Low time pilot training AvCAreer.TV

publisher

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Wednesday at 2pm, AvCAreer.TV will be discussing low time pilot training programs and concepts with Mitch Mitchelson from TabExpress International . Call with your questions or email host@avcareer.tv.
 

Ty Webb

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Publisher:

Posts such as yours are advertisements, and I believe you will find a request by Mark(Webmaster) to refrain from making such posts.

I, for one, come to this Board because it is free of this type of garbage. Your company already sends me one unwanted magazine every month (which I have asked them to stop sending to me) I sure don't need to see your posts pimping some web conference or job fair.

If people are truly interested in spending their hard-earned dollars with your company, fine, but the rest of us don't need the extra textural diarrhea. - it is truly disgusting to watch people like yourself attempt to cash in on the desperation of furloughed crewmembers.

While we're at it- why don't you identify yourself by name and clarify your affiliation with AEPS?
 

jaybird

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In publishers defense, the service is free. However if you do your homework, or ask questons on this board you will find most of the answers to your questions. I am not an AEPS member and I interviewed and was offered a class position with AirNet. The topics discussed and information revealed on avcareer were informative, but already known to me from discussion on this board.

Now, the adds Tab Express runs are another story and are completly misleading. The top of the add states "Men & Women WANTED to Supply US Airline Pilot Shortage." This add is in the Jan. 2002 issue of the Air Inc magazine.
 

p.b.

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I agree with Ty Webb. AEPS already spams my email about each new show (although I'm not sure how I ended up on the list), and if I'm really interested I can go to the avcareer website to find out what is coming up.

If you have an opinion about the show this is the place to talk about it, but if you want to advertise the show click on the advertiser inquiry link on the left side of the page.
 

publisher

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Services

When we started AvCAreer.TV, I asked Mark about posting on these boards and he indicated that it was alright.

I agreed and have brought up Flightinfo.com on these shows so that others could find out about it. The shows have generated about 18,000 viewers so far and hopefully some have heard about these boards there.

While many of the questions one has can be answered on this board, the fact is that we have given you the opportunity to call and talk to these people. You did not have to be a member to do so.

When Ty sent me messages about my magazine. I brought up the points that he made on air. What he appears to be most upset about is that we had an article on Gulfstream in the magazine. It is a pft issue to him and not to me.

Before the shows, I check the boards for any appropriate questions. We want to ask what you want to know.

Frankly the people who appear should be indicative of the fact that we talk to and are a respected entitiy in this business.

As to email, we plead guilty. Unfortunately a good deal of it is automatic, plus the new shows have been marketed a good deal as they are new. I get on average 150 emails a day too.
 

Ty Webb

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Actually, what I am upset about is the activities of the industry that you are in, specifically the marketing, packaging and selling the whole "Come be a regional airline pilot!" thing, which serves to recruit hundreds of potential pilots with lures of high pay, snappy uniforms, and the "fast-track to an airline seat".

Most pilots who have been around this industry for a while have developed a jaded view of companies such as Air Inc, AEPS and some of the other companies that have made an industry out of packaging and selling employment information to eager newbies.

Those of us who have been around for a while also can see the negative effect on our industry caused in part by your efforts to create new customers for yourself. By touting expensive "accelerated" programs to "jumpstart your career", you blur the line between paying money and getting meaningful experience. At the extreme end of this equation are companies like Gulfstream, that instead of hiring competitively-qualified crewmembers, they actually rent out the F/O seat as block time.

As I said in my Private Message to you- I challenge you to create a more balanced, truly journalistic approach to the situation- for every smiling newbie in the right seat of a Gulfstream B1900, there is a qualified pilot without work.
 

publisher

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Tout

First, we have not touted or promoted anything. We did do a story on Gulfstream. They do exist, they have a program, whether you like the way they do it, they are a legitimate company, and, hence a legitimate story.

Second, AEPS is the Aviation--not airline--- EPS. We sell no materials on how to become one at all. Air Inc is geared specifically to airline pilot careers, not us.

Lastly, I am not debating the merits or lack of merit of the fact some people elect to pay to build the time in this manner. In the PM, my point is that in either case, the F/O is going to have the same experience level because these jobs paid or not paid are traditional time builders that pay very little.

What I do resent is that you are condeming my magazine and company because we printed an article on a company you do not care for. Last year we printed about 3500 articles. We should have asked you how you felt about these companies first.
 

Ty Webb

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Re: Tout

Originally posted by publisher

"First, we have not touted or promoted anything. We did do a story on Gulfstream. They do exist, they have a program, whether you like the way they do it, they are a legitimate company, and, hence a legitimate story".

I see. . . How much advertising revenue has your company (including its parent company) received from Gulfstream? Do you think that it could have colored your "reporting" a little?

