Low time pilot training AvCAreer.TV

[publisher]

a couple of last points

1. Gulfstream, the airline part, would never have been able to survive the initial years without the sic program. Therefore they would not exist to employ the captains they employ.

2.. Were they paying, the pay would be almost nothing and the experience level no different than it is now.

In the end,, this issue is not really the big deal people seem to want to make it. In the end, it is not replacing anyone at all. What it does is give some the chance to build time that is hard to get.

 

[Timebuilder]

Re: a couple of last points

1. Gulfstream, the airline part, would never have been able to survive the initial years without the sic program. Therefore they would not exist to employ the captains they employ.

2.. Were they paying, the pay would be almost nothing and the experience level no different than it is now.

In the end,, this issue is not really the big deal people seem to want to make it. In the end, it is not replacing anyone at all. What it does is give some the chance to build time that is hard to get.

Respectfully:

1. If Gulfstream needed a PFT program to start an airline, then they lacked the proper capital to begin. I don't know of another airline that took this extraordinary step as a part of its initial business plan. If Gulstream did not exist, then those captains would then have been employed by someone else who saw the opportunity to start a small airline, and likely the FO's would be paid, not paying.

2. If they were paying, and the pay was insufficient, then they would have more trouble finding FO's. Many small commuters have "low" pay for FO's and captains alike. Those with the highest pay, shortest upgrade times, and best equipment get the top people, and it works it's way down from there to the lowest ranked carriers. At that point, the market determines the survival of a carrier. So far, Gulfstream has survived with their current methods of operation. If the flying public became aware that the FO's were paying for on the job training, there could be a backlash. As the Web grows, a site with that kind of information becomes more and more likely, as concern over flying safety increases.

As we discuss this issue on the Board, and more young pilots become educated, it may become more difficult for PFT opertors to continue this practice. When I got the big picture, I decided against PFT, so I know that education about this issue is an effective deterrent.

 

[publisher]

Look, I have no cross to bear on this either way. The fact is that things are changing.

The cost to get up to where you are employable is getting extremely high. Today, if you have a school without an interview, a deal of some kind with potential job links, you are out of the loop. This is not for everyone It is for some.

The talent always rises.

You have to remember that the people I hang with are recruiters, directors of ops, chief pilots, etc.

Bo doubt they perverted my thought process

 

[flydog]

Ive noticed the same thing about the magazine. Every time an airline is profiled they have a big ad somewhere in the mag and the article is always incredibly biased and slanted

All you have to do is read their writeup on American Eagle about a year back. Amazingly all the employees they "interviewed" for the article loved the company and their job. Made it sound like working at Southwest. Not a word about waiting 10 yrs to upgrade, or the crappy pay, the bs flow through agreement, bum contract, and the rest of it. Nothing but sunshine and daisies according to Publisher

As I have stated before PFT is a crock and is a festering open sore in the aviation profession that needs to die quickly. People like Publisher can defend it and their propaganda magazine all they want but the bottom line is that Gulfstream and magazines like his prey on pilots and hurt all of us

Yes Publisher you are right, if Gulfstream didnt charge pilots to fly they wouldnt exist. As a result these routes would be picked up by Coex who in turn would have 200 less of our pilot brothers on furlough. Pilots who are PAID to fly

Shut your pie hole already!!!!!

 

[publisher]

Flydog, your handle is appropriate use of language.

My magazine is not news, not trying to deal with these issues, it is promoting aviation careers.

Frankly, the stuff you bring up and the constant whining is what I find revolting about an industry I love.

The VP of Operations for a carrier that will remain nameless told me the other day he would just settle for some people that showed up to work. He could teach people to fly, he could not teach them to care.

Your right, I could cover all that BS and deal with all those issues and be accurate. Just what would it accomplish.

 

[Timebuilder]

Flydog, your handle is appropriate use of language.

My magazine is not news, not trying to deal with these issues, it is promoting aviation careers.

Frankly, the stuff you bring up and the constant whining is what I find revolting about an industry I love.

The VP of Operations for a carrier that will remain nameless told me the other day he would just settle for some people that showed up to work. He could teach people to fly, he could not teach them to care.

Your right, I could cover all that BS and deal with all those issues and be accurate. Just what would it accomplish.

I think we need to underscore the difference between a news magazine and an industry house organ. The people that buy those ads have a reasonable expectation that the shortcomings of their company will be glossed over or completely ignored. This is a part of the lesson I learned about PFT and the so-called "pilot shortage". I had this naive idea that this business was inherently more honorable than the broadcasting biz, and that magazines like F***** and P****, and even F****** T******* would never allow misleading ads to be placed in their magazines. If that big ad on page three with the RJ said that I could have some sort of "track" to an airline job by paying them $42,000, then it must be true, right? They woudn't allow an advertiser to lie or cheat, would they? What I discovered was that this was another mud puddle, although a more attractive one, but a mud puddle none the less. I had made the mistake of associating the individual honor of men I knew with the honor of the business itself.

