Logging time question?

[K.V.]

Ok... Black and White. There's only two instances in the regulation that alow you to log PIC all of the time (both pilots can log PIC).

1. while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate. This does not apply to you and your opperation.

2. all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor. This does not apply to you or your opperation.

Black and White. Both of you cannot log PIC at the same time. End of discussion!

This thread was drilled into the ground 4 pages ago!

 

[siucavflight]

Ok... Black and White. There's only two instances in the regulation that alow you to log PIC all of the time (both pilots can log PIC).

1. while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate. This does not apply to you and your opperation.

2. all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor. This does not apply to you or your opperation.

Black and White. Both of you cannot log PIC at the same time. End of discussion!

This thread was drilled into the ground 4 pages ago!

I agree with you, and yet you have avbug calling me stupid, dense and incapable of flying the gulfstream because I do not see where the regs say that you can both log PIC.

I have realized that the almighty avbug is wrong, and instead of admitting it he calls me stupid.

 

[AC560]

I agree with you, and yet you have avbug calling me stupid, dense and incapable of flying the gulfstream because I do not see where the regs say that you can both log PIC.

Avbug posted the relevant interpretations a couple pages ago. He along with several other people have given you the answers and the supporting regulations/opinions. But as a final go because I enjoy reading these threads every 6 months when they come up.

The aircraft requires a crew of 2 and both are typed/current/etc.

Pilot A is PIC as per part 1 (his name is on flight plan). He can log all time as PIC whether he touches controls or not.

Pilot B is flying the leg but not PIC per part 1. He can log all the time as PIC for which he is sole manipulator of controls.

Thus if the pilot listed as PIC on the flight plan does not touch the controls, both pilots can log PIC for the flight legally.

If however the pilot who is acting as PIC (Pilot A) under part 1 also is the sole manipulator, then the pilot who is not acting as PIC (Pilot B) under part 1 and is not the sole manipulator can only log SIC time.

So the answer is depending on how you structure the responsibilities on the flight and who touches the controls determines whether or not both pilots are logging PIC or one of the pilots is logging SIC.

This is the same logic which allows a pilot and a safety pilot to both log PIC time in a C172. The safety pilot agrees to PIC under part 1 and the pilot flying is the sole manipulator. If the safety pilot does not want to be PIC under part 1 then he is entitled to log SIC time (even though a C172 is not a multi crew aircraft).

 

[siucavflight]

Thank you AC, and as I have stated at my company the guy whos name is on the flight plan sits in the left seat, he is the one that does all the flying. The guy in the right seat does everything else, the guy in the left seat logs PIC, and the guy in the right seat logs SIC. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

That is what I was getting at, avbug was posting a reg that clearly stated that with the operation that we are doing both pilots can not log PIC, and yet he was telling me that we could because of the reg.

So in the en avbug was wrong, I will hold out for an apology, however I doubt that will be coming.

 

[AC560]

So in the en avbug was wrong, I will hold out for an apology, however I doubt that will be coming.

I read most of Avbug's posts and don't see anything he wrote or posted which is incorrect. You two girls feel free to fight but I think he put up a lot of good information for you.

 

[K.V.]

Pilot A is PIC as per part 1 (his name is on flight plan). He can log all time as PIC whether he touches controls or not.

Pilot B is flying the leg but not PIC per part 1. He can log all the time as PIC for which he is sole manipulator of controls.

Thus if the pilot listed as PIC on the flight plan does not touch the controls, both pilots can log PIC for the flight legally.

Where do you get this crap from? Where in Part 1 does it address the relevance of who's name is on the flight plan? Where, in any of the regs, does it say that if your name is on the flight plan that you can log PIC all of the time? What if there is no flight plan? What if it's a VFR flight? I'm tired of people making $hit up.

 

[AC560]

Where do you get this crap from? Where in Part 1 does it address the relevance of who's name is on the flight plan?

It doesn't it says it in 91.169/91.153 in specific.

91.153(a)(3) The full name and address of the pilot in command or, in the case of a formation flight, the formation commander.

Whomever is listed on the flight plan is PIC under part 1.

Where, in any of the regs, does it say that if your name is on the flight plan that you can log PIC all of the time?

In the case of an ATP you listed the relevant regulation yourself, so that would be where, in any of the regs. That though is not germane to our discussion though. Who is PIC under part 1 is relevant for logging PIC in certain circumstances generally (as we discuss below).

What if there is no flight plan? What if it's a VFR flight?

If you have no flight plan there still is a PIC under part 1 with a flight plan it just makes it clear as to who it is.

