Looks Like 1500 Hours May Become the New Hiring Minimum Among Other Things:

[General Lee]

I think this is great. The regionals will have to bring up pay, since pilots with 1500 hours or more will be high time instructors, or cargo dogs flying Caravans. Those Caravan pilots often make pretty good money (to keep them there flying in the "sticks"), and they won't leave for a $16,000 a year job flying a CRJ. This will also make regional flying more expensive for the legacies, which may make them rethink about dumping smaller mainline planes for 76 seaters. A win win for everyone---higher pay for new FOs, on fewer regional planes. The passengers will like it, (no more sitting next to huge Samoan dudes on 3 hour flights in smaller RJs) and the flight crews will like the higher pay.

Next, could we get a mandatory retirement age for stews?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I'm sure the pilots already hired with less than 1,500 hours would be grandfathered in. Ex post facto laws are unconstitutional.

1,500 hours sounds like a realistic starting point to me.

I don't think they're criminalizing low-time-pilotry, so I think they'll be safe from the prison system.

 

[pilotyip]

Ive never been impressed with military pilots transfering to civilian. Myself included.

We are very good at what we do but when we go to civilian, we may as well start from scratch.

My expereinced is just the opposite.
We are not a great target for the military pilot, but about 30% of our hires are military trained pilots. We like to hire them because of a higher percentage successfully complete training, like one failure of 47 new hires and the civilian side it is like 14 failures out of 119 hires. In addition, no military pilot has needed additional IOE time or had any problem going through upgrade. This includes Helo pilots, which normally on the second sim session, blow their fixed wing non-turbine civilian counter parts out of the water. Side subject, but I can not understand the airlines hiring department prejudice against Helo time, they are fantastic sticks and we are lucky to get them.

 

[Lear70]

Next, could we get a mandatory retirement age for stews?


Bye Bye--General Lee

That's the funniest thing I've seen on this board all week...

 

[DrewBlows]

The military vs. civilian debate is pointless to argue. The answer is you hire the person who can make intelligent decisions, be pleasant to work with for multiple days at a time, and who can pass training...in that order. Back ground gets you to the interview, your personality will determine the things I detailed above.

Requiring an ATP will do very little to change the quality of new hires unless the training standards to obtain the ATP are changed to emphasize human factors and decision making. This, of course, is only my opinion.

 

[Bringupthebird]

I think this is great. The regionals will have to bring up pay, since pilots with 1500 hours or more will be high time instructors, or cargo dogs flying Caravans. Those Caravan pilots often make pretty good money (to keep them there flying in the "sticks"), and they won't leave for a $16,000 a year job flying a CRJ. This will also make regional flying more expensive for the legacies, which may make them rethink about dumping smaller mainline planes for 76 seaters. A win win for everyone---higher pay for new FOs, on fewer regional planes. The passengers will like it, (no more sitting next to huge Samoan dudes on 3 hour flights in smaller RJs) and the flight crews will like the higher pay.

Next, could we get a mandatory retirement age for stews?


Bye Bye--General Lee

More likely, they will just cut flying to marginal cities if it costs them more than they will make flying them. There will be fewer jobs which pay more, and I would expect the ripple effect to continue up the chain to affect narrow body positions as well if there are fewer passengers fed to meet them.

As much as folks gripe about deregulation, it provided many of the jobs we pilots have, albeit at lower pay. The more likely scenario is the same lousy pay remaining with consolidation acting as the Sword of Damocles countering any supply and demand leverage pilots may gain because of it.

This is a win for the IGM's and the guys who have yet to over-invest in their flying careers and still have time to pursue other things. Margins are very thin in the airline biz and many will simply choose to do less of what loses them money.

 

[livin'thesim]

This will kill bridge programs, which is what needed to happen.

 

[ualdriver]

More likely, they will just cut flying to marginal cities if it costs them more than they will make flying them. There will be fewer jobs which pay more, and I would expect the ripple effect to continue up the chain to affect narrow body positions as well if there are fewer passengers fed to meet them.

As much as folks gripe about deregulation, it provided many of the jobs we pilots have, albeit at lower pay. The more likely scenario is the same lousy pay remaining with consolidation acting as the Sword of Damocles countering any supply and demand leverage pilots may gain because of it.

1) I'm not sure I buy that argument. Pilot costs are too small a cost of the total operation (around 2% at a major airline, probably less at a regional) to see large scale service reductions solely because they now have to pay entry-level co-pilots 40 grand-ish a year (my guess) instead of 20K. Future fluctuating jet fuel costs are going to have a greater effect on what markets airlines serve in the future than this legislation.

2) I'm wondering if this 1500 hr. ATP deal is going to stick. Don't get me wrong, 200 hr. Commercial pilots have no business sitting in the right seat of an airliner, but if I were a betting man, I'd bet that ATP requirement is going to be reduced. Maybe to 1000 hours or similar. Maybe they'll tie this "mentoring" program I keep hearing about into it. Maybe they'll make "low time" guys (to be defined) fly with a "high time" mentors (i.e. a high time guy with a clean training record with lots of Captain time) until the "low time" guy hits some sort of experience hurdle, kind of like we do with new guys in a seat and LCAs. Maybe they will make an "LCA lite" position?

