MAJOR Upheaval

[HA25]

Dear Mr. DO

It doesn't surprise me that you feel this way. I doubt that anything can change your mind...

However, I have to ask... what's an 8500 pilot with tons of PIC Turbine doing flying small, low wage airplanes? Usually my observation is that most have tried, and failed to get hired into a good flying job, and therefore have turned bitter against their chosen profession and can do no more than achieve a chief pilot or DO job at a small mom and pop check or 135 outfit.

If the shoe fits, then please wear it and leave us alone.

BTW, what do you pay that girl to work your radios? $12,000/year or is she getting paid with flight-time????

 

[CRJ puppy]

Hear, hear Ty!

 

[Cardinal]

I never said pilots were OVER PAID! I was pointing out that when your compensation affects the companies ability to make a profit, then their might be a problem.

According to my back-of-the-napkin calculation every pilot at United could have worked for FREE last year, completely volunteer labor, and the airline would STILL have lost an unsustainable $300-400 Million!! Now how the fark is that the pilot's problem? That points to issues that are strictly the domain of management, as specifed in the collective bargaining agreement, no less.

 

[HA25]

What we all seem to forget is that people aren't flying today like they were pre-9/11... the problem isn't pilot pay, it's demand.... and poor management. Labor costs can be adjusted down in bad times and then up in good, but those are not the be all and end all of what makes for a successful company.

 

[Publishers]

right

You are eright of course that pilot pay is but one aspect of a much bigger picture. The real problem is adjusting to much less in the way of revenue.

Some major problems.

Airline with big pilot pay and contracts usually have a much higher labor cost across the board, not just with pilots. That heavy unioization means high labor cost from baggage handlers to pilots. That said, the actual pay is but a small part of the equation. Difficulty in productivity changes, costs of furloughs or layoffs, medical plans, etc etc are all generally higher.

Infrastructures are also much more expensive and leave the airline less flexible. Airlines with short term rental gates can move much quicker than say a United at Chicago.

When revenue falls like it has, almost nothing can deal with it quickly. It is much more difficult for the UAL's and AA's to deal with this than an Air Tran as example.

 

[embdrvr]

Usually my observation is that most have tried, and failed to get hired into a good flying job, and therefore have turned bitter against their chosen profession and can do no more than achieve a chief pilot or DO job at a small mom and pop check or 135 outfit.

Please don't lump all these folks together. I remember some great folks that were CP's at 135 outfits for a variety of reasons, none of which was incompetence. Some of the best learning experiences I had were with a CP or check airman at a 135 carrier. Many were there simply because they wanted to live nearby and be home every night. Nothing wrong with that is there?

 

[Cadillac]

Business travellers?

While were talking about the future of the majors,

It has been my understanding that the airlines get a lot of their profit from business travellers. They can charge something like 4:1 business vs coach seats (or maybe I'm thinking of 1st class?). Regardless, if the fractionals are growing like they are, will they significantly affect the profitability of the airlines as business travellers go with private jets?

 

[LASvegas777]

i dont think the majors are losing that much business travel to the fractionals since the fractionals still charge alot for thier service. any company that is putting the employees on the fractionals are spending more or just as much if they put them on the airlines and if they didnt use the fractionals they would have there own flight department. i believe to use netjets you have to pay a one time yearly fee like 50-100k then you pay a few thousands per hour when you chater the plane

 

[Looking4Traffic]

The Business Traveler

Quote: "i dont think the majors are losing that much business travel to the fractionals since the fractionals still charge alot [sic] for thier [sic] service."

I respectfully disagree. I flew last year for an on-demand, jet charter operation that competed with (and flew the same kind of customers) as the fractionals. I witnessed their growth first-hand and I spoke frequently with the business customers who patronized the fractionals and our 135 operation.

If, for example, a Chicago law firm is involved in a merger of two large east coast companies, that business transaction might require approximately six months of work and require the assignment of 3 attorneys from the firm to complete it. The attorneys, who bill that work at about $250-$350 dollars per hour, will likely have to fly to the east coast nearly every week to assist with the merger. If those three attorneys find out on Monday that they must fly to Kennedy on Tuesday and return on Wednesday, United Airlines will charge them $2,012 each, roundtrip for their trouble. These businessmen will have to show up at least 90 minutes before their flights so that they can stand in line to check their luggage, take their laptops out of their briefcases, keys, change, pens, cell phones, etc. out of their pockets, take their belts and shoes off and be patted down by people they don't know. They will not be able to land at airports of their choosing, will not be able to conduct business (at least privately) during their flight, will not be able to eat what they want to eat (unless they carry it onboard themselves) and their itinerary must be conducted around United's schedule, not their own. (I checked on availability for this flight -- the attorneys would have to wait until 11:00 a.m. to depart on April 1 -- there were no other seats available in first class for earlier flights.) All this for a total of $6,036. Add to that the total amount of non-billable time that they expend traveling (3 hours on the ground in lines or sitting in airports, about 6 hours in the air not being able to conduct business and another 1.5 hours driving farther distances to their meetings) -- approximately $3,100 total -- and their United trip ends up costing about $9,000. (And I'm not even factoring in the potential business or good will that these travelers may have lost while wasting time during their trip or the exhaustion that they feel when they finally reach their hotel.)

And please don't tell me that these guys could spend a lot less (and save a lot more) traveling coach. Someone who lives in a $750,000 house, drives an $80,000 car, and who works in a glass tower 16 hours per day at between $250-$350 per hour doesn't sit wedged between 6-year Suzy, who's returning from Grandma's house and wants to tell you all about it, and some guy who needs a seatbelt extension and asks if you're going to eat all of your (stale) sandwich. I'm comparing apples and apples here.

If the same round trip for these 3 businesspeople, on Net Jets, Flight Options, Exec Jet, etc., costs $13,000, then it's one of the easiest business decisions these guys have made all year. Any important business traveler who has been dropped off at a local FBO, had their personal FO walk them out to their airplane 45 seconds after they got out of their cab, was able to have a productive meeting enroute to their destination (with full access to their luggage and materials), got fed some decent food, and landed where they wanted to land after a quick power-nap will do everything they can to repeat that experience and avoid the airline trip.

Before 9/11, it was a more difficult business decision to spend 20% or 30% more chartering a jet or using a fractional. Now, with airline security concerns and security hassles, more business customers are taking the leap. "Time is money" for these people -- they cannot afford to spend time dealing with crap at airports. That's why fractionals have experience unprecedented growth since 9/11. At least that's what these businesspeople are telling me.

Don't get me wrong. I'm an airline guy. I want the airlines to get back the business traveler. It's going to be tough, though, so long as the airline travel experience remains so foul.