Logging time question?

[K.V.]

Pilot A is PIC as per part 1 (his name is on flight plan). He can log all time as PIC whether he touches controls or not.

Pilot B is flying the leg but not PIC per part 1. He can log all the time as PIC for which he is sole manipulator of controls.

Thus if the pilot listed as PIC on the flight plan does not touch the controls, both pilots can log PIC for the flight legally.

Where do you get this crap from? Where in Part 1 does it address the relevance of who's name is on the flight plan? Where, in any of the regs, does it say that if your name is on the flight plan that you can log PIC all of the time? What if there is no flight plan? What if it's a VFR flight? I'm tired of people making $hit up.

 

[AC560]

Where do you get this crap from? Where in Part 1 does it address the relevance of who's name is on the flight plan?

It doesn't it says it in 91.169/91.153 in specific.

91.153(a)(3) The full name and address of the pilot in command or, in the case of a formation flight, the formation commander.

Whomever is listed on the flight plan is PIC under part 1.

Where, in any of the regs, does it say that if your name is on the flight plan that you can log PIC all of the time?

In the case of an ATP you listed the relevant regulation yourself, so that would be where, in any of the regs. That though is not germane to our discussion though. Who is PIC under part 1 is relevant for logging PIC in certain circumstances generally (as we discuss below).

What if there is no flight plan? What if it's a VFR flight?

If you have no flight plan there still is a PIC under part 1 with a flight plan it just makes it clear as to who it is.

I'm tired of people making $hit up.

Nobody has made anything up, clear regulations and Counsel opinions have been posted. Anyone who takes the time to actually read them will see the matter is very clear and as I (and Avbug) have described. If you have issues then you need to write to Philip Pompilio the attorney in the Chief Counsels office who disagrees with your logic.

[FONT=&quot]December 8, 1993[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]MR. STEVE HICKS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]711 North C [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Livingston, MT 59047[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dear Mr. Hicks: [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This office received a memorandum from the Helena Flight Standards District Office on November 22, 1993, requesting a response to the following inquiry:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Two pilots (one private and one commercial, neither of which is a CFI) are flying cross-country VFR taking turns flying under the hood. How does the safety pilot log his time since he is a required crew person under the regulations?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The memorandum indicated that you presented this inquiry to the Helena FSDO,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and the FSDO Manager requested that this office respond directly to you. Accordingly, the response to your inquiry is set forth below.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Prior to providing a specific response to your inquiry, it is appropriate to[/FONT][FONT=&quot]note here the distinction between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. PIC, as defined in FAR 1.1, means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time. FAR 61.51 pertains to the logging of PIC flight time, and it provides that a private or commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Therefore, while it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time simultaneously. PIC flight time may be logged by both the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time in accordance with FAR 1.1, and the by the pilot who acts as the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is rated under FAR 61.51.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Responding specifically to your inquiry, the pilot that is under the hood may log PIC time for that time in which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft, provided that he or she is rated for that aircraft. The appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently log as second-in-command (SIC) that time during which he or she is acting as safety pilot.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]However, the two pilots may, prior to initiating the flight, agree that the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). In order to assist you further in this regard, enclosed please find a prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under simulated instrument flight conditions.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I hope this response satisfactorily answers your questions.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sincerely,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Philip Pompilio[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Staff Attorney[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]FAA Regional Office[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Office of the Chief Counsel[/FONT]

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Ha, I know what you are saying, but I am honestly pretty young, with pretty low time, so I want to at least log the 1000 hours of turbine PIC before I quit logging every flight.

You claim low time, yet you have 5K listed.

Yes I consider 5K with a Gulfstream type sort of low. And based on the multitude of responses no one is that sure of how to log their flight time.

5K with a type in a GV is not so uncommon, granted most have at least 1K+ in turbine PIC, if not more an/or time in the right seat.

They hired me as a captain, we are all captains, they sent me to school, paid for my type and my ATP. I do fly half of the legs as "Captain" and I log PIC on those legs, but I have been logging SIC on the legs that I am not flying. Still do not know what is right.

Something doesn't add up here. How'd you get hired as a captain on a GV with seemingly no experience in them, let alone LESS than 1,000 hrs. of turbine PIC.

Your stories seem to fluctuate quite a bit. Maybe "Lynxman" can come to your defense.

Have fun. You've got enough information in this thread to arrive at a conclusion and make a decision. Hoepfully.

 

[cjdriver]

For a question that some say is so cut and dry there sure area a lot of questions on it.

I think that I am maybe not explaining myself well. They hired me as a captain, we are all captains, they sent me to school, paid for my type and my ATP. I do fly half of the legs as "Captain" and I log PIC on those legs, but I have been logging SIC on the legs that I am not flying. Still do not know what is right.