"Second, AEPS is the Aviation--not airline--- EPS. We sell no materials on how to become one at all. Air Inc is geared specifically to airline pilot careers, not us".

Oh, come on- that's just not being honest! You may not target the pre-Private crowd, but the rest of your statement is pure hogwash.

"Lastly, I am not debating the merits or lack of merit of the fact some people elect to pay to build the time in this manner. In the PM, my point is that in either case, the F/O is going to have the same experience level because these jobs paid or not paid are traditional time builders that pay very little".

What you refuse to see is how your one-sided coverage of companies like Gulfstream helps justify turning entry-level positions into further extensions of flight training programs. This clearly hurts the audience you profess to want to serve. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

"What I do resent is that you are condeming my magazine and company because we printed an article on a company you do not care for".

No, I condemn you and your magazine and company because of your effects on our Industry ("Come be a Pilot!") and because you have the gall to pose as a legitimate magazine when you basically exist to write glowing, breathless articles about your advertisers. Gulfstream is just the most blatant example.

"Last year we printed about 3500 articles. We should have asked you how you felt about these companies first."

Uh, sorry, but I don't have the time or the stomach to wade through any more of your drivel- I get enough of it on this board.

Thank you, Come Again!
 
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publisher

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ads

We may have received one ad from Gulfstream in the last year,,,,don't really remember. They were in there because they were a South Florida company and I was there when Cooper started the company. He would have been there ad or not.... I admire people who start something from scratch and take the risk.

Let me ask you this,,,, what company have you started, have you ever had to make a payroll, what have you accomplished or done that involved having employees or offering anyone jobs.

We feature a school every month,,, advertiser or not.

While you do not like it, I see more and more of these extensions of flight training. Whether it be a guaranteed interview, a job offer, or you pay to get the turbine hours. This is where it is going and we report it.

Hurt the profession, I could not possibly do the damage it manages to do to itself.
 

Ty Webb

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You just can't keep from putting your foot in your own mouth, can you?

I did start a business, in our very same industry. During the lean years in the early Nineties.

Rather than buy a job, I started my own charter company. I did meet a payroll, wrote my own business plan, operating plan and marketing plan. I know the difference between an Income Statement and a Balance Sheet.

The difference between me and Gulfstream is that I did it without climbing on the backs of my fellow pilots.

After three years, I decided that I really preferred to fly, and when the opportunity came around to get into a corporate jet, I took it.

You know, what is really striking to me is that, at the end of your last post, your true colors came through. The derision you feel for pilots really was apparent- I smell another failed pilot.

Don't look for any more responses for me- I have a trip starting tomorrow. You see, I have a flying job, which to me, is the best job, and I didn't buy it, take any short cuts, or have to work as a hack to get it.

Ciao.
 

stingray

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these kind of companies are not good for aviation they are trying to take short cuts in order to get their company to make a profit. gulfstream is one of them whom is willing to take the shortcut with inexpierence co-pilots, (it may be legal but it doesn't make right or safe)
What is that line that you should never cross especialy in aviation? Do the research!
 
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publisher

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Either Way

StingRay,

The argument is who is paid or paying.

The fact is that the level of experience is not going to be very high either way in the Gulfstream case.

Tab is different. No carrier involved. It is an extremely intense program from what I saw with instructors who had tremendous experience levels. Is is for everyone,,,, no. It is geared to crew oriented multi engine turbine. If that is what one needs and wants, they have a solid program that is focused.
 

stingray

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PFT is not good idea anyways.
Tab does have a 135 its even on thier website as lure to get prospective students.
I disagree with the pft concept as do many others. I've talked with some of the co-pilot/students in the Gulfstream enviorment and they scared me they should not be in that seat with their current expierence level, and some of my info comes from thier own captains.
My point you can't cram expierence into a few months. that pft tries to do
IT makes it even hader for expierenced pilots to make a living because of such low wages that it produces because of people willing to do the PFT
I do disagree with a certain philosiphy that is held at gulfstream by one of the persons in-charge and what they have done.
Maybe TY can explain it better, I don't know him but it looks like we agree.

Anyways Fly Safe and keep the blue side up
 

Pilot3729

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Why do we even care...

First of all, that guys with all those aircraft types flown has only 3000+ hours. Man what kinda job do you have?

I sense jealousy...and resentment.

He's talking about pilot's with a lack of experience...I'm sorry, but if you've flown all those aircraft and you have only 3000 hours and owned your own 135. Man, you think you've earned the cockpit.

You know when I was in the Marines we had very accelerated training. We did good when it came to flying standards.

