Logging time question?

[siucavflight]

The more I research this the more it seems that I am logging it correctly, I will log SIC when I am in the right seat, and PIC when I am in the left seat, and my name is on the flight plan.
It seems that a lot of guys do this incorrectly, as most that I know have both guys up front logging PIC.

 

[avbug]

For such a simple subject, there seems to be many questions asked regarding this subject. Guess we're just all dummies.

Hardly, and it's unfortunate you feel that way.

"Dummies?" No. Lazy? Yes. You see, the paragraph in the regulation is very short, and very clear...yet when so many questions arise, it's not that those reading it are "dummies." It's that people aren't reading it and aren't taking the time to think for themselves. This doesn't make you a "dummy." Just lazy.

And unless you are flying a single pilot certified aircraft you must apply the 1.1 definition to 61.51 because it is the only FAA definition of PIC.

Wrong. You are confusing acting as PIC with logging PIC. Again, very different subjects. 61.51 very, very, very clearly spells out the requirements for logging PIC...and with the exception of 61.51(e)(iii) and 61.51(e)(2)...has nothing to do with acting as PIC.

One need NOT be pilot in command in order to log pilot in command time. You don't understand this?

There is no sole manipulator or grey area for multi crew aircraft PIC. If your name is not on the flight plan you are NOT PIC regardless of who is actualy flying the aircraft. The flight plan is the Part 91 version of a 135, 125, 121 Flight Release. It's not grey or fuzzy at all ever.

Again, this is untrue.

What part of the regulation do you think prevents a pilot who is rated in the airplane from logging PIC as sole manipulator of the controls, in a "multi crew aircraft?"

One's name on the flight plan is 100% irrelevant to the logging of flight time. It has no place, and no bearing on the subject. It's bantied about a lot, but it's poppycock. You won't find any such thing in the regulation.

You're right, however, that it's not gray or fuzzy at all. First, however, you need to read the regulation.

As a certified commercial lines insurance agent, I can verify that this is 100% possible. The insurer is completely within their rights to hold you responsible and lacking the top litigation attorney in the country, you'll probably lose.

Can you cite a case in which the legal logging of time has been upheld as evidence of wrongdoing, wherein the person logging the flight time was deemed to have misrepresented himself?

So avbug, please tell me. Can both of us being typed and have ATPs log every leg as PIC being part 91?

As this is a corporate operation and no ATP is required, the ATP is irrelevant.

What does the regulation say you can log?

Are you asking if you can, or should?

The more I research this the more it seems that I am logging it correctly, I will log SIC when I am in the right seat, and PIC when I am in the left seat, and my name is on the flight plan.

You can do as you will, of course...but remember that who is cited on the flight plan, and the seat you're in, has no bearing whatsoever on the logging of flight time.

 

[siucavflight]

Avbug, forgive me if I am sounding argumentative as I am really trying to educate myself on this topic, but I am just not seeing the part in the reg where it says I can log PIC while not acting PIC.

 

[BillJBrake]

With how often this question comes up here, has anyone called the FSDO?

 

[Midnight Flyer]

I agree, you can act as PIC and then you can log PIC time, which are two separate things.

Here's my take: Log it however you want, based on however you interpret the reg. Just be sure you can explain it if the FAA or your when your next potential employer asks for an explanation during the interview.
But if owned Acme Airlines and I was the guy hiring pilots, and I had a stack of resumes and they all reflected PIC turbine jet time, I would hire the PIC's who were actually Captains and signed the flight release. Not the type rated copilot who logged PIC time when he was manipulating the controls from the right seat. Even though he or she is physically steering the aircraft, the co-pilot isn't in command of squat.

 

[siucavflight]

I agree, you can act as PIC and then you can log PIC time, which are two separate things.

Here's my take: Log it however you want, based on however you interpret the reg. Just be sure you can explain it if the FAA or your when your next potential employer asks for an explanation during the interview.
But if owned Acme Airlines and I was the guy hiring pilots, and I had a stack of resumes and they all reflected PIC turbine jet time, I would hire the PIC's who were actually Captains and signed the flight release. Not the type rated copilot who logged PIC time when he was manipulating the controls from the right seat. Even though he or she is physically steering the aircraft, the co-pilot isn't in command of squat.

Thanks for the response Midnight flyer, but what I am looking for is a concrete answer, a yes or a no, I am getting everyones opinion, Avbug seems to be on the right path, but I am still not seeing what he is referring to.
And the other issue with your statement, we do not sign a flight release as we are part 91.

 

[avbug]

With how often this question comes up here, has anyone called the FSDO?

The FSDO has no legal authority to interpret the regulation. Accordingly, the answer you get at the FSDO level has no more authority than that of anyone on this board, at the airport, in the hangar, or on the street. Furthermore, the opinion of an inspector at the FSDO, verbal or in writing, carries no weight in your defense. If you're told or even given a letter that says you can do X, and you do X, and it violates the regulation...then what you've been told and the letter you've received gives you no defense.

Most pilots don't seem to realize this, amazingly enough. Some find out once it's too late.