If you're doing this part 91, then you're doing it correctly. This is how it's done in almost every corporate flight dept. Most bona fide flight depts. hire captains and have them swap legs.

 

[blzr]

Here's one... If the "Chief Pilot only holds an Multi-engine-instrument-commercial rating with the type and I am ATP with type, how does that change the way I log the time? BTW, I am lazy, so I only log pic. I have all the SIC time I really need, even though we swap seats every leg.

 

[K.V.]

It doesn't it says it in 91.169/91.153 in specific.

91.153(a)(3) The full name and address of the pilot in command or, in the case of a formation flight, the formation commander.

Whomever is listed on the flight plan is PIC under part 1.

In the case of an ATP you listed the relevant regulation yourself, so that would be where, in any of the regs. That though is not germane to our discussion though. Who is PIC under part 1 is relevant for logging PIC in certain circumstances generally (as we discuss below).


If you have no flight plan there still is a PIC under part 1 with a flight plan it just makes it clear as to who it is.

Once again, you're making $hit up! I ask you where in Part 1, next to PIC, it states anything about flight plans, and you respond by citing a completely different and irrelivant regulation

Oh yah, and thanks for dropping that great knowledge about both pilots being able to log PIC under the ATP rule...but that's not what I asked you about.

Let me give you an example. At my operation we're all qualified and current PIC's. We swap legs, which is to say that we swap responsibilities and authorities. Now, if I so happen to file both legs that morning out of either a courtesy or convenience, that doesn't mean that I can log PIC for both legs.

And by the way, when you say things like "it dosen't say it in specific", then chances are...you're making it up.

 

[AC560]

Once again, you're making $hit up! I ask you where in Part 1, next to PIC, it states anything about flight plans, and you respond by citing a completely different and irrelivant regulation

No I responded quite clearly agreeing with you and stating why it was relevant. If you again read the legal interpretation posted it clearly states why this is relevant and the differences between being PIC and logging PIC. PIC is defined two ways (one is under 61.51 and one is under 1.1). One has to determine who is PIC under 1.1, how does one do that the easiest way is by looking at whose name is on the flight plan. One has to determine who is PIC under 61.51 which is generally the persons whose hands are on the controls.

Oh yah, and thanks for dropping that great knowledge about both pilots being able to log PIC under the ATP rule...but that's not what I asked you about.

I believe your exact question was "Where, in any of the regs, does it say that if your name is on the flight plan that you can log PIC all of the time?" to which I gave an answer. Both pilots by the way cannot always log PIC using the "ATP rule" it depends on the qualifications of all the pilots in question.

Let me give you an example. At my operation we're all qualified and current PIC's. We swap legs, which is to say that we swap responsibilities and authorities. Now, if I so happen to file both legs that morning out of either a courtesy or convenience, that doesn't mean that I can log PIC for both legs.

Leg 1 you are PIC under part 1 but not the sole manipulator. In this scenario both pilots can legally log PIC.
Leg 2 you are not PIC under part 1 but are the sole manipulator. In this scenario both pilots can legally log PIC.
Leg 3 you are the PIC under 1 and the sole manipulator. In this scenario you can log PIC but the other pilot can only log SIC.

And by the way, when you say things like "it dosen't say it in specific", then chances are...you're making it up.

I never have used this phrase and I have been very specific in my responses and provided again documentation in support of what I am stating. You either are incapable of understanding this information or are just looking to kill time flaming on the Internet.

 

[K.V.]

One has to determine who is PIC under 1.1, how does one do that the easiest way is by looking at whose name is on the flight plan.

No..The easiest way is to say, "your leg, you're PIC", under part 1.

Once again, part 1 says NOTHING about whos name is on the flight plan.

Leg 1 you are PIC under part 1 but not the sole manipulator. In this scenario both pilots can legally log PIC.

This is what I'm talking about. Where do you get this crap from??? Which reg? Specifically!

 

[AC560]

This is what I'm talking about. Where do you get this crap from??? Which reg? Specifically!

61.51 and the explanation of how this works under 61.51 is here again listed for you.