I could outfly a 500 civilian pilot at 300 as far as knowledge and confidence. At 1000 hours later, which took forever I might add. We flew over oceans/countries/weather and yes Fan songs and Flushes sweating jerries. They are like the FAA, but not as nice on checkrides.

My point is when I pushed the 1500 CFII out of the seat for a job at 1200 hours I did'nt have any wine with my cheese or did I care what it took for him to get there.

Just be glad you're there and not in a country where they don't even have civil aviation.

If your whining about a pay raise or lost seat in a 777. Grab your splitting beaver and relax, because your interview didn't go well. Not because a guy from Gulfstream got your seat in the 777.

There's just too much whining going on..............WAWAWAAAA
 

Bluto

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I'm sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say. I think you may have flown for the military, but...that's about all I can gather from your post. Honestly, I can't tell if you are pro or against PFT. A little punctuation goes a long way.
 

Pilot3729

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Sorry

No....I really don't care one way or the other actually, but I don't know why everybody is whining about these schools. I mean it just sounds like some of these guys went to an interview and the guys next to them that went to Tab or Gulfstream got the job, and now they're just P/O'd. Experience doesn't mean a thing really to me. I've seen kids with 1200 hours that can fly the pants off a 5000 hour pilot. Really to me I want the guy who has knowledge and can do his job without getting me in hot water. Were all pilots....you know why truckers couldn't keep the teamsters union nationwide, because they were too busy whining about crap on other truckers and they forgot to smell their own crap. Now they can't agree on a single thing. If we start whining about schools and all the airlines then were responsible for our own dimise. If we don't like a school don't go...If we don't like an airline don't apply...If some kid gets a job outta one of these airlines that turned down your 2000 hours for their 500 then your interview or sim session must have really sucked...Just stop whining...not meant towards you just whiners.
 

Bluto

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Pilot3729,
I agree that there is a great deal of undesirable whining going on around here. As I understand it, the issue most people have with pay-for-training, or pay-for-job operations is not that they put out such high quality pilots that we can't compete! The issue is that when a student pays for a job, they are effectively shrinking the job pool for qualified, paid, applicants by one. This is why many people are opposed to operations like Gulfstream. Thanks for the clarification.
 

Timebuilder

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Bluto is right.

If the industry loses what could be 5, 10, or 50 legitimate jobs to Gulfstream type operations, it not only means that a similar number of pilots won't get hired and paid for those positions (I'll whine a little about that...) but in addition, it makes the industry labor resource, in this case, pilots, a "less scarce" commodity, and our economic value goes down. Overall, this means that we will be paid less when working ouside of a union structure, and can even affect collective bargaining. Imagine what would happen to pilot wages if everyone could afford training to 1200 hours. What would a 135 pilot earn? Four dollars? Five twenty-five?

Aside from complaining about this kind of operation, or, whining if you prefer, most of us feel a duty to inform the young or just plain impressionable who are new to flying and the business surrounding it about the various methods that are presenting themselves as viable alternatives to the "traditional" training regimes. I myself came within about a week of going to Gulfstream back in 1998, and I was fortunate to have someone give me a perspective that wasn't covered in the magazine ad.

That's one of the functions of this board.
It's the INFO in flightinfo.
 

Pilot3729

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We already make minimum wage

That is true...I can say this if 135 paid $4.00 bucks an hours at 1200 hours beacause everyone can afford it, then it would balance itself out in the end.
If you take a job for a 135 operation at 4.00 per hour then you don't think highly of your job anyhow. I would find a new one.
Be real...
135 operations don't pay crap and in the real world they do pay that rate. Hell, Ameriflight with their $10.00 per hour rate. That's the same as a 40 hour per week job at 4.00 per hour to me, but I said real....so the Federal Minimum Wage is 6.50....wow, that's only 3.50 lower.
The scenario you were talking about is already real and has been since the 80's.
Pilots think that because they don't have a college degree that deserve to earn alot because why? Because were pilots right...were the prestige....the elite.
Guys get ready because remember the nerds of the 80's....they're coming with degrees, and computer literacy and education.
This is what happens when technology upgrades...we get overrun by the more educated. While we all deny it....our field is going back to the days of the military and the flight technology degrees with half 90 percent of the credit going to Ratings. The other 10 percent may be some Cat n the hat reading and a sam I am cliche.
Were destroying ourselves with out qwest for flight time...Me, you and everyone else who paid for training. Airlines need us..we don't need them. They know that.....Make them pay for training.
ONLY IN THE PERFECT WORLD
 

Timebuilder

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My example was intended to illustrate the economic impact of PFT operations, and the "real" truth is that every job that is purchased is a job that is lost to a pilot who has paid his dues, and that lowers the profession, economically and ethically. The less scarce pilots are, the less we will be worth to ANY carrier.
 
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