Lesson? It's still caveat emptor, let the buyer beware.

That's why it's so important to share these perspectives with the younger, and less experienced among us. Think of it as Customer In Command authority.

I'm still waiting to talk with someone like that VP of operations. I know he must exist, I just haven't found him yet.

 

[Ty Webb]

This is to the "military guy":

1) You clearly do not even understand the issue that is being discussed- why don't you listen up on the frequency before you key your mike next time?

2) Are you saying I should be embarassed because I have flown four types of jet and only have 3300tt? WTFO? I'm not sure what you are trying to say, because your post is so disjointed and disgorganized. You sure you're a pilot?

3) My route to my airline seat may not have fit your timetable, but at least I didn't try to buy a job that should have gone to a more competitively qualified pilot- that is what the PFT argument is all about.

3) If you really are a former military pilot (doubtful), you are a real embarassment to your colleagues, most of whom figure out very early on that at the airline level, being a former military pilot doesn't mean "good pilot" at all. I have flown with some military guys who were good, and some who were bad. The ones who had your attitude, though were almost uniformly bad and tended to get "bid around" a lot. Maybe you ought totake a look in the mirror.

Have a nice life.

 

[Focus]

Pay For Training

This debate has been going on for years. PFT is inevitable if you look at the profit margins and the economics that many airlines operate within. No matter how you look at it, every single pilot pays for his training one way or the other, including military guys with the commitment they have to make. It may not appear to be tangible but I guarantee in this industry we have all paid for our training one way or the other. Time is Money, and thats the bottom line. Senority is your future. How you get there is up to you. Supply and Demand we all learned in Economics 101.

Im not agreeing or disagreeing w/ PFT. I am just stating what is obvious about any industry. Not only aviation. This goes on in every business one way or the other. Think about it for a moment. Whining about it when its not helping you to attain senority is worthless. For what its worth, after Flight Instructing I moved up the ladder as a Freight Dog. Now that I look back I would only do that again as a last resort. If my boys ever want to follow in my footsteps I will highly reccomend the military first, then Embry Riddle, and lastly paying tangible $ to acquire their senority. Who ever has the biggest purse usually wins the series. Look at the NY Yankees. We are all part of a larger team but as always we run our own Private Lives. Your Life is your business. Success in this industry is based on a good business plan as their is alot of competition. Back to Supply and Demand.
Good Luck to all since each and everyone of you I know would love to have that coveted senority number for your families well being.
By the way, I believe Timebuilder states that he is a civillian pilot that is military educated. Just an FYI for the guy who slammed him.

 

[Ty Webb]

My post wasn't directed at Timebuilder- it was directed at the ranter who preceded him- Pilot3729 who jumped in to a string that he didn't understand, and then tried to insult me to boot.

The issue surrounding PFT is one of pilots who are willing to pay money to buy their way to the top. If we all lived and worked in a vacuum, then it would be their own business. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

The person who agrees to pay for training (pays the employer money) harms every one else in the industry, to one extent or another. It is very much like the person who shows up at the Chief Pilot's office and says, "Hey, I would be willing to fly SIC in your airplanes for FREE in order to get experience". The person means well, wants to advance his own career, but what he really does is make a paying job disappear, or lower the bar for the rest of us.

Pilot 3729- If you are flying "the whale" then let me put it to you like this- how would you feel if your company started furloughing whale pilots because their competitor just inked a deal with Gulfstream Academy to send them F/O's who were paying by the hour to be there, and their Captains were working for $65./hr- Would you still feel the same way?

If you want to teach your kids to climb over every one else in order to get a seniority number, and that seniority is more important than honor, that's up to you, but let's call it what it is- greed.

 

[Focus]

Wrong Guy Ty

I believe you made a mistake Ty. 3729 did not write the msg. you attacked. Its obvious that you have serious issues with what I said. You know what, thats alright...This is America...You are entitled to your point of view. I just wish you would lighten up alittle. Do you really think you have a right to attack my believes because their not in line with yours? Is that HONORABLE? Again, This is America. Many people have given their lifes for the Freedom we have. Capitalism provides opportunity as far as Im concerned. Instead of whining, why dont you start a Union for Pilots That Want Experience. Thats the only way you could ever stop PFT.

