Majors vs. Beliefs

[cathal]

And now back to your regularly scheduled thread...
Hello again Movin',
I spoke to a law specialist about you and he basically re-iterated what I told you earlier on pg. 2.
Here's a re-summary. If your request causes the company to spend more money (i.e extra postion or overtime) you will not meet the reasonabilty test. If you are misleading on your application about your ability to work when scheduled, the company may/will be able to fire you.
Any of these options may be challenged in court. However, the precedent setting case in this area was set by a court finding for United Airlines, not for the pilot. This is the ruling used to decide whether or not the request for religious days off is reasonable in almost every new challenge.
Once again, good luck with your endeavors. I remember being taught to give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to give to God what is God's.

 

[fam62c]

I find the part about a lawsuit against an airline in this matter interesting. I'm not sure what airline was involved in the lawsuit but I'm pretty sure at a unionized carrier the only recourse you have is grievance/arbitration and any lawsuit would be redirected to this avenue. An arbitrator would have to rule from a contractual point of view and I doubt that the contract allows someone to chose not to work certain days. Would the contract supercede religious beliefs or vise versa?

The only thing I could see would be if an APPLICANT for a job could make the argument that they were not hired because they couldn't work certain days as a condition of their religion and therefore were discriminated against based on religious beliefs. The question is where should religious beliefs take precedence over reasonable job requirements? How accomadating should any company have to be? What if someone's religion required them to dress a certain way that prevented them from wearing the uniform? What if a religion required a "fast" and the pilot was fatigued and unsafe to fly; should there be discipline? This is a very intersting issue from a legal standpoint.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Speaking of religion, I guess being a Zion Coptic or Rastafarian is not compatable with aviation. Given their sacred herb ritual. What about the Santerians????

You will notice that I was careful to not say "Religion" in my response to Movin. There are many religions on this planet and virtually all of them have some item or practice in them that make them incompatible with various jobs.

Most people who truly want to do a certian profession will find a way around their personal "Faith" to do what they want.

Airlines are what they are. They are a 24/7 service industry. If Movins personal beliefs are incompatible with the airline operational perameters that is Movins problem, not the airlines. Movin is well aware of what is required of a professional pilot in the airline industry or he/she would not have asked the question.

There are professions that do not agree with some peoples beliefs, plain and simple. You cannot very well be a Trooper for a State Highway patrol along I-95 if you are a traditional Quaker and refuse to drive a motor vehicle. Should we change the laws so that anyone driving through eastern PA has to park their car and drive a Horse and Buggy? Silly isn't it.

You can be sure that if and when the airlines are forced to give preferential days off to a specific religion, I will be forming my fishing religion very shortly thereafter. After all, it will be against my religion to do anything else on Saturday and Sunday except sit on a boat while fishing, unless its raining then I will be required to watch Football and drink beer.

Movin is well aware of what the profession requires. He either comes to grips with it and makes his faith work with the requirements, or he find another job that is more compatible with his belief.

 

[Heathen]

Kerosene,

I agree with you. But to be honest, since I posted right after you, I hit the "Quote" button instead of "Post", that's how that happened.
And as far as the fishing and drinkin' beer on the boat, Preach on Brother K....
You'll probably have more converts than you could handle, including me....

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I agree with you. But to be honest, since I posted right after you, I hit the "Quote" button instead of "Post", that's how that happened.
And as far as the fishing and drinkin' beer on the boat, Preach on Brother K....
You'll probably have more converts than you could handle, including me....

Thats the beauty of the religion!!!!! The more converts the bigger the "Church" that we can afford to buy!!!

I really like that "Church" that Hatteras builds, 50 feet long with Diesel power and a full bait prep station with ice maker and DVD entertainment cent.......errrrr I mean multimedia prayer station.

 

[Lynn78]

Dear MOU,

My husband and I are Jewish and he is a pilot. We too have had to integrate the lifestyle of a pilot and our needs to be together for religious holidays and other important events. To be honest with you, this is not something that only Jews face. This is a problem that Christians, Muslims and even family men encounter. Airlines run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. In order to get off your special days you need to put in your time, bid around it and cross your fingers. When I married my husband I knew that there were going to be holidays, birthdays and anniversaries that he would miss. We work together to make all of the time we have together special. For you to think or even ask that you should receive these days off without putting in your time is offensive. Airlines run on a senority basis. Get your time, Get on with an airline and get your senority, then you can have off Shabbat and the Jewish holidays off.

My husband and I spoke of your post in great detail. He tells very few people that he is Jewish in the airline industry. One of the reasons is people like you who think that being Jewish entitles them to special treatment.

 

[Sun Devil 2000]

Maybe you could hire a Shabbat Goyum?

 

[Ty Webb]

Dear MOU,

My husband and I spoke of your post in great detail. He tells very few people that he is Jewish in the airline industry. One of the reasons is people like you who think that being Jewish entitles them to special treatment.

