Low time pilot training AvCAreer.TV

[Pilot3729]

Sorry

No....I really don't care one way or the other actually, but I don't know why everybody is whining about these schools. I mean it just sounds like some of these guys went to an interview and the guys next to them that went to Tab or Gulfstream got the job, and now they're just P/O'd. Experience doesn't mean a thing really to me. I've seen kids with 1200 hours that can fly the pants off a 5000 hour pilot. Really to me I want the guy who has knowledge and can do his job without getting me in hot water. Were all pilots....you know why truckers couldn't keep the teamsters union nationwide, because they were too busy whining about crap on other truckers and they forgot to smell their own crap. Now they can't agree on a single thing. If we start whining about schools and all the airlines then were responsible for our own dimise. If we don't like a school don't go...If we don't like an airline don't apply...If some kid gets a job outta one of these airlines that turned down your 2000 hours for their 500 then your interview or sim session must have really sucked...Just stop whining...not meant towards you just whiners.

 

[Bluto]

Pilot3729,
I agree that there is a great deal of undesirable whining going on around here. As I understand it, the issue most people have with pay-for-training, or pay-for-job operations is not that they put out such high quality pilots that we can't compete! The issue is that when a student pays for a job, they are effectively shrinking the job pool for qualified, paid, applicants by one. This is why many people are opposed to operations like Gulfstream. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Timebuilder]

Bluto is right.

If the industry loses what could be 5, 10, or 50 legitimate jobs to Gulfstream type operations, it not only means that a similar number of pilots won't get hired and paid for those positions (I'll whine a little about that...) but in addition, it makes the industry labor resource, in this case, pilots, a "less scarce" commodity, and our economic value goes down. Overall, this means that we will be paid less when working ouside of a union structure, and can even affect collective bargaining. Imagine what would happen to pilot wages if everyone could afford training to 1200 hours. What would a 135 pilot earn? Four dollars? Five twenty-five?

Aside from complaining about this kind of operation, or, whining if you prefer, most of us feel a duty to inform the young or just plain impressionable who are new to flying and the business surrounding it about the various methods that are presenting themselves as viable alternatives to the "traditional" training regimes. I myself came within about a week of going to Gulfstream back in 1998, and I was fortunate to have someone give me a perspective that wasn't covered in the magazine ad.

That's one of the functions of this board.
It's the INFO in flightinfo.

 

[Pilot3729]

We already make minimum wage

That is true...I can say this if 135 paid $4.00 bucks an hours at 1200 hours beacause everyone can afford it, then it would balance itself out in the end.
If you take a job for a 135 operation at 4.00 per hour then you don't think highly of your job anyhow. I would find a new one.
Be real...
135 operations don't pay crap and in the real world they do pay that rate. Hell, Ameriflight with their $10.00 per hour rate. That's the same as a 40 hour per week job at 4.00 per hour to me, but I said real....so the Federal Minimum Wage is 6.50....wow, that's only 3.50 lower.
The scenario you were talking about is already real and has been since the 80's.
Pilots think that because they don't have a college degree that deserve to earn alot because why? Because were pilots right...were the prestige....the elite.
Guys get ready because remember the nerds of the 80's....they're coming with degrees, and computer literacy and education.
This is what happens when technology upgrades...we get overrun by the more educated. While we all deny it....our field is going back to the days of the military and the flight technology degrees with half 90 percent of the credit going to Ratings. The other 10 percent may be some Cat n the hat reading and a sam I am cliche.
Were destroying ourselves with out qwest for flight time...Me, you and everyone else who paid for training. Airlines need us..we don't need them. They know that.....Make them pay for training.
ONLY IN THE PERFECT WORLD

 

[Timebuilder]

My example was intended to illustrate the economic impact of PFT operations, and the "real" truth is that every job that is purchased is a job that is lost to a pilot who has paid his dues, and that lowers the profession, economically and ethically. The less scarce pilots are, the less we will be worth to ANY carrier.

 

[publisher]

a couple of last points

1. Gulfstream, the airline part, would never have been able to survive the initial years without the sic program. Therefore they would not exist to employ the captains they employ.

2.. Were they paying, the pay would be almost nothing and the experience level no different than it is now.

In the end,, this issue is not really the big deal people seem to want to make it. In the end, it is not replacing anyone at all. What it does is give some the chance to build time that is hard to get.

 

[Timebuilder]

Re: a couple of last points

1. Gulfstream, the airline part, would never have been able to survive the initial years without the sic program. Therefore they would not exist to employ the captains they employ.

2.. Were they paying, the pay would be almost nothing and the experience level no different than it is now.

