MAJOR Upheaval

[magpie5331]

Comparing an airline pilot to a doctor? Right. Give me a break guys. For every flying airline pilot there are 5 other pilots waiting to do the same job. Probably for a more reasonable wage also. I'm not sure what everybody's spending habits are, but 80 or 90 K's a year would be a liveable wage in all but most areas.

Difficult job? My 10 year old nephew has enough coordination from playing x-box that he could fly modern transports. That guy who flies over my house at midnight 5 days a week carrying checks in a baron has a tough job, and is probably one hell of a stick because of it. Feel you deserve it because you have "paid your dues"? I think that is true with most professions.

Sorry guys, I have alot of airline friends, but they have no egos and feel fortunate to fly for a living. There are alot of pilots out there, and no one is "more special" or "more deserving" than another. No one stuck a gun to your head and said "be a pilot or else." United was not created to give pilots jobs, it was created to be profitable.

There you go, I'm sure I'm going to get hit more than an Iraqi missile battery, but felt it was time for reality, only an opinion, of course.

Best of luck through all this.

 

[StopNTSing]

Comparing an airline pilot to a doctor? Right. Give me a break guys. For every flying airline pilot there are 5 other pilots waiting to do the same job.

...and at virtually every medical school in the US I'm sure there are AT LEAST 5 applicants for every student accepted. Many have the desire, far fewer have the motivation, attitude, and persistance to succeed.

Probably for a more reasonable wage also. I'm not sure what everybody's spending habits are, but 80 or 90 K's a year would be a liveable wage in all but most areas.

Is that all you strive for? A liveable wage? In this world you will only ever get what you ask for...not a penny more.

Difficult job? My 10 year old nephew has enough coordination from playing x-box that he could fly modern transports.

Oh please, not that silly comparison. If only stick & rudder were all it took! Even you should appreciate that by now. Let's see your nephew handle a night approach to a high-density airport, weather in the area, possible holding (and a potentially iffy fuel situation), and a passenger that has just lost conciousness in the cabin. The ability to manage that potential minefield safely and comfortably for the passengers, as well as cost-effectively for my company is why professional pilots earn every penny we are paid.

That guy who flies over my house at midnight 5 days a week carrying checks in a baron has a tough job, and is probably one hell of a stick because of it. Feel you deserve it because you have "paid your dues"? I think that is true with most professions.

Sorry guys, I have alot of airline friends, but they have no egos and feel fortunate to fly for a living. There are alot of pilots out there, and no one is "more special" or "more deserving" than another. No one stuck a gun to your head and said "be a pilot or else." United was not created to give pilots jobs, it was created to be profitable.

There you go, I'm sure I'm going to get hit more than an Iraqi missile battery, but felt it was time for reality, only an opinion, of course.

That guy in the baron was me ten years ago. I "paid my dues." When you've paid yours, then your opinions may actually be viewed with some credibility on this topic.

Best of luck through all this.

And to you as well.

 

[Publishers]

What is pay for

You may be missing the point here as to what a ceo does and where his responsibility is.

Your job is to fly an aircraft, safely and comfortably to its destination. For that you get compensated a wage.

The CEO is there to guide the ship (company) from its current position to another.

Let's say that tomorrow morning, LEO finds a way to produce the expected amount that the shareholders want and it requires no pilots at all. He fires you. You feel pain but he may get a bonus.

Unfortunately there are occassions when the steps a ceo takes are contrary to what is good for you or his employees. Nevertheless, that is what he is paid for by the owners.

Should the United CEO be expected to take hits when he was brought in to fix the airline from a job that paid just fine where he was?

 

[llowwelll]

I so badly did not want to give Magpie the satisfaction of a reply to such obvious flamebait but I just couldn't resist.

Comparing an airline pilot to a doctor? Right. Give me a break guys.

Yes, I think there are several similarities between doctors and airline pilots. Doctors graduate from college, go to 4 yr's of medical school, and then enter a residency of varying lengths before they are eligible to begin really reaping the rewards of their profession. Military pilots graduate college, go to a year of pilot training (longer I hear for Navy), and then on to advanced training for varying lengths of time. Then, constant training and upgrades on the line before their 8-yr military commitment is up and they can seek civilian employment. Civilian pilots have a tough road to hoe though I am not nearly as familiar with that process.
A friend of mine that I graduated from high school with finished his residency last year in Portland, and finally just became board-certified as an oncologist in Seattle. That whole process took him nine years after graduating from college. Similarly, I am just now finishing up my commitment to the AF, a process which has taken just under ten years from college graduation until now.
Another similarity is that a LOT of high-quality people are drawn to become doctors and a LOT of high-quality people are drawn to become pilots by the large salary down the road. Not everyone...but a lot of them. What drew my friend through that whole process was partly the money and the same thing is partly what has drawn me to try to become an airline pilot.

