a crowbar to force something out of someone else's hand?

 

[Juvat]

In other words if we can reasonably accomodate paraplegic pilots, we do so.

I'm not a paraplegic, but I recently lost the use of my ding-a-ling in an unfortunate incident with a cup of boiling water. I'm going to demand reasonable accomodations from my future employer. For starters, I'm going to need a ding-a-ling sling. I might also need special uniform pants.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Perhaps you can also petition your employer to only pair you with flight attendants that think that "size doesn't matter." You can argue that it is necessary for your psychological well-being.

Personally, I am going to petition my employer for FA's with poor eyesight and bad judgement.

 

[dash8driver]

dash8driver....I sense some anger issues with you. Better have a talk with someone about that.

you need to get your senses recalibrated. no anger here, just in disbelief like most everyone else here...

According to dash8driver...
Its like saying that I don't fly with gay pilots because that would encroach on my rights. Huh? What does it matter? They have their life and if it bothers you, well that is too bad. I have my beliefs, and if they bother you, too bad.

when did i say anything about gay pilots? first your senses are going, and now your reading..

yours and anyone else's beliefs dont bother me...re-read my previous post a little more carefully. i only said it bothers me if it encroaches on someone elses rights. or are you saying that its "too bad" if you encroach on others rights and freedoms?

btw, you never answered my questions about the SDA rules regarding hospitals, etc. i asked because i dont know, you might know, and the answer you're looking for might be in there somehere. please calm down.

suggestion: apply for a job, be honest. take the job if offered. bid for your schedule as best you can. if you cant get saturdays off, try to trade with others. most companys allow trip trading. if you have to end up working on a saturday for some reason until you are more senior to bid it, you either have to make peace with god later, or resign. this is something only you can decide. i would also suggest talking to your local religous leader about you being required to work on those days temporarily to persue your career and happiness. your religous leader will have far better answers and advice for you than any pilot or company will... since he is the authority on where your limits lie.

 

[Clyde]

Good one Juvat! I must admit that was funny. Anyway, I can see the tone has lightened up a bit. I have flown for 135 companies....it is not as if I refuse to do my share of work. If anything, I have had to work more to cover for those who give up their Saturday to cover for me. That, to me, is worth the effort. I don't mind putting in long days, I go the extra mile for anyone, and I cheerfully do my job. We must admit that those of us who are still flyinh in this day and age are pretty lucky or blessed. I know many out there without work. I fly and have flown on Thanksgiving, Christmas day and New Years day. To me, my Saturdays are more important than any other holiday, so I happily work those holidays not falling on Saturday. I would not mind flying on the back side of the clock. For example, I would not mind flying red-eye flights or cargo for a 121 carrier that flies when everyone else is sleeping. So in essence, I am not trying to get out of work...I will gladly do my share and extra if needed, I just have this particular day for worship.
Clyde....I am marathoner, so I watch what I eat carefully. If my crew meal has pork, I wouldn't eat it. And not just for religious reasons either. Maybe one of these days, you'll see a guy walking down the terminal with all his gear and a huge bag of fruit and vegetables....that will probably be me. Make sure to say hi!

I hear ya. I work out a lot and am very athletic, so I avoid pork. Not because of religion, but because of nutrition. I'll be sure to say hi, we can compare bags. BTW, you did see the intentional humor in my above post?? My apologies if it was misinterpreted.

 

[Ty Webb]

I'm not a paraplegic, but I recently lost the use of my ding-a-ling in an unfortunate incident with a cup of boiling water. I'm going to demand reasonable accomodations from my future employer. For starters, I'm going to need a ding-a-ling sling. I might also need special uniform pants.

You, Sir, you are killing me!

 

[Movin' on up!]

100LL... Suppose you make a good argument...suppose you can come up with credible scenarios...suppose...agh, you get the point. MY point though, is that I am not suing, or trying to force anything on any company or individual. I am not asking any one to comform to my religious beliefs in an unreasonable way. Personally, I don't get much out of Christmas, but I enjoy the time off to get together with family and friends. But if you do and you want Christmas off, is it too much for you to ask for the day off and then have me work for you instead? Am I going to miss my time with family? Is it a hardship for me? Yes, but it is not unreasonable. Do you see what I am saying? I have talked to some airline pilots who love flying on the weekends because it gives them the time off during the week to have another business or because they have custody of the kids during the week. So my question is whether this is something that can be worked out or not. Lets say...10 pilot slots for those who have different beliefs. Any more than that and you have to bid like everyone else. I am not opposed to working Sundays, holidays, red-eye flights and all that. I am curious as to how Alaska Airlines dealt with this. I know that they made allowances for people of different beliefs and it worked out for them.
Clyde, I saw the sarcasm! And lets not compare bags...yours will be the better looking one since mine will be the messed up one with all the hate and anger graffitti from other pilots
Dash8driver....senses recalibrated. I now sense some disbelief issues...need to talk to someone about that I know a good shrink...however, he doesn't work on Saturdays The gay pilot thing, well, I couldn't come up with anything else, so let's see....change it a Kerry supporting pilot. How about that? Its all good guys, I ain't trippin'. Happy flying ya'll.