In the end,, this issue is not really the big deal people seem to want to make it. In the end, it is not replacing anyone at all. What it does is give some the chance to build time that is hard to get.

Respectfully:

1. If Gulfstream needed a PFT program to start an airline, then they lacked the proper capital to begin. I don't know of another airline that took this extraordinary step as a part of its initial business plan. If Gulstream did not exist, then those captains would then have been employed by someone else who saw the opportunity to start a small airline, and likely the FO's would be paid, not paying.

2. If they were paying, and the pay was insufficient, then they would have more trouble finding FO's. Many small commuters have "low" pay for FO's and captains alike. Those with the highest pay, shortest upgrade times, and best equipment get the top people, and it works it's way down from there to the lowest ranked carriers. At that point, the market determines the survival of a carrier. So far, Gulfstream has survived with their current methods of operation. If the flying public became aware that the FO's were paying for on the job training, there could be a backlash. As the Web grows, a site with that kind of information becomes more and more likely, as concern over flying safety increases.

As we discuss this issue on the Board, and more young pilots become educated, it may become more difficult for PFT opertors to continue this practice. When I got the big picture, I decided against PFT, so I know that education about this issue is an effective deterrent.

 

[publisher]

Look, I have no cross to bear on this either way. The fact is that things are changing.

The cost to get up to where you are employable is getting extremely high. Today, if you have a school without an interview, a deal of some kind with potential job links, you are out of the loop. This is not for everyone It is for some.

The talent always rises.

You have to remember that the people I hang with are recruiters, directors of ops, chief pilots, etc.

Bo doubt they perverted my thought process

 

[flydog]

Ive noticed the same thing about the magazine. Every time an airline is profiled they have a big ad somewhere in the mag and the article is always incredibly biased and slanted

All you have to do is read their writeup on American Eagle about a year back. Amazingly all the employees they "interviewed" for the article loved the company and their job. Made it sound like working at Southwest. Not a word about waiting 10 yrs to upgrade, or the crappy pay, the bs flow through agreement, bum contract, and the rest of it. Nothing but sunshine and daisies according to Publisher

As I have stated before PFT is a crock and is a festering open sore in the aviation profession that needs to die quickly. People like Publisher can defend it and their propaganda magazine all they want but the bottom line is that Gulfstream and magazines like his prey on pilots and hurt all of us

Yes Publisher you are right, if Gulfstream didnt charge pilots to fly they wouldnt exist. As a result these routes would be picked up by Coex who in turn would have 200 less of our pilot brothers on furlough. Pilots who are PAID to fly

Shut your pie hole already!!!!!

 

[publisher]

Flydog, your handle is appropriate use of language.

My magazine is not news, not trying to deal with these issues, it is promoting aviation careers.

Frankly, the stuff you bring up and the constant whining is what I find revolting about an industry I love.

The VP of Operations for a carrier that will remain nameless told me the other day he would just settle for some people that showed up to work. He could teach people to fly, he could not teach them to care.

Your right, I could cover all that BS and deal with all those issues and be accurate. Just what would it accomplish.

 

[Timebuilder]

Flydog, your handle is appropriate use of language.

My magazine is not news, not trying to deal with these issues, it is promoting aviation careers.

Frankly, the stuff you bring up and the constant whining is what I find revolting about an industry I love.

The VP of Operations for a carrier that will remain nameless told me the other day he would just settle for some people that showed up to work. He could teach people to fly, he could not teach them to care.

Your right, I could cover all that BS and deal with all those issues and be accurate. Just what would it accomplish.

I think we need to underscore the difference between a news magazine and an industry house organ. The people that buy those ads have a reasonable expectation that the shortcomings of their company will be glossed over or completely ignored. This is a part of the lesson I learned about PFT and the so-called "pilot shortage". I had this naive idea that this business was inherently more honorable than the broadcasting biz, and that magazines like F***** and P****, and even F****** T******* would never allow misleading ads to be placed in their magazines. If that big ad on page three with the RJ said that I could have some sort of "track" to an airline job by paying them $42,000, then it must be true, right? They woudn't allow an advertiser to lie or cheat, would they? What I discovered was that this was another mud puddle, although a more attractive one, but a mud puddle none the less. I had made the mistake of associating the individual honor of men I knew with the honor of the business itself.

Lesson? It's still caveat emptor, let the buyer beware.

That's why it's so important to share these perspectives with the younger, and less experienced among us. Think of it as Customer In Command authority.

I'm still waiting to talk with someone like that VP of operations. I know he must exist, I just haven't found him yet.

