Look before you leap, NJASAP!

[Ultra Grump]

Mooneymite -

I asked this before, and received no response, so here it is again:

I'm trying to see your ultimate motivation here. Do you want us to become ALPA, or stay IBT? I'm guessing you want to stay IBT. Why are ALPA and IBT your shining examples of trade unionism?

What have the IBT done to improve the piloting profession?

What has their clout accomplished for us (and in so doing, provided a return on our dues investment)? And by "us," I mean fractional pilots, not "unionized labor" in general.

How does our decertification from the Teamsters result in weakening organized labor, when by definition we are still organized?

The Teamsters withdrew from the AFL-CIO. Is that not weakening organized labor? How do you know we won't be affiliating with the AFL-CIO when we become NJASAP? Would that offset leaving the IBT in your eyes?

How will our staying with the IBT accomplish the "house-cleaning" you say it needs? We sent a guy to the Airline Division to try to do that, and he resigned in disgust after just a year.

We've tried and failed to work within the IBT framework. That framework is designed for truck-drivers, not pilots.

 

[netjetwife]

....What has their clout accomplished for us (and in so doing, provided a return on our dues investment)? And by "us," I mean fractional pilots, not "unionized labor" in general....

How does our decertification from the Teamsters result in weakening organized labor, when by definition we are still organized?

How will our staying with the IBT accomplish the "house-cleaning" you say it needs? We sent a guy to the Airline Division to try to do that, and he resigned in disgust after just a year. ...

Very good points, UG! And as ML learned when trying to strengthen the Airline Division, the IBT isn't interested in recruiting pilots. Their main objective is to organize ramp workers. That's fine; they can help those workers and NJASAP will continue to make the frac industry stronger. In planning the future we have to accurately asses the situation with the Teamsters. Not as we would like it to be, but as it actually is.

 

[Helmsalee]

Give MM a break. He has not said that IBT or ALPA are what we need. He is only concerned with the fragmentation of labor in general. NJASAP is not his enemy.He just hope we do not bury our heads in the sand and ignore the rest of the world. It seems to me that Griz agrees with him on this.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Except that he's very quick to point out what a bad idea NJASAP is, but offers no better solution.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Give MM a break. He has not said that IBT or ALPA are what we need. He is only concerned with the fragmentation of labor in general. NJASAP is not his enemy.He just hope we do not bury our heads in the sand and ignore the rest of the world. It seems to me that Griz agrees with him on this.

As much as I despise unions in aviation, I made the statement a long time ago that fragmenting the labor group was going to do nothing but hurt the NJ pilots in the long run and the efforts of the FLOPS pilots in the short run.

That statement was made based on basic business principals and nothing more. The only thing to be gained is $$ locally, but in the process you are giving up the strength that only the national affiliation can provide.

I still hate to see a union on the property, but at the same time, splitting off when the ecomomy is so fragile and the industy is taking a step back seems ludicrous.

 

[B19 Flyer]

In planning the future we have to accurately asses the situation with the Teamsters. Not as we would like it to be, but as it actually is.

What's this "WE" stuff? You talk like you have a say in the matter.

Are you not just a pilot's wife with dumb opinions like the one you wrote below?

 

[fischman]

Looks who's being disrespectful now...

 

[netjetwife]

It's just coming up on one month since NJASAP debuted their plan to represent the NJ pilots. 80% of the cards have been turned in already and they're still being mailed to NJASAP. That awesome show of unity bodes well for the future. Not bad for a "splinter" group, huh.... NJW

 

[brokeflyer]

Mooneymite -

I asked this before, and received no response, so here it is again:

I'm trying to see your ultimate motivation here. Do you want us to become ALPA, or stay IBT? I'm guessing you want to stay IBT. Why are ALPA and IBT your shining examples of trade unionism?

What have the IBT done to improve the piloting profession?

What has their clout accomplished for us (and in so doing, provided a return on our dues investment)? And by "us," I mean fractional pilots, not "unionized labor" in general.