I'm tired of people making $hit up.

Nobody has made anything up, clear regulations and Counsel opinions have been posted. Anyone who takes the time to actually read them will see the matter is very clear and as I (and Avbug) have described. If you have issues then you need to write to Philip Pompilio the attorney in the Chief Counsels office who disagrees with your logic.

[FONT=&quot]December 8, 1993[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]MR. STEVE HICKS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]711 North C [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Livingston, MT 59047[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dear Mr. Hicks: [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This office received a memorandum from the Helena Flight Standards District Office on November 22, 1993, requesting a response to the following inquiry:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Two pilots (one private and one commercial, neither of which is a CFI) are flying cross-country VFR taking turns flying under the hood. How does the safety pilot log his time since he is a required crew person under the regulations?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The memorandum indicated that you presented this inquiry to the Helena FSDO,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and the FSDO Manager requested that this office respond directly to you. Accordingly, the response to your inquiry is set forth below.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Prior to providing a specific response to your inquiry, it is appropriate to[/FONT][FONT=&quot]note here the distinction between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. PIC, as defined in FAR 1.1, means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time. FAR 61.51 pertains to the logging of PIC flight time, and it provides that a private or commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Therefore, while it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time simultaneously. PIC flight time may be logged by both the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time in accordance with FAR 1.1, and the by the pilot who acts as the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is rated under FAR 61.51.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Responding specifically to your inquiry, the pilot that is under the hood may log PIC time for that time in which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft, provided that he or she is rated for that aircraft. The appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently log as second-in-command (SIC) that time during which he or she is acting as safety pilot.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]However, the two pilots may, prior to initiating the flight, agree that the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). In order to assist you further in this regard, enclosed please find a prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under simulated instrument flight conditions.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I hope this response satisfactorily answers your questions.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sincerely,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Philip Pompilio[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Staff Attorney[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]FAA Regional Office[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Office of the Chief Counsel[/FONT]

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Ha, I know what you are saying, but I am honestly pretty young, with pretty low time, so I want to at least log the 1000 hours of turbine PIC before I quit logging every flight.

You claim low time, yet you have 5K listed.

Yes I consider 5K with a Gulfstream type sort of low. And based on the multitude of responses no one is that sure of how to log their flight time.

5K with a type in a GV is not so uncommon, granted most have at least 1K+ in turbine PIC, if not more an/or time in the right seat.

They hired me as a captain, we are all captains, they sent me to school, paid for my type and my ATP. I do fly half of the legs as "Captain" and I log PIC on those legs, but I have been logging SIC on the legs that I am not flying. Still do not know what is right.

Something doesn't add up here. How'd you get hired as a captain on a GV with seemingly no experience in them, let alone LESS than 1,000 hrs. of turbine PIC.

Your stories seem to fluctuate quite a bit. Maybe "Lynxman" can come to your defense.

Have fun. You've got enough information in this thread to arrive at a conclusion and make a decision. Hoepfully.

 

[cjdriver]

For a question that some say is so cut and dry there sure area a lot of questions on it.

I think that I am maybe not explaining myself well. They hired me as a captain, we are all captains, they sent me to school, paid for my type and my ATP. I do fly half of the legs as "Captain" and I log PIC on those legs, but I have been logging SIC on the legs that I am not flying. Still do not know what is right.

If you're doing this part 91, then you're doing it correctly. This is how it's done in almost every corporate flight dept. Most bona fide flight depts. hire captains and have them swap legs.

 

[blzr]

Here's one... If the "Chief Pilot only holds an Multi-engine-instrument-commercial rating with the type and I am ATP with type, how does that change the way I log the time? BTW, I am lazy, so I only log pic. I have all the SIC time I really need, even though we swap seats every leg.

 

[K.V.]

It doesn't it says it in 91.169/91.153 in specific.

91.153(a)(3) The full name and address of the pilot in command or, in the case of a formation flight, the formation commander.

Whomever is listed on the flight plan is PIC under part 1.

In the case of an ATP you listed the relevant regulation yourself, so that would be where, in any of the regs. That though is not germane to our discussion though. Who is PIC under part 1 is relevant for logging PIC in certain circumstances generally (as we discuss below).


If you have no flight plan there still is a PIC under part 1 with a flight plan it just makes it clear as to who it is.

Once again, you're making $hit up! I ask you where in Part 1, next to PIC, it states anything about flight plans, and you respond by citing a completely different and irrelivant regulation

Oh yah, and thanks for dropping that great knowledge about both pilots being able to log PIC under the ATP rule...but that's not what I asked you about.