[FONT=&quot]December 8, 1993[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]MR. STEVE HICKS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]711 North C [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Livingston, MT 59047[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dear Mr. Hicks: [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This office received a memorandum from the Helena Flight Standards District Office on November 22, 1993, requesting a response to the following inquiry:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Two pilots (one private and one commercial, neither of which is a CFI) are flying cross-country VFR taking turns flying under the hood. How does the safety pilot log his time since he is a required crew person under the regulations?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The memorandum indicated that you presented this inquiry to the Helena FSDO,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and the FSDO Manager requested that this office respond directly to you. Accordingly, the response to your inquiry is set forth below.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Prior to providing a specific response to your inquiry, it is appropriate to[/FONT][FONT=&quot]note here the distinction between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. PIC, as defined in FAR 1.1, means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time. FAR 61.51 pertains to the logging of PIC flight time, and it provides that a private or commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Therefore, while it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time simultaneously. PIC flight time may be logged by both the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time in accordance with FAR 1.1, and the by the pilot who acts as the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is rated under FAR 61.51.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Responding specifically to your inquiry, the pilot that is under the hood may log PIC time for that time in which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft, provided that he or she is rated for that aircraft. The appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently log as second-in-command (SIC) that time during which he or she is acting as safety pilot.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]However, the two pilots may, prior to initiating the flight, agree that the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). In order to assist you further in this regard, enclosed please find a prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under simulated instrument flight conditions.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I hope this response satisfactorily answers your questions.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sincerely,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Philip Pompilio[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Staff Attorney[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]FAA Regional Office[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Office of the Chief Counsel

[/FONT]

 

[say again]

Putting your name on a flight plan does not depict who the actual PIC is. I've filed flight plans as an SIC, using my name.

 

[AC560]

No..The easiest way is to say, "your leg, you're PIC", under part 1.

As long as that doesn't contradict the name of the person listed on the flight plan as PIC you are correct.

Once again, part 1 says NOTHING about whos name is on the flight plan.

For the third time I agree with this. Who is on the flight plan though defines who is PIC under part 1. Most commercial flights are done on a flight plan. You can't put Tim as the PIC on the flight plan and then jump in the plane and say Bill you will be PIC under part 1 today.

 

[AC560]

Putting your name on a flight plan does not depict who the actual PIC is. I've filed flight plans as an SIC, using my name.

See 91.153 (the IFR flight plan under 91.169 adds to this base requirement).

§ 91.153 VFR flight plan: Information required.

(a) Information required. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person filing a VFR flight plan shall include in it the following information:
(1) The aircraft identification number and, if necessary, its radio call sign.
(2) The type of the aircraft or, in the case of a formation flight, the type of each aircraft and the number of aircraft in the formation.
(3) The full name and address of the pilot in command or, in the case of a formation flight, the formation commander.

I will agree that it is very common to do what you say. Legally though it is a potential problem.

 

[LJ45]

Putting your name on a flight plan does not depict who the actual PIC is. I've filed flight plans as an SIC, using my name.

I understand when doing that you should list the PIC in the remarks section.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

You claim low time, yet you have 5K listed.



5K with a type in a GV is not so uncommon, granted most have at least 1K+ in turbine PIC, if not more an/or time in the right seat.



Something doesn't add up here. How'd you get hired as a captain on a GV with seemingly no experience in them, let alone LESS than 1,000 hrs. of turbine PIC.

Your stories seem to fluctuate quite a bit. Maybe "Lynxman" can come to your defense.

Have fun. You've got enough information in this thread to arrive at a conclusion and make a decision. Hoepfully.

I agree. Something is fishy.

This gentleman claims 5000 hours but doesn't know how to log flight time.

This gentlman has had 3 jobs, in the last year, which means he has had his logbook gone over by 3 Chief Pilots, but he doesn't know how to log flight time.

This gentleman claims 5000 hours, but just got his ATP with his present job.

If this gentleman flew for American Eagle for 2 years, 2000 hours to log max. 3 months in the Middle East, 300 hours. Lets give him 600 hours at his present job.

This gentleman accumulated 2100 hours, WAY more than AE required, but he doesn't know how to log flight time.

Would you fly with him?

 

[Fly91]

It's absolutely mind boggling that so many people can be so wrong so often on such a simple subject. Moreover, one that's printed so plainly in the regulation. It's not a debatable topic, and it only requires lifting a finger to help one's self to look it up.

You needn't worry about what anyone else thinks, what so-and-so does, or how someone believes it ought to be. The regulation is very, very clear.

Logging pilot in command time is NOT the same as acting as pilot in command. Only one person may ACT as pilot in command at any given time. More than one person may LOG pilot in command at the same time.

Its also mind boggling how poeple, like you, are so ignorant to some things. The FAR doesn't lay down every single rule for pilots to follow. There are loopholes and exceptions to almost every reg.

Two pilots, in a two pilot certified aircraft, CAN log PIC. Part 91 anyway. If instruction is being given by one of the type-rated and ATP rated pilots to the other type-rated pilot, they can both LEGALLY log PIC. This was sent to my flight school in a memo from the FAA legal division in Oklahoma as an interpretation when we all were arguing about this issue long ago.
Part 135 pilots can only do that on dead legs AFTER a Part 135 trip has concluded.