How does our decertification from the Teamsters result in weakening organized labor, when by definition we are still organized?

The Teamsters withdrew from the AFL-CIO. Is that not weakening organized labor? How do you know we won't be affiliating with the AFL-CIO when we become NJASAP? Would that offset leaving the IBT in your eyes?

How will our staying with the IBT accomplish the "house-cleaning" you say it needs? We sent a guy to the Airline Division to try to do that, and he resigned in disgust after just a year.

We've tried and failed to work within the IBT framework. That framework is designed for truck-drivers, not pilots.

I wanna do what b19 does......she sounds like a true pro that should be proud.

lol all you do is bash unions.....well i think you non-union job sucks canal water....how ya like that??

just trying to speak your language.

 

[Mooneymite]

Mooneymite -

I asked this before, and received no response, so here it is again:

I'm trying to see your ultimate motivation here. Do you want us to become ALPA, or stay IBT? I'm guessing you want to stay IBT. Why are ALPA and IBT your shining examples of trade unionism?

What have the IBT done to improve the piloting profession?

What has their clout accomplished for us (and in so doing, provided a return on our dues investment)? And by "us," I mean fractional pilots, not "unionized labor" in general.

How does our decertification from the Teamsters result in weakening organized labor, when by definition we are still organized?

The Teamsters withdrew from the AFL-CIO. Is that not weakening organized labor? How do you know we won't be affiliating with the AFL-CIO when we become NJASAP? Would that offset leaving the IBT in your eyes?

How will our staying with the IBT accomplish the "house-cleaning" you say it needs? We sent a guy to the Airline Division to try to do that, and he resigned in disgust after just a year.

We've tried and failed to work within the IBT framework. That framework is designed for truck-drivers, not pilots.

Sorry for the long hiatus. I'm on vacation. A nice vacation that I have largely due to the efforts of my union!

Is the IBT the answer? Maybe a part of the answer.
Is the ALPA the answer? Maybe a part of the answer.

What has the IBT done for the pilot profession? It is maintining an environment where labor has some influence in Washington.

I have a tough time answering some of your questions because they beg the question of "where do I really want to go?".

As you may have guessed, I have a dream. That dream can only become reality through a strong, unified union representing all pilots and affiliated with all working people.

Let me tell you a little story about two of my nephews. One graduated from college, took $90K and went to law school; the other graduated from college, took $90K and got his pilot ratings. Three years later, the nephew who went to law school starts her new job at $140,000 with great benefits and her employer will be helping to pay off her education loan. The nephew who got his ratings starts his new job at $20K, pays for his training and has virtually no benefits.

My neighbor hires guys right out of college. He complains that he has to pay $60K for numbskulls with no experience, but he can hire highly trained pilots with great experience for $30K.

What’s wrong with our profession? Does it only attract nutcases?

My dream? I think it is time for pilots to stop fighting and fractionalizing and come together and form a labor cartel.

Do you know what the difference is between a multi-million dollar airplane and paper-weight? The difference is a pilot. That pilot is more important than the fuel which has quadrupled in cost while the cost of a pilot is now plummeting.

When will pilots “get smart”? When will we stop bickering amongst ourselves and come together? When will we stop diluting our power and fractionalizing?

The answer can be found at the beginning of organized labor history. We will form a true union when we have suffered enough. When we are sick and tired of being mistreated.

In the meantime, the beatings will continue.

 

[fischman]

I have the answer

National seniority list.

 

[Mooneymite]

Give MM a break. He has not said that IBT or ALPA are what we need. He is only concerned with the fragmentation of labor in general. NJASAP is not his enemy.He just hope we do not bury our heads in the sand and ignore the rest of the world. It seems to me that Griz agrees with him on this.

Thank you.

 

[flyjetspeed]

National seniority list.

YUP, based on date of FIRST SOLO!!!!

 

[flyjetspeed]

What’s wrong with our profession? Does it only attract nutcases?

What a GREAT title for a new thread!

 

[Schrode]

82% in 1 month. NetJets Pilots are still united and very able to represent themselves.