 

[Ty Webb]

This is to the "military guy":

1) You clearly do not even understand the issue that is being discussed- why don't you listen up on the frequency before you key your mike next time?

2) Are you saying I should be embarassed because I have flown four types of jet and only have 3300tt? WTFO? I'm not sure what you are trying to say, because your post is so disjointed and disgorganized. You sure you're a pilot?

3) My route to my airline seat may not have fit your timetable, but at least I didn't try to buy a job that should have gone to a more competitively qualified pilot- that is what the PFT argument is all about.

3) If you really are a former military pilot (doubtful), you are a real embarassment to your colleagues, most of whom figure out very early on that at the airline level, being a former military pilot doesn't mean "good pilot" at all. I have flown with some military guys who were good, and some who were bad. The ones who had your attitude, though were almost uniformly bad and tended to get "bid around" a lot. Maybe you ought totake a look in the mirror.

Have a nice life.

 

[Focus]

Pay For Training

This debate has been going on for years. PFT is inevitable if you look at the profit margins and the economics that many airlines operate within. No matter how you look at it, every single pilot pays for his training one way or the other, including military guys with the commitment they have to make. It may not appear to be tangible but I guarantee in this industry we have all paid for our training one way or the other. Time is Money, and thats the bottom line. Senority is your future. How you get there is up to you. Supply and Demand we all learned in Economics 101.

Im not agreeing or disagreeing w/ PFT. I am just stating what is obvious about any industry. Not only aviation. This goes on in every business one way or the other. Think about it for a moment. Whining about it when its not helping you to attain senority is worthless. For what its worth, after Flight Instructing I moved up the ladder as a Freight Dog. Now that I look back I would only do that again as a last resort. If my boys ever want to follow in my footsteps I will highly reccomend the military first, then Embry Riddle, and lastly paying tangible $ to acquire their senority. Who ever has the biggest purse usually wins the series. Look at the NY Yankees. We are all part of a larger team but as always we run our own Private Lives. Your Life is your business. Success in this industry is based on a good business plan as their is alot of competition. Back to Supply and Demand.
Good Luck to all since each and everyone of you I know would love to have that coveted senority number for your families well being.
By the way, I believe Timebuilder states that he is a civillian pilot that is military educated. Just an FYI for the guy who slammed him.

 

[Ty Webb]

My post wasn't directed at Timebuilder- it was directed at the ranter who preceded him- Pilot3729 who jumped in to a string that he didn't understand, and then tried to insult me to boot.

The issue surrounding PFT is one of pilots who are willing to pay money to buy their way to the top. If we all lived and worked in a vacuum, then it would be their own business. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

The person who agrees to pay for training (pays the employer money) harms every one else in the industry, to one extent or another. It is very much like the person who shows up at the Chief Pilot's office and says, "Hey, I would be willing to fly SIC in your airplanes for FREE in order to get experience". The person means well, wants to advance his own career, but what he really does is make a paying job disappear, or lower the bar for the rest of us.

Pilot 3729- If you are flying "the whale" then let me put it to you like this- how would you feel if your company started furloughing whale pilots because their competitor just inked a deal with Gulfstream Academy to send them F/O's who were paying by the hour to be there, and their Captains were working for $65./hr- Would you still feel the same way?

If you want to teach your kids to climb over every one else in order to get a seniority number, and that seniority is more important than honor, that's up to you, but let's call it what it is- greed.

 

[Focus]

Wrong Guy Ty

I believe you made a mistake Ty. 3729 did not write the msg. you attacked. Its obvious that you have serious issues with what I said. You know what, thats alright...This is America...You are entitled to your point of view. I just wish you would lighten up alittle. Do you really think you have a right to attack my believes because their not in line with yours? Is that HONORABLE? Again, This is America. Many people have given their lifes for the Freedom we have. Capitalism provides opportunity as far as Im concerned. Instead of whining, why dont you start a Union for Pilots That Want Experience. Thats the only way you could ever stop PFT.

Seriously Ty, get real. If you won the lotto would you keep working or would you enjoy the new luxurious life of your new found wealth. Im betting on the latter. My point: There are those that have and those that dont. How people spend their time and money is their own business unless its illegal of course.

Hopefully, this makes sense to you and others who keep complaining about the system. Its not perfect or always fair but thats the system. It may have taken longer to get wher you want, and Im sure we appreciate it more at one time or another. I really dont think this constitutes honor though. Perserverence would be more appropriate. Enough Rambling. Go start the PAYLESS Training Union.......As president you can even earn some big bucks. Then again, you probably wouldn't want the cash as that may seem greedy so just send it to me for the idea. Good Luck.