Logging time question?

[SSDD]

WOW man,

Did you not read any of the stuff Avbug just posted?

It seems like you're just yanking his chain.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Come on guys, this isn't that hard.

What is the purpose of a log book? The purpose is to accurately portray your experience as a pilot.

The question is; does logging PIC when acting as an SIC serve to meet that purpose? The answer is no.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. The only advice I can give is to log what you are actually doing. If, you are acting as PIC (i.e. planning fuel loads, filing flight plans, making go/no-go decisions) and you are qualified, then log PIC. If any of those things aren't true, don't log it.

BTW...you can be the PIC and be in the right seat.

 

[siucavflight]

WOW man,

Did you not read any of the stuff Avbug just posted?

It seems like you're just yanking his chain.

Yes, and I responded to what he posted, I do not think that for our operation the guy in the right seat(I know that seat does not matter, but for us the guy flying always does it from the left seat) does not meet any of the criteria posted.

 

[SSDD]

If you don't feel comfortable, for whatever reason, then don't log it as PIC, but the regs clearly allow it.

 

[siucavflight]

If you don't feel comfortable, for whatever reason, then don't log it as PIC, but the regs clearly allow it.

Where, maybe I am completely dense, but I can not find where they allow for it? Which sentence in there specifically allows for it?

 

[SSDD]

Look at it another way: Which sentence specifically prohibits it?

I'm not talking about what a potential employer might think of this practice, just what the FARs allow.

 

[siucavflight]

Look at it another way: Which sentence specifically prohibits it?

I'm not talking about what a potential employer might think of this practice, just what the FARs allow.

There is nothing that says that you cant, but there is nothing that says that you can. If I were to log it as PIC I want to be able to point to the reg that specifically says that I am allowed to do so.

 

[SSDD]

You are type rated in the airplane, and the sole manipulator of the controls. I'll assume is a real type rating, and not the SIC bs.

 

[ILOVEBEER]

Well, good luck explaining that to a future hiring board. "Well, I'm type rated and was flying the airplane so that means that I'm PIC". I would laugh you right out of the room.

 

[SSDD]

Beerman,

Follow the thread. I stated that just two posts ago.

 

[ILOVEBEER]

Beerman,

Follow the thread. I stated that just two posts ago.

STD - you should heed your own advise. I stated it on the 3 post of this thread.

 

[SSDD]

So why repeat it? We are talking about legality, not what a prospective employer may say.

 

[siucavflight]

You are type rated in the airplane, and the sole manipulator of the controls. I'll assume is a real type rating, and not the SIC bs.

SSDD, yes I am typed in the airplane. But what I am saying is that if I am in the right seat or PNF whatever you want to call it I am not the sloe manipulator of the controls, as the guy who is in the left seat(PF) is. This is where I am running into confusion as the reg does say the sole manipulator of the controls. Thanks again for your input.

 

[NGT]

Find another FAA definition of Pilot In Command.
Find a sole manipulator section on any pilot application.
If you need a lawyer to log your time than you are probably logging it wrong.
Southwest and FedEx specificaly require a Part 1 definition for your application.
Log it however you want but it only takes a minute to read it correctly.

FedEx Qualifications
Pilot Careers | Qualifications

Typical qualifications for consideration as a FedEx pilot.

• Commercial Pilot Certificate with Multi-engine and Instrument rating (without limitations)
• Current ATP Certificate or written
• Current FE Turbojet Rating or written (FEX or Basic/turbojet)
• Must pass FAA mandated drug screen
• Recency and type of experience is considered
• Meet requirements for and currently hold First Class Medical certification
• 20/20 correctable vision
• College Degree from an accredited college or university
• Eligibility for rapid visa issuance, issued by offices in the United States to fly to any FedEx destination.
• Ability to obtain clearance from United States Postal Service for handling or access to U.S. mail, which includes FBI fingerprint check, and candidate must have resided in the United States for the last five consecutive years (except for U.S. military assignments)
• Eligibility for issuance of US Security Clearance
• 1500 hours total fixed-wing time as pilot-in-command (PIC) or second-in-command in multi-engine turbo-prop A/C or jet A/C or combination thereof, including a minimum of 1000 hours total fixed-wing pilot-in-command in multi-engine turbo prop A/C or jet A/C or combination thereof.
  Note: PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls.
  Note: FedEx considers only pilot time in fixed wing aircraft toward minimum qualifications. This does not include simulator, helicopter, flight engineer, bombardier, navigator, RIO, EWO, WSO, NFO, or Special Crew.
• All certificates and ratings required to be U.S.A. FAA issued