Let me give you an example. At my operation we're all qualified and current PIC's. We swap legs, which is to say that we swap responsibilities and authorities. Now, if I so happen to file both legs that morning out of either a courtesy or convenience, that doesn't mean that I can log PIC for both legs.

And by the way, when you say things like "it dosen't say it in specific", then chances are...you're making it up.

 

[AC560]

Once again, you're making $hit up! I ask you where in Part 1, next to PIC, it states anything about flight plans, and you respond by citing a completely different and irrelivant regulation

No I responded quite clearly agreeing with you and stating why it was relevant. If you again read the legal interpretation posted it clearly states why this is relevant and the differences between being PIC and logging PIC. PIC is defined two ways (one is under 61.51 and one is under 1.1). One has to determine who is PIC under 1.1, how does one do that the easiest way is by looking at whose name is on the flight plan. One has to determine who is PIC under 61.51 which is generally the persons whose hands are on the controls.

Oh yah, and thanks for dropping that great knowledge about both pilots being able to log PIC under the ATP rule...but that's not what I asked you about.

I believe your exact question was "Where, in any of the regs, does it say that if your name is on the flight plan that you can log PIC all of the time?" to which I gave an answer. Both pilots by the way cannot always log PIC using the "ATP rule" it depends on the qualifications of all the pilots in question.

Let me give you an example. At my operation we're all qualified and current PIC's. We swap legs, which is to say that we swap responsibilities and authorities. Now, if I so happen to file both legs that morning out of either a courtesy or convenience, that doesn't mean that I can log PIC for both legs.

Leg 1 you are PIC under part 1 but not the sole manipulator. In this scenario both pilots can legally log PIC.
Leg 2 you are not PIC under part 1 but are the sole manipulator. In this scenario both pilots can legally log PIC.
Leg 3 you are the PIC under 1 and the sole manipulator. In this scenario you can log PIC but the other pilot can only log SIC.

And by the way, when you say things like "it dosen't say it in specific", then chances are...you're making it up.

I never have used this phrase and I have been very specific in my responses and provided again documentation in support of what I am stating. You either are incapable of understanding this information or are just looking to kill time flaming on the Internet.

 

[K.V.]

One has to determine who is PIC under 1.1, how does one do that the easiest way is by looking at whose name is on the flight plan.

No..The easiest way is to say, "your leg, you're PIC", under part 1.

Once again, part 1 says NOTHING about whos name is on the flight plan.

Leg 1 you are PIC under part 1 but not the sole manipulator. In this scenario both pilots can legally log PIC.

This is what I'm talking about. Where do you get this crap from??? Which reg? Specifically!

 

[AC560]

This is what I'm talking about. Where do you get this crap from??? Which reg? Specifically!

61.51 and the explanation of how this works under 61.51 is here again listed for you.

[FONT=&quot]December 8, 1993[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]MR. STEVE HICKS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]711 North C [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Livingston, MT 59047[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dear Mr. Hicks: [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This office received a memorandum from the Helena Flight Standards District Office on November 22, 1993, requesting a response to the following inquiry:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Two pilots (one private and one commercial, neither of which is a CFI) are flying cross-country VFR taking turns flying under the hood. How does the safety pilot log his time since he is a required crew person under the regulations?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The memorandum indicated that you presented this inquiry to the Helena FSDO,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and the FSDO Manager requested that this office respond directly to you. Accordingly, the response to your inquiry is set forth below.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Prior to providing a specific response to your inquiry, it is appropriate to[/FONT][FONT=&quot]note here the distinction between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. PIC, as defined in FAR 1.1, means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time. FAR 61.51 pertains to the logging of PIC flight time, and it provides that a private or commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Therefore, while it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time simultaneously. PIC flight time may be logged by both the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time in accordance with FAR 1.1, and the by the pilot who acts as the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is rated under FAR 61.51.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Responding specifically to your inquiry, the pilot that is under the hood may log PIC time for that time in which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft, provided that he or she is rated for that aircraft. The appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently log as second-in-command (SIC) that time during which he or she is acting as safety pilot.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]However, the two pilots may, prior to initiating the flight, agree that the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). In order to assist you further in this regard, enclosed please find a prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under simulated instrument flight conditions.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I hope this response satisfactorily answers your questions.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sincerely,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Philip Pompilio[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Staff Attorney[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]FAA Regional Office[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Office of the Chief Counsel

[/FONT]

 

[say again]

Putting your name on a flight plan does not depict who the actual PIC is. I've filed flight plans as an SIC, using my name.