I agreed fully with your post, right up until this part. I have flown with plenty of Jewish pilots and several 7th Day Adventists. . . . much of the flying was on weekends, and I never heard any griping, period.

 

[crashpad]

Same here. Good folks, all of them. I like to point out to my Jewish counterparts as we fly into the sunset.... "Look, the Mesiah IS coming! You were right after all."

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

What the?

I'm sure I'll step on a few toes here, so I’m sorry in advance. I'm a fairly right winged Christian, but I'm also realistic. First of all let’s clear up the "working on the Sabbath" issue. That is from the Old Covenant, which was the Law, but because Jesus died for our sins, we are not held to that Law anymore. The problem is that a lot of people hold what the Old Covenant says as literal. You have to be intelligent enough to understand that Jesus or whatever (G)god you decide to worship would never want you to risk getting fired by not working on whichever day your religion decided was the "Sabbath". Remember, when you filled out the application for your current job, more than likely, there was a section asking if you are willing to work evenings, holidays and/or every day of the week. I'm assuming you checked "yes" to all of these since you got your current job. Employers include questions such as that on the first page of their applications to try and weed out the problem applicants who are likely going to cause scheduling conflicts later on. Remember, airlines don't owe you a job just because you're qualified and competitive. They're running a business and making money is number one priority to them. An airline is a very schedule sensitive industry and there is no doubt that you would be fired for missing a trip (unless you were deathly ill) while on probation. This is such a competitive industry right now, I feel that you have less than a snowballs chance in he11 of getting an airline job if you let your interviewers know about you not working certain day(s) because of a religious belief. Lastly, is the fairness issue. How is it fair that you get a certain day off each week because of a particular belief that you have? Remember, religion is Man Made. How about if I came up with some belief and called it my religion and then told my airline I will now be "off" on Saturdays because it's my Sabbath. If I sued the airline for discrimination, probably some Liberal Judge will rule in favor of me and grant my day off. How is that fair to my fellow pilots who have worked hard to move up the seniority list in hopes of having a certain schedule with certain days off, then here I come getting "special treatment" right off the bat.
To me, this leads to probably the biggest problem in America today; people who file frivolous lawsuits and actually win. From the lady who sued McDonald’s for millions and won because she spilled hot coffee all over herself, to judges who rule in favor of these outrageous medical lawsuiits which drive our healthcare insurance through the roof, to burglars who trip over a skateboard in the dark while burglarizing your home and sue you because they broke their ankle in your house. “Movin' on up”, I’m not saying you personally are going to sue your future airline, but this is how lawsuits get started…somebody thinking their “rights” are being trampled on in some way. As “100LL” said, “We are becoming a nation where the whining, greedy "needs" of the minority are considered to be an excuse to abrogate the rights of the majority. Also, Movin' on up, you mentioned in your last post that you have your beliefs and if it bother's me, too bad? Well, I agree; it does not bother me until it affects me. It affects me when I'm the senior pilot and I get called in to fly on a weekend to cover for your lazy a$$ because your religion says you don't have to work. So why should I have to be inconvenienced to accommodate you?
You're right, the Constitution entitles you to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. All I have to say is that you better count your blessings that you even have a good job to begin with these days.

But to answer your question without belittling you, I'm sure some companies have developed a way of working around situations like this, but only because they've been threatened by lawsuit, owned by a Christian group (like ChickFilA is closed on Sunday), or trying to meet some quota by hiring a person with a minority spiritual belief that is out of the norm. Otherwise, what is in it for the company when they can hire somebody who will jump at the chance to fly 24/7 and after a gruling 4 day trip, come back and say "thank you and may I have another"! Anyway, the best of luck to you. It’s late I’ll stop rambling. Good luck to you.

 

[Juvat]

Its funny that the most peaceful and prosperous countries in the world do not have strong religious beliefs.
Marty

Would you care to provide some examples? For starters, show me a country more peaceful and more prosperous than the United States of America.

 

[Corona]

What is the real issue here? Is everyone thinking they would have to do time-and-a-half to cover for MOU? I don't think so. MOU has not stated a desire to get out of work; merely to observe customs of faith. It seems such a little thing to get upset about. If you saw MOU walking through the terminal w/flight bag to cover time lost to observing sabbath, you'd just think it was one of your buds going to work.

What's the difference?

C

Sol R, sorry, you pushed a button with the McDonald's coffee lawsuit comment. Here comes the afterburner:

The woman you dismiss had third degree burns from McDonald's coffee on her genitalia. This required reconstructive surgery. McDonald's had had over 700 complaints that their coffee was too hot. For your enlightenment, it is physiologically impossible to drink boiling water/coffee.
Yes, she did win millions in pain and suffering in her initial judgement, but that was reduced to 400K on appeal. My guess is the jury was fairly pi$$ed at McD's callousness towards their customer's safety.

So, for you skeptical gents, here's an experiment to try at home: Pour some boiling water on the tip of your manhood. Make sure it's hot enough to separate the skin from the tissue underneath. Make sure enough skin is boiled off to require reconstructive surgery. Then you'll feel as frivolous as that poor woman.