Seriously Ty, get real. If you won the lotto would you keep working or would you enjoy the new luxurious life of your new found wealth. Im betting on the latter. My point: There are those that have and those that dont. How people spend their time and money is their own business unless its illegal of course.

Hopefully, this makes sense to you and others who keep complaining about the system. Its not perfect or always fair but thats the system. It may have taken longer to get wher you want, and Im sure we appreciate it more at one time or another. I really dont think this constitutes honor though. Perserverence would be more appropriate. Enough Rambling. Go start the PAYLESS Training Union.......As president you can even earn some big bucks. Then again, you probably wouldn't want the cash as that may seem greedy so just send it to me for the idea. Good Luck.

 

[flydog]

Focus your points are really irrelevant

Just because something is legal does not make it morally sound and ethical

If it werent for ALPA the right seat of every airliner in this country might be filled with PFTers with 250 hrs. The airlines dont care. Theyre out to save a buck. The PFTers dont care. They just love flying.

The people who care are the passengers and the experienced professional pilots that are put out of work. This is were immoral and unethical comes in. Kind of like a lawyer who is an ambulance chaser or a magazine editor that emebelishes a story for advertising revenue.

What if you hired a guy to install floor tile in your home and instead of using cement he used Elmer's Glue. Is it legal? Yes. Is it ethical. NO

If Gulfstream were to post a sign at the gate stating "Your flight cew today is made up of people who paid for the right to work here and were not selected by screeeing or interviewing the BEST QUALIFIED AND EXPERIENCED applicants. In most cases they meet only the bare minimum requirements per the FARs" How many people would get on that airplane?

To me there is little difference between a guy who buys a job at Gulfstream and a Scab. Both hurt the professional pilot. If you cant see this you need to go work at Home Depot not at an airline. The day some guy pays $10,000 for your job because he loves working with lumber maybe youll get the picture.

 

[Focus]

Flydog, That is exactly why Unions exist in our country. Believe me, Ive got the picture. Many PFT pilots got jobs ahead of me years ago. I didn't sit around complaining. I just worked hard and structured my business plan differently in order to flank them. If your the quaterback in a football game are you going to keep complaining to the ref. about some Defensive Guard who is throwing dirt in the eyes of your lineman or are you going to take him out with your Center or Tackle, while your running a play off the other side.

All Im trying to say, is the rules of the game and the game itself are not always fair. Work Hard, Think Smart, Play Right. If the other guy is beating you then work a new strategy. The whining does nothing for you and obviously does not change the outcome. The only way I could possibly ever see PFT no longer in existence is with Unions. Then again, there have been Union Shops that had PFT. If your faceing this battle in your current situation then go back to the drawing board. Believe me there are ways to get around it if you need to.

By the way, any idea how much their paying at Home Depo?
Stop The Whining Already!!!!!!!!Play Ball & Let the Best Team Win.

 

[Ty Webb]

None of your sporting analogies really address the issue.

The issue is that new entrants to our field are often sold the idea that they can somehow buy their way into a position that they are not competitively qualified for. Many times these pilots are not yet "in" the industry, and derive much of their information from magazines and the ads and articles therein.

These boards are an excellent place to put forth the message that buying a job or agreeing to pay the employer for FAA-mandated training has ethical and long-term implications for one's career.

I was on these boards in the mid-to-late Nineties, when PFT was a BIG issue,and I guarantee you that it did make a difference towards ending PFT. PFT ended at Comair, COEX, ASA, ACA when pilots chose to go to other carriers who did not require PFT.

That decision was not just financial- most of us also take into consideration whether something is "right" or not- I know I did. I could have PFT'ed in 1990 at ASA- I decided not to, and I have never regretted it.


That is why I and others spend a few minutes here and there to remind others- because without the counterbalance, all the new guys can see are the "Come, be a PILOT" crap that Publisher and his ilk are putting out there.

Which brings us back to where we started this string- and, so- this is where I get off.

Good luck to all

 

[Focus]

I have to disagree with why PFT stopped in the late 90's. If you recall we were getting into a pilot shortage at that time. It was purely economics. The airlines were not able to fill the seats with enough semi-qualified guys willing to pay who were capable of doing the job. They had no choice but to open the doors to more qualified individuals capable of getting through the training. If it really was for the true holdouts then we would not be seeing the same cycle repeating itself. Its all economics.. $$$$$$, Supply and Demand. I wonder what will happen to this industry when we start using Drones???

Be prepared, as it will happen. Their are some brilliant engineers at Boeing and other airlines that are already working on the concept. Heck, were already getting rid of the Flt. Engineers. Technology will not stand still. Will we whine about the Computer Engineers acting as PIC from a ground station why the crewmembers are merely along for the ride in case something goes wrong in the DataBases.??? Just a thought......