 

[turn&pull]

I am a retired SDA who attended WWC. PM me if you like and we can chat about this. For now my short answer would be...an airline career is out of the question for you if you will not work on Saturday. The only other Adventists I know in the business work on Saturday or worked on Saturday at some point in their career with that airline.

Good Luck,
T&P

 

[pipers]

I know of people who keep certain days sacred who are Captains in the majors and regionals. How did they do it? I don't know and I can't get a hold of anyone to ask. That is why I asked you all.[/i]

Senority. They didn't always get those days off. I am LDS and have accepted the fact that I will have to work on Sundays sometimes. It will actually be a nice break somedays.................

 

[ivauir]

But if you do and you want Christmas off, is it too much for you to ask for the day off and then have me work for you instead? Am I going to miss my time with family?

You are missing the point here. When you are too junior to get the weekends off you are also too junion to get Christmas off. So offering to work Christmas doesn't work - you already are. I have worked weekends Thanksgiving, Christmas and new years for two years at SWA. It will take at least 6 months and maybe another year to get the days I want off. There is no weekday you can offer me to trade so you can have the weekend off - I want the weekend off. I absolutly respect your devotion to your religion. But why should my quality of life suffer for your devotion? The problem you face is that when you are junior you have nothing to offer in exchange for weekends off because your schedule blows. Once you get a little senority you can wheel and deal and get at least some of what you want (at least at SWA). But until you get the senority to hold what you want there are no guarantees.

I'm sorry that no one can offer you the answer you want to hear. Is there any allowance in your religion for working on the sabbath at all? What if you were doing everything in your power (other than turning down the job) to get the sabbeth off? Because if that is the case then I think you could make it work. It would not take too long to hold weekday reserve here at SWA, it just wouldn't be instant.

Best of luck.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Movin-


As always, there is nothing wrong with asking to make these arrangements, but you have to realize that the flight s must go, and what happens if no arrangement can be made on a particular day. What d oyou do then.

You mention bidding.

While this may work after building some seniority with a company that has a computerized preferntial bidding system, there may be no procedure to accomodate this type of trading system.

You obviously can't ask them to institute it for you alone right when you start, so your only option would be to start working there, work saturdays when you must, and begin to try to negotiate such a system.

Be warned, many other pilots will see this as an attempt to get special treatment, and you may be unpopular because of it.

I think there are two realistic options:

Fly for an airlline and work asturdays until you have enuogh seniority, then do not upgrade until you can hold the same schedule as captain.

or

Get a non-airline flying job that can accommodate you.

 

[Movin' on up!]

Well that does it...I'm filing my lawsuit next week (KIDDING.) Ya'll recognize me when I am flying for your company...I'll be the one with the beat-up flight bag, gloating about my Saturdays off while eating fruit and vegetables from my crew meal. Thanks for all responses, especially for the calm, professional ones. As for the other ones, chill out, that is why I am ASKING before I look into anything... I think I'll start my own airline....I'm sure United, Delta or American have a few spare airplanes parked around the desert somewhere. Maybe I could be the SWA feeder? Any of you high pay airline pilots willing to invest? C'mon, we all know you guys are rolling in it!

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Any of you high pay airline pilots willing to invest? C'mon, we all know you guys are rolling in it!

Hey I'm game! Lessee.......(rummages through pockets)......after paying bills........kids dentist trip.....not covered by insurance.........(figuring on calculator)........carry the 3........subtract for increased gas prices..........Here ya go, after careful consideration and considerable thought I can come up with $6.28........thats enough right?!

 

[J32driver]

$6.28.... who gave YOU the raise? I want one!

 

[Juvat]

I will invest the millions I'm going to make from my "I boiled my tally whacker off" lawsuit.

 

[Movin' on up!]

All money, from whatever sources....are good.
Juvat...since we know what your...uhm, problem is, I'll make Director of training for all flight attendants. J32 Driver....sounds like you are a covetous one, so you can be Chief Financial Officer.
Kerosenesnorter...since all you have left is $6.28, this leads me to believe that you already work for peanuts...therefore, you can be the company's first FO! I'll be CA, since I already know how to just sit there and do nothing while being paid the big bucks.
Later!