Would you do it for $400,000?

I wouldn't.

 

[Clyde]

What happens if your airline agrees to work with you on your schedule, but you discover pork products as part of your crew meal?


(sarcasm noted)

 

[RightBettor]

I would recommend getting a job flying "traffic watch." This is most likely going to be a Monday - Friday gig, and you can observe your religious commitment. Besides, imagine how senior you'd be after 20+ years on the job.

Sure it may not pay much (yet it is possible that you could become a well-known radio personality in your city and make more money), but remember your first priority is to your religion and the rewards that will come for eternity. Worldly goods will not do you any favors in the hereafter.

 

[TonyC]

Sol R, sorry, you pushed a button with the McDonald's coffee lawsuit comment. Here comes the afterburner:

It's doubtful your afterburner will impress anyone around here. Everyone knows you gotta boil some water to make coffee. Complaining that coffee is hot is simply ludicrous. She spilled the coffee in her lap - - tragic, to be sure, but hardly the fault of McDonalds.

Why didn't she sue Hamilton Beach or Waring or Bunn or whoever manufactured the brewer that McDonalds and 99% of the rest of the restaraunt industry uses to brew coffee?

She was the clumsy one - - she was the only one at fault. Thanks to the ridiculous legal system and the IGNORANT jurors, we all pay the price for her mistake.


[/rant]


.

 

[Juvat]

Here comes the afterburner

Afterburner? More like a sophomoric rant.

By the way, I stuck my ding-a-ling in a cup of boiling water just like you said. Can I sue you now?

 

[Mooseflyer]

By the way, I stuck my ding-a-ling in a cup of boiling water just like you said. Can I sue you now?

 

[Corona]

Afterburner? More like a sophomoric rant.

By the way, I stuck my ding-a-ling in a cup of boiling water just like you said. Can I sue you now?

Sorry if my facts come across sophomorically. If you'd rather believe the conventional wisdom interpretation of the "Coffee Incident", feel free.

Sue me for melting your fireman? Sure; have a nut...

 

[TonyC]

Sorry if my facts come across sophomorically. If you'd rather believe the conventional wisdom interpretation of the "Coffee Incident", feel free.

Sue me for melting your fireman? Sure; have a nut...

Those were supposed to be facts? I'm sorry, I took those remarks to be your "afterburner" rant. Since we're presenting them as facts, let's adjust the accuracy a bit, shall we.

For your enlightenment, it is physiologically impossible to drink boiling water/coffee.

You imply here that she was served boiling coffee. She was not. The McDonalds coffee was served at 180 degrees for optimal taste, based on recommendations of coffee consultants and industry groups that say hot temperatures are necessary to fully extract the flavor during brewing. The boiling point for pure water at sea level presure, as I'm sure you know, is 212 degrees. The boiling point for water filled with impurities, and for coffee, is much higher. The coffee was not boiling.

Yes, she did win millions in pain and suffering in her initial judgement [sic], but that was reduced to 400K on appeal.

In the first place, there was no award of millions for "pain and suffering." The 12 geniuses decided on compensatory damages of $200,000, which they reduced to $160,000 after determining that 20% of the fault belonged with Mrs. Liebeck for spilling the coffee.

The "millions" you refer to came from punitive damages. Mrs' Liebeck's lawyer, who coincidentally had sued McDonalds over hot coffee before, suggested that McDonalds be punished for "willful, reckless, malicious or wanton conduct" to the tune of one to two days of company-wide coffee sales, which he estimated to be $1.35 million a day. The jury settled on $2.7 million.

The reduction in penalty came not from appeal, but from the judge who presided over the case. We can at least give him credit for a scintilla of common sense - - HE reduced the punitive damages award to $480,000.

There was no appeal - - both parties agreed to a settlement that was further reduced from the judge's figure.



Wanton, callous, willful? McDonalds serves BILLIONS of cups of coffee. A billion cups of coffee a year. That's billion with a "B."

That's 1,000,000,000 cups of coffee a year. That's 1 with nine zeros, if you're counting. (It's nine zeros if you're not counting, too. )

In the past 10 years, 10,000,000,000 cups of coffee served piping hot.

In all of those 10,000,000,000 cups of piping hot coffee, they have received only 700 complaints of coffee burns. That's less than one hundred thousandth of a percent of the coffee served. "Willful, reckless, malicious or wanton conduct"?!?! Poppycock!

 

[Paul R. Smith]

Well I'm a new hire Christian at xyz airlines...I can't work on Thanksgiving, Christmas, New years and all weekends, and my faith only allows me to fly daytrips...The only overnight my faith allows me to do is MSY but it has to be over 18 hours because I can only sleep in a hotel in the french quarter after I have drank beer for at least 6 hours straight with a bunch of topless coeds.IF any of this is a problem please consult my lawyer at 555-1212.


The whole idea of religious types getting preference in a seniority based system is absurd. Get another job bible thumpers.