For every flying airline pilot there are 5 other pilots waiting to do the same job.

In addition to what StopNTSing said on this statement, I would also say that I doubt there would be five people lined up for every job if there was no possibility they would ever earn more than $60 or $70K as an airline pilot and the people that were lined up for that kind of money would not be near the caliber of person (on average) as the folks who fly for the major airlines today. Right now, there are a lot of people lined up for those jobs because we all still think there will be a recovery and wages will return to some kind of satisfactory level. I can virtually guarantee you that if all of us out there knew we would never have a chance to make some pretty decent money as an airline pilot, that a lot of people currently pursuing airline careers would abandon the chase. A lot of folks right now would keep trying because of the time and effort they have already sunk into the process. Very few new high quality people would be drawn to the field. Of course, some people, the ones who truly love to fly, would hang in there no matter what.

I'm not sure what everybody's spending habits are, but 80 or 90 K's a year would be a liveable wage in all but most areas.

That's really kind of irrelevant. I could probably live for about $15K a year if I had to and so could you or anyone else here. The issue to me is what kind of salary is going to draw high-quality people to become airline pilots.

Difficult job? My 10 year old nephew has enough coordination from playing x-box that he could fly modern transports.

To begin with, I think most people would agree that on average, being an airline pilot is an easy job...when everything is going well. Like I said in my previous post, that's not what airline pilots are paid for. Also, your ten-yr old nephew probably actually has enough manual dexterity in his hands and fingers to perform brain surgery. That doesn't mean anything really. He doesn't have the experience, background, maturity, judgement, knowledge, etc to be either an airline pilot or a brain surgeon. I wouldn't want him operating on my mother or flying my sister around in a big jet. Would you?

Feel you deserve it because you have "paid your dues"?

If you read my post here, and I think most of us would agree, no one "deserves" to be paid more than the market will bear. I think if the market understood the dangers posed by underpaying airline pilots, it would demand higher wages for pilots. It took only three terrorist incidents to scare a good chunk of the flying public away from the airlines and directly impact their bottom lines. How many pilot-error-type accidents that resulted from low-paid pilots committing incompetence or baffoonery would it take to make a similar impact and remove public confidence in the skill of airline pilots?

United was not created to give pilots jobs, it was created to be profitable.

That's a pearl. Who gave you the idea that UAL might have been created to give pilots jobs?

Best of luck to you Magpie.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Quote:
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Comparing an airline pilot to a doctor? Right. Give me a break guys. For every flying airline pilot there are 5 other pilots waiting to do the same job.
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...and at virtually every medical school in the US I'm sure there are AT LEAST 5 applicants for every student accepted. Many have the desire, far fewer have the motivation, attitude, and persistance to succeed.
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Maybe there is something to that - we could radically restrict the admissions to flight schools to drive up the pay rates. If you want to be grounded in reality, this is the only thaing that would work from a supply-and-demand perspective.

 

[HA25]

Comparing an airline pilot to a doctor? Right. Give me a break guys. For every flying airline pilot there are 5 other pilots waiting to do the same job. Probably for a more reasonable wage also. I'm not sure what everybody's spending habits are, but 80 or 90 K's a year would be a liveable wage in all but most areas.

Difficult job? My 10 year old nephew has enough coordination from playing x-box that he could fly modern transports. That guy who flies over my house at midnight 5 days a week carrying checks in a baron has a tough job, and is probably one hell of a stick because of it. Feel you deserve it because you have "paid your dues"? I think that is true with most professions.

Sorry guys, I have alot of airline friends, but they have no egos and feel fortunate to fly for a living. There are alot of pilots out there, and no one is "more special" or "more deserving" than another. No one stuck a gun to your head and said "be a pilot or else." United was not created to give pilots jobs, it was created to be profitable.

There you go, I'm sure I'm going to get hit more than an Iraqi missile battery, but felt it was time for reality, only an opinion, of course.

Best of luck through all this.

Do us all a favor, and stick to being a CFI... apparently you don't need the money. And apparently you have not (yet) accumulated enough flight time in big and fast airplanes to know that things get pretty busy and intense at times in this "easy" job, and you have 30,50,70 or 400 passengers all depending on your experience to land safely.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Difficult job? My 10 year old nephew has enough coordination from playing x-box that he could fly modern transports.
Best of luck through all this.

We all know pointing the airplane in the right direction is the easy part of the job. It's all the other stuff that requires a great deal of responsibility. Signing for the keys to a multi million dollar flying machine and being sure it gets where it has to at the right time and managing all the many mechanical, natural and human variables that are involved is what really earns a paycheck.