Southwest Quals

3 Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" for the purposes of application for employment as the Pilot ultimately responsible for the operation and Safety of the aircraft during flight. The Pilot in Command should also be the Pilot who signed for the aircraft and who is the ultimate authority for the operation of that flight. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander, Evaluator, or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged as "Other Time" will not be considered. When converting taxi time a conversion factor of .3 or 18 minutes, per leg/sortie should be used. These guidelines are imposed by Southwest Airlines for the purpose of standardizing the calculation of flight time.

Happy logging!

 

[Hugh Johnson]

At our company we are all type rated and have current 61.58. We swap PIC and flying responsiblities each leg. Its Part 91 so its pretty simple.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Ha, I know what you are saying, but I am honestly pretty young, with pretty low time, so I want to at least log the 1000 hours of turbine PIC before I quit logging every flight.

Your profile states 5K and you consider that low time and haven't yet figured out how to log PIC/SIC in a crew op?

Y'all been flame-broiled like a whopper.

 

[siucavflight]

Your profile states 5K and you consider that low time and haven't yet figured out how to log PIC/SIC in a crew op?

Y'all been flame-broiled like a whopper.

Yes I consider 5K with a Gulfstream type sort of low. And based on the multitude of responses no one is that sure of how to log their flight time.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Logging PIC as sole manipulator is getting PIC in an quasi-legal way. If you weren't hired to perform captain duties and never sign for the airplane as the designated PIC, then you shouldn't log it as such, even if you're typed. The "sole manipulator" thing was mainly for low time ME pilots to get more experience to meet minimums.

Hey, if your company will allow you to command/sign for the plane (which I doubt since you're new to the airframe), then by all means. But if you fly the right seat, you're the designated SIC and a required crewmember. There can't be two PICs in this operation. You're not flying Cessnas anymore. That sole manipulator crap is for timebuilding in light pistons.

Do what you want. I know you know the rules, you're just looking for enough affirmation to tip your scale. There's obviously a consensus of doubt regarding your questionable logging. When in doubt, be conservative and I think you've arrived at that conclusion. But do what you want.

 

[siucavflight]

Logging PIC as sole manipulator is getting PIC in an quasi-legal way. If you weren't hired to perform captain duties and never sign for the airplane as the designated PIC, then you shouldn't log it as such, even if you're typed. The "sole manipulator" thing was mainly for low time ME pilots to get more experience to meet minimums.

Hey, if your company will allow you to command/sign for the plane (which I doubt since you're new to the airframe), then by all means. But if you fly the right seat, you're the designated SIC and a required crewmember. There can't be two PICs in this operation. You're not flying Cessnas anymore. That sole manipulator crap is for timebuilding in light pistons.

Do what you want. I know you know the rules, you're just looking for enough affirmation to tip your scale. There's obviously a consensus of doubt regarding your questionable logging. When in doubt, be conservative and I think you've arrived at that conclusion. But do what you want.

That is what I believe to be true, yet there is so much discussion on it. And Avbug, whos opinion I respect, and he is usually right insist that both can log PIC, but he keeps pointing to a reg that seems to be more in favor of not allowing both to log PIC. So again it seems to be more than just me who does not really know which way to log their flight time.

 

[pilotgolfer]

For a second, forget about the future hiring boards at Fedex or Southwest. Lets just say your not interested in going to an airline job.


Maybe this guy is interested in doing some contract flying on his off time for another flight department that has a G550. Now if you are typed on the G550 and have 1000 hours as "sole manipulator", can you advertise yourself for contract flying as having 1000 PIC in the G550?

I don't know the answer...anybody??