I won't even get into how a pilot sitting in the back seat of say a Cessna 172 can log PIC time when two other pilots are up front.

Kind of like when all of us got our PPL, that check-ride with the FAA/DE was our first PIC time to log (except our solo time whcih was all time as sole manipulator of the controls), and it was also PIC for the examiner.

Actually, 4 pilots sitting in a multi-engine prop plane can ALL log PIC. There's a ton of hour building going on like that, sharing the expenses, cheap multi-engine time.

Figure that one out.

End of argument

 

[LJ45]

Its also mind boggling how poeple, like you, are so ignorant to some things. The FAR doesn't lay down every single rule for pilots to follow. There are loopholes and exceptions to almost every reg.

Two pilots, in a two pilot certified aircraft, CAN log PIC. Part 91 anyway. If instruction is being given by one of the type-rated and ATP rated pilots to the other type-rated pilot, they can both LEGALLY log PIC. This was sent to my flight school in a memo from the FAA legal division in Oklahoma as an interpretation when we all were arguing about this issue long ago.
Part 135 pilots can only do that on dead legs AFTER a Part 135 trip has concluded.

I won't even get into how a pilot sitting in the back seat of say a Cessna 172 can log PIC time when two other pilots are up front.

Kind of like when all of us got our PPL, that check-ride with the FAA/DE was our first PIC time to log (except our solo time whcih was all time as sole manipulator of the controls), and it was also PIC for the examiner.

Actually, 4 pilots sitting in a multi-engine prop plane can ALL log PIC. There's a ton of hour building going on like that, sharing the expenses, cheap multi-engine time.

Figure that one out.

End of argument

popcorn time

 

[Fly91]

This is a good point, I have my ATP, but we operate the Gulfstream part 91, therefore no ATP is required. My chief pilot said that both pilots can log PIC, but he did not really have a reason other than "you just can". I have been logging my trips on the Gulfstream as all SIC when I am in the right seat, but I am wondering if I could be doing it as PIC, I hope it never matters as I hope to stay with this place for a long long time, but just in case I do have to interveiew somewhere I do not want to be questioned on it.

My friend got hired with Turnberry to fly the Challenger 604. He had like 210 hours total flight time in recip airplanes, like 10 hours multi-engine in a Duchess. They typed him and he started flying. He asked me if he should start logging PIC. I said hell no, log like 200 SIC first. Just so later on if another company looks over his book it won't look bad, even though he's typed and certified by the FAA to act as captain Part 91.
He got type-rated on the Global like 1 year later and immediately started logging PIC in that plane.

Your Chief Pilot is wrong, you can't BOTH log PIC, just because its Part 91. But you CAN both log it if one is acting as an instructor and gives you some instruction. As long as he has an ATP.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I won't even get into how a pilot sitting in the back seat of say a Cessna 172 can log PIC time when two other pilots are up front.

An unamed flight school with a ME time building program used to (perhaps still does) have a pilot in the left under the hood (sole manipulator PIC), a safety pilot in the right seat (Acting PIC) and a MEI in the back seat logging PIC as an instructor.

Three pilots logging incredibly questionable PIC. Especially the MEI who's probably asleep in the back.

 

[Fly91]

popcorn time

Another good one for ya.

I was acting as co-pilot (type-rated) during a Fed ride for the flight engineer (747). 2 Feds were on board and both agreed to the question I asked. Unless those to Fed's are morons they said even if a type-rated co-pilot for the company that has NOT yet done a captain upgrade course or a Fed ride or IOE completion to be fully signed off as a captain for the company....they can still log PIC on that plane if they are the sole manipulators of the controls on a non-revenue leg.

Thats how myself and alot of other guys have PIC on that plane. Tons of ferry flights and maintenance trips.

I do what the FAA says, not what companies think the regs are.

 

[Fly91]

An unamed flight school with a ME time building program used to (perhaps still does) have a pilot in the left under the hood (sole manipulator PIC), a safety pilot in the right seat (Acting PIC) and a MEI in the back seat logging PIC as an instructor.

Three pilots logging incredibly questionable PIC. Especially the MEI who's probably asleep in the back.

3 pilots being comm-inst-multi-cfi-cfii-mei
1 pilot comm-instr-multi-cfi-cfii (no mei yet)

Pilot under hood- sole manip, receiving instrument training
Pilot behing him- giving that instru instruction
Safety pilot right seat- safety pilot
Pilot in the back of him- giving him multi instruction

True story. Its being done everywhere.