Anyhow, thats a totally different topic. I do find the possibilites extremely interesting. Nobody needs to win or loose in this debate but respecting one anothers opinion without bashing eachother creates a far better atmosphere. -Focus

 

[Ty Webb]

Focus-

The market forces had to change to enable the demise of PFT, but without pilots like us speaking out on the subject, PFT nearly became the "norm". You would be surprised how many new pilots on these boards thought that most, if not all, regionals required PFT. Many, many pilots wrote in to say that after reading up on the subject, had decided against a PFT carrier in favor of a non-PFT one.

When pilots and MEC members read how others in the industry view the practice on these boards, it becomes more obvious that it is an issue to be addressed inside and/or outside of contract negotiations. It was a black-eye on the companies that practiced it, and those of us who were around then need to be vigilant that it doesn't crop up again.

I get especially bent when I see people write that PFT was "necessary" for some companies- less than half of the regionals were ever PFT, and some of the biggest and most successful ones were never PFT, period.

On other matters. I'm not worried about drones during my career. It would take far too long to convince the public that their level of safety would justify it, and anyone with a personal computer has seen first-hand that computers need humans when they start doing wacky stuff. Just ask any Airbus pilot!

I don't think the F/A's would go for it either, but I am sure we will see huge changes in our lifetime, so maybe I will be wrong- won't be the first time.


Signed,

a Yoke and Throttle Operator from sector 7-G

 

[flydog]

Focus

You really have a lot to learn about what an airline Captain does

If you think "drones" will replace an airliner with a human crew you dont know the first thing about the job

Flying a passenger jet isnt just pushing buttons. We arent there to program the GPS and talk on the radio.

Our job is to make DECISIONS !!!! Being an airline captain requires good judgement and decision making ability. You can teach a monkey to fly a jet

No computer will ever take the place of the human decision making process. The cockpits will become more automated but it still takes a person to run the system and make the calls.

When both engine flame out and complete electrical power is lost I would rather have a pilot over Microsoft in the cockpit any day of the week.

 

[Focus]

Open Your Eyes Flydog!!

Flydog, or should we call you Basher or Flamebait? State your opinion on a subject and be done. If you need reference material or perhaps would like to investigate this subject more a good starting point on Drones would be Boeing, NASA, or the nearest THINK TANK. Check out what were already doing with FANS (Future Air Navigation Systems). Automation in the cockpit is already here. Satellite Communication Systems are improving by the day. We have along way to go but is it feasible? I say yes, thats my humble opinion. Will it hurt us as pilots? I haven't reached a final decision on that as I always believe there is a way to circumnavigate situations that would otherwise be detrimental to your well being. I call this Creativity and Flexibility when presented with obstacles. Good Luck w/ your own decisions.

By the way, I cant remember the guys name but he was the CEO of DEC (Digital Equip. Corp). I could be wrong on the company also so dont quote me. Lets just say that this guy told everyone that there would never be a need for home computers, and that his company should not focus R&D Funds in this area. Needless to say this guy lost his job which paid very well. Where is he now? I have no idea. Heck, I cant even remember his name but I can remember names like Steve Jobs, Michael Dell, Bill Gates and PARC (Palo Alto Research Center).

Perhaps you get my point. FLY SAFE

 

[flydog]

Focus you can call me sir.

I am having a hard time deciphering the rest of your babble which seems to have nothing to do with flying. Maybe Bill Gates has a forum that would be more your speed

The FAA still hasnt figured out a way to come up with a worthwile GPS approach to replace the ancient but reliable ILS. Being that my mandatory retirement will be in roughly 29 years I doubt I will live to see the day of your robotic airliners.

Good luck with your whale flying job. Hope its not PFT

 

[Focus]

Flydog Dude!!!

Flydog Dude!!!!! Thats what I will call you. Lighten up. You were bashing me and I was only stating my opinions. If you go back and read my previous msg.'s I think you will find that I came up the ole fashioned way. FREIGHTDOG. You bet your A** I paid for it with the amount of money we all made on that career path. By the way, if you want people to call you sir you have to earn it. LOL, Bashing people is not the way to do it.

You may be correct that we will not see DRONES in our career but after a few more years under your belt I think you might be less inclined to say that certain things will never happen. This is the ever changing world of AVIATION.

I was only trying to get everone to stop whining... WAWAWA I get sick of it. -Surely you can understand that. And Im not calling you Shirley...SEE Ya -SIR FOCUS- i kinda like that...