 

[magpie5331]

Since you all keep ripping on the flight time, I just wanted to add that I borrowed magpie's name to post. I'm her D.O, 91 and 135, with about 8500 hours, most in corporate jets and turboprops. We consistantly fly into high density airports, at night, and yes, even with weather around. And alot of it is single pilot in the turboprops (80's vintage) with a guy in back tapping you on the shoulder asking where the ice is. I think we have all been there, done that, so we can save the war stories for the chicks in the bar. It doesn't seem to work anyway! I don't think the job is that tough.

Anywho, none of this was meant as a personal attack, however I just found this site and have reached my limit of airline pilots complaing about management and money. There are alot of pilots and not many CEO's, and believe it or not, they are working to save the airline and your jobs. They deserve every penny they get, I'm sure that is NOT an easy job right now. Congress is chewing on a $3 billion dollar aid package for you guys now, while we in GA are left sucking wind. That should cheer you all up.

Just be happy for once guys, especially if your still flying!

Please don't rip on magpie if she posts somewhere, just tell her that her boss is a #$^&.

See ya!

 

[Ty Webb]

[Originally posted by magpie5331
[And alot of it is single pilot in the turboprops (80's vintage) with a guy in back tapping you on the shoulder asking where the ice is. I think we have all been there, done that, I don't think the job is that tough.

As a former 135/91 jet PIC I have been where you are, and I would say that you are exactly where you should be- thrashing around in a King Air with some clown tapping you on the back during a critical phase of flight.

There are alot of pilots and not many CEO's, and believe it or not, they are working to save the airline and your jobs. They deserve every penny they get,

No one begrudges them being paid . . . for performance. You won't see too many SWA, Jet Blue or AirTran guys complaining about their CEO's right now, but if you think pilots don't have a legitimate gripe about Wolff getting $35 mil while sending USAirways into bankruptcy and wiping out their retirement fund, or Mullin getting $8 million while DAL loses over a billion dollars this year and has over 1000 pilots furloughed, then you need to have your head examined.

Sounds like you are a disgruntled corporate guy who is delighting in the chance to get a swipe in at some airline guys right now . . . pretty small of you. I feel sorry for Magpie, sounds like she's got a really great job, working for someone like you.

Just be happy for once guys, especially if your still flying!

You too. Have fun . . . by the way- your boss left you a little present in the potty . . . . try not to drag your tie in it this time, will ya? Now get going- you've got a 20 hour day tomorrow!

 

[Hannibal]

Major Upheaval

Dear Magpie,


A true "professional" does not discredit, in any way, the relative professionalism of his chosen field of endeavor.

Furthermore, from your comments, I gather that you might not yet have had the opportunity to see firsthand exactly how deep the extraction of ones skills and experience can run in the arena of an airline pilot.

This is no game. Hopefully you will soon come to better apppreciate the nature of the arena you are now in. And in doing so perhaps you will better understand why our services are really quite a bargain at any of the pre-9/11 major pay scales.

Hannibal

 

[HA25]

Dear Mr. DO

It doesn't surprise me that you feel this way. I doubt that anything can change your mind...

However, I have to ask... what's an 8500 pilot with tons of PIC Turbine doing flying small, low wage airplanes? Usually my observation is that most have tried, and failed to get hired into a good flying job, and therefore have turned bitter against their chosen profession and can do no more than achieve a chief pilot or DO job at a small mom and pop check or 135 outfit.

If the shoe fits, then please wear it and leave us alone.

BTW, what do you pay that girl to work your radios? $12,000/year or is she getting paid with flight-time????

 

[CRJ puppy]

Hear, hear Ty!

 

[Cardinal]

I never said pilots were OVER PAID! I was pointing out that when your compensation affects the companies ability to make a profit, then their might be a problem.

According to my back-of-the-napkin calculation every pilot at United could have worked for FREE last year, completely volunteer labor, and the airline would STILL have lost an unsustainable $300-400 Million!! Now how the fark is that the pilot's problem? That points to issues that are strictly the domain of management, as specifed in the collective bargaining agreement, no less.

 

[HA25]

What we all seem to forget is that people aren't flying today like they were pre-9/11... the problem isn't pilot pay, it's demand.... and poor management. Labor costs can be adjusted down in bad times and then up in good, but those are not the be all and end all of what makes for a successful company.

 

[Publishers]

right

You are eright of course that pilot pay is but one aspect of a much bigger picture. The real problem is adjusting to much less in the way of revenue.

Some major problems.

Airline with big pilot pay and contracts usually have a much higher labor cost across the board, not just with pilots. That heavy unioization means high labor cost from baggage handlers to pilots. That said, the actual pay is but a small part of the equation. Difficulty in productivity changes, costs of furloughs or layoffs, medical plans, etc etc are all generally higher.

Infrastructures are also much more expensive and leave the airline less flexible. Airlines with short term rental gates can move much quicker than say a United at Chicago.