The above is complete speculation on my part but I don't see how the U.S. airline industry can produce enough 1500 hr. pilots to satisfy demand after the current (admittedly huge) glut of pilots gets eaten up, say 10 years down the road. The ATA will be crying about that and costs and will probably influence the final version of this legislation, just like ALPA will.

 

[General Lee]

What does 1500 hours do for anyone? I have interviewed a USAF pilot leaving active service with less than 1500 hours after 10 years of service, but it was all MEL turbo jet, mostly EC-135. By this standard he could not fly in the right seat of a commuter 121 airplane. But Joe CFI with 1501 hours, 4 MEL would take his place. Who would you rather have in the right seat? About helo pilots where would they fit into this proposal.

What does 1500 hours min do? It keeps away the 250 hour "Empty Nipple" rich kid wonders. Boy, Gulftream INTL will go away after this is implemented. Wages will go up, and FedEx Caravan pilots will be in high demand at all of the regionals.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

More likely, they will just cut flying to marginal cities if it costs them more than they will make flying them. There will be fewer jobs which pay more, and I would expect the ripple effect to continue up the chain to affect narrow body positions as well if there are fewer passengers fed to meet them.

As much as folks gripe about deregulation, it provided many of the jobs we pilots have, albeit at lower pay. The more likely scenario is the same lousy pay remaining with consolidation acting as the Sword of Damocles countering any supply and demand leverage pilots may gain because of it.

This is a win for the IGM's and the guys who have yet to over-invest in their flying careers and still have time to pursue other things. Margins are very thin in the airline biz and many will simply choose to do less of what loses them money.

Doubt it. Ever heard of EAS routes? Even guys flying Great Lakes BE1900s will have to have those hours when hired, and smaller cities will want their transportation links. There may be fewer flights as you say, but towns will pay airlines to have links. Why does Great Lakes go to Wolf Point, MT? Because the Gov't pays them to do so. And Great Lakes only gives the Captains Jepps BTW----that should be looked into also.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[JumpersAway]

I think this is great. The regionals will have to bring up pay, since pilots with 1500 hours or more will be high time instructors, or cargo dogs flying Caravans. Those Caravan pilots often make pretty good money (to keep them there flying in the "sticks"), and they won't leave for a $16,000 a year job flying a CRJ. This will also make regional flying more expensive for the legacies, which may make them rethink about dumping smaller mainline planes for 76 seaters. A win win for everyone---higher pay for new FOs, on fewer regional planes. The passengers will like it, (no more sitting next to huge Samoan dudes on 3 hour flights in smaller RJs) and the flight crews will like the higher pay.

Next, could we get a mandatory retirement age for stews?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Your thinking is flawed. This only works if DELTA ALPA sets the standard, and the limit, to who flies for Delta as a connection carrier. If one regional ups the pay, and thus isn't competative anymore, Delta simply finds another regional carrier. Or, they simply start another just to fit their business model (Compass and Mid Atlantic). Either way, the wages stay low. None of the flying that was lost by any of the other "non competative" regional carriers ever went back to mainline- and there have been plenty that have tanked and provided the opportunity.

General, this is something that BOTH sides of the fence have to work on......it's the simple, ugly truth and the only fix- period....

 

[Bringupthebird]

How many EAS routes are there? I'd suspect about 100 in the country. (actually 106 plus about 40 in Alaska according to Wikipedia). Not a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

Long term this could be a good thing, but there will be more short-term pain at all levels that folks are ignoring.

 

[cjdriver]

What does 1500 hours min do? It keeps away the 250 hour "Empty Nipple" rich kid wonders. Boy, Gulftream INTL will go away after this is implemented. Wages will go up, and FedEx Caravan pilots will be in high demand at all of the regionals.


Bye Bye--General Lee

There's four great reasons to do it.

 

[waka]

Case in point? Almost every regional would have been unable to fill classes the last 3 years of hiring before this recession if the ATP would have been required. Be patient, you'll see...

nah, the only reason that is true is because of the low pay and QOL and more experienced pilots didn't want the crappy jobs. There are/will always be plenty of pilots with an ATP.

 

[macdu]

How about some standards to regulate flight schools. One of the reasons why pilot salaries continue to decline is that there are UNLIMITED supplies of pilots. There is always a 22yr kid with no obligations ready to take your job for $20K/yr. Look around, there are 3 or 4 flight schools on every field. Anybody with $40K can be a pilot. Toughen up on the flight schools and toughen up on the FAR141 standards will not only improve safety, but also limit the supplies of pilots (which will improve salaries in the long run).

It's simple economics. I agree. The flight schools need to some how be restricted. I have no idea how you might be able to do that in our country but it is just plain too easy to get technically "qualified" to work at a 121 carrier. Maybe limit the commercial and ATP tickets to a select few schools in the country, but, allow the current private, sport, instrument training to be pursued at your local FBO.

Here in China, where I am now. Two flight schools, that's it. It's simple economics!$