When revenue falls like it has, almost nothing can deal with it quickly. It is much more difficult for the UAL's and AA's to deal with this than an Air Tran as example.

 

[embdrvr]

Usually my observation is that most have tried, and failed to get hired into a good flying job, and therefore have turned bitter against their chosen profession and can do no more than achieve a chief pilot or DO job at a small mom and pop check or 135 outfit.

Please don't lump all these folks together. I remember some great folks that were CP's at 135 outfits for a variety of reasons, none of which was incompetence. Some of the best learning experiences I had were with a CP or check airman at a 135 carrier. Many were there simply because they wanted to live nearby and be home every night. Nothing wrong with that is there?

 

[Cadillac]

Business travellers?

While were talking about the future of the majors,

It has been my understanding that the airlines get a lot of their profit from business travellers. They can charge something like 4:1 business vs coach seats (or maybe I'm thinking of 1st class?). Regardless, if the fractionals are growing like they are, will they significantly affect the profitability of the airlines as business travellers go with private jets?

 

[LASvegas777]

i dont think the majors are losing that much business travel to the fractionals since the fractionals still charge alot for thier service. any company that is putting the employees on the fractionals are spending more or just as much if they put them on the airlines and if they didnt use the fractionals they would have there own flight department. i believe to use netjets you have to pay a one time yearly fee like 50-100k then you pay a few thousands per hour when you chater the plane

 

[Looking4Traffic]

The Business Traveler

Quote: "i dont think the majors are losing that much business travel to the fractionals since the fractionals still charge alot [sic] for thier [sic] service."

I respectfully disagree. I flew last year for an on-demand, jet charter operation that competed with (and flew the same kind of customers) as the fractionals. I witnessed their growth first-hand and I spoke frequently with the business customers who patronized the fractionals and our 135 operation.

If, for example, a Chicago law firm is involved in a merger of two large east coast companies, that business transaction might require approximately six months of work and require the assignment of 3 attorneys from the firm to complete it. The attorneys, who bill that work at about $250-$350 dollars per hour, will likely have to fly to the east coast nearly every week to assist with the merger. If those three attorneys find out on Monday that they must fly to Kennedy on Tuesday and return on Wednesday, United Airlines will charge them $2,012 each, roundtrip for their trouble. These businessmen will have to show up at least 90 minutes before their flights so that they can stand in line to check their luggage, take their laptops out of their briefcases, keys, change, pens, cell phones, etc. out of their pockets, take their belts and shoes off and be patted down by people they don't know. They will not be able to land at airports of their choosing, will not be able to conduct business (at least privately) during their flight, will not be able to eat what they want to eat (unless they carry it onboard themselves) and their itinerary must be conducted around United's schedule, not their own. (I checked on availability for this flight -- the attorneys would have to wait until 11:00 a.m. to depart on April 1 -- there were no other seats available in first class for earlier flights.) All this for a total of $6,036. Add to that the total amount of non-billable time that they expend traveling (3 hours on the ground in lines or sitting in airports, about 6 hours in the air not being able to conduct business and another 1.5 hours driving farther distances to their meetings) -- approximately $3,100 total -- and their United trip ends up costing about $9,000. (And I'm not even factoring in the potential business or good will that these travelers may have lost while wasting time during their trip or the exhaustion that they feel when they finally reach their hotel.)

And please don't tell me that these guys could spend a lot less (and save a lot more) traveling coach. Someone who lives in a $750,000 house, drives an $80,000 car, and who works in a glass tower 16 hours per day at between $250-$350 per hour doesn't sit wedged between 6-year Suzy, who's returning from Grandma's house and wants to tell you all about it, and some guy who needs a seatbelt extension and asks if you're going to eat all of your (stale) sandwich. I'm comparing apples and apples here.

If the same round trip for these 3 businesspeople, on Net Jets, Flight Options, Exec Jet, etc., costs $13,000, then it's one of the easiest business decisions these guys have made all year. Any important business traveler who has been dropped off at a local FBO, had their personal FO walk them out to their airplane 45 seconds after they got out of their cab, was able to have a productive meeting enroute to their destination (with full access to their luggage and materials), got fed some decent food, and landed where they wanted to land after a quick power-nap will do everything they can to repeat that experience and avoid the airline trip.

Before 9/11, it was a more difficult business decision to spend 20% or 30% more chartering a jet or using a fractional. Now, with airline security concerns and security hassles, more business customers are taking the leap. "Time is money" for these people -- they cannot afford to spend time dealing with crap at airports. That's why fractionals have experience unprecedented growth since 9/11. At least that's what these businesspeople are telling me.

Don't get me wrong. I'm an airline guy. I want the airlines to get back the business traveler. It's going to be tough, though, so long as the airline travel experience remains so foul.