Avbug, forgive me if I am sounding argumentative as I am really trying to educate myself on this topic, but I am just not seeing the part in the reg where it says I can log PIC while not acting PIC.

14 CFR 61.51(e) speaks to the logging of flight time. Not to acting as pilot in command.

61.51(e) provides five circumstances in which one can log PIC:

Sole manipulator of the controls (if rated: category and class).

Sole occupant.

Acting as PIC of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required.

An authorized instructor, when acting as an authorized instructor.

A student pilot when solo, undergoing instruction, and properly endorsed.

That's it.

A very common example which is frequently brought up is a non-instrument-rated pilot logging PIC in instrument conditions, or logging PIC while on an instrument flight plan. Perfectly legal.

Two pilots fly a Cessna 172 from A to B. It requires only one pilot. The flight is conducted under IFR. Pilot A is the acting PIC, but doesn't touch the controls. Pilot B is not instrument rated, but is sole manipulator. Pilot B can log the time as PIC, but pilot A cannot log the time at all...he's PIC of an aircraft requiring only one pilot, and doesn't fulfill any of the requirements to log the time. Pilot B does.

Two pilots fly a Cessna 172 from A to B. It requires only one pilot. The flight is conducted under VFR. Pilot A is the acting PIC, but doesn't touch the controls. Pilot B is not instrument rated, but is sole manipulator, and wears a view limiting device. Pilot B can lot the time as PIC, but Pilot A can also log the time as PIC; he's a safety pilot and required by 14 CFR 91.109(b). Both may log PIC.

Two pilots fly a Cessna 172 from A to B. It requires only one pilot. The flight is conducted under VFR or IFR. Pilot A is the acting PIC, but doesn't touch the controls. Pilot B is a student pilot, but is sole manipulator. Pilot B cannot log the time as PIC or SIC, as he doesn't meet the requirements to log the time. Pilot A cannot log the time as he doesn't meet the requirements either. In this case, neither may log flight time.

Acting as PIC is not the same as logging PIC, and shouldn't be confused.

Tom Morris
469 Riverside Drive
Ormond Beach, Florida 32176

Dear Mr. Morris:

In a letter dated March 9, 2006, you inquired whether you could record as pilot-in-command (PIC) time, the periods during which you were the ‘sole manipulator of the controls’ of a United States Air Force (USAF) KC-135 pursuant to Title 14, Code of Federal Regulations. (14 CFR) section 61.51(e)(1)(i). The pertinent facts you provided are that you are a rated military pilot that serves as a co-pilot and that you have completed pilot proficiency checks in the KC-135. 14 CFR § 61.51(e)(1)(i) states in relevant part:
A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
We would consider you rated in the aircraft, which in the civilian version (Boeing 707) requires a type rating, by virtue of having completed the pilot proficiency check. Thus, in evaluating your military flight time, we would treat the time as PIC time under section 61.51(e)(1)(i).
Thank you for your inquiry. If you have any questions please feel free to contact Naveen Rao of my staff at (202) 267-3073.
Sincerely,

Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations

 

[avbug]

Again, from the FAA Chief Legal Counsel, an interpretation of the regulation which, unlike responses at the FSDO level, is fully defensible in enforcement actions, and DOES represent the position of the FAA Administrator:

[FONT=&quot]February 9, 1999[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Bill Carpenter[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12808 E. Pacific Drive, #302 Aurora, Colorado 80014[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dear Mr. Carpenter:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thank you for your letter of January 25, 1999, in which you ask questions about logging pilot in command (PIC) time and second in command (SIC) time when operating under Part 121 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You first ask whether it would be proper under FAR 61.51(g) for a properly qualified SIC to log instrument flight time flown during instrument conditions while serving as the SIC in Part 121 operations on an aircraft that requires two crewmembers. The answer is yes. As a qualified SIC, and as a required crewmember, you are "operating" the aircraft within the meaning of FAR 61.51(g). Therefore, as the SIC operating the aircraft "solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions," you would log that time as SIC flown in instrument conditions. Naturally, the PIC logs the time as PIC flown in instrument conditions.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You then ask if, for the purposes of maintaining instrument currency, an instrument approach on the above flight flown by the PIC can be logged as an instrument approach by the SIC. The answer is no. As the SIC you have not "performed" the approach as contemplated by FAR 61.57(c) because you were not the sole manipulator of the controls during the approach.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Lastly, you present the following scenario: under a Part 121 operation the air carrier has designated a pilot and a copilot as required by FAR 121.385(c). The pilot is the authorized PIC and the copilot is the authorized SIC. The PIC is also the company check airman. During the course of the flight, the SIC is the sole manipulator of the controls for the flight. Additionally, he has passed the competency checks required for Part 121 operations, at least as SIC. You ask whether the SIC can log PIC time for that portion of the flight in which he is the sole manipulator of the controls for the flight. The answer is yes.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There is a distinction between acting as pilot in command and logging of pilot in command time. "Pilot in command," as defined in FAR 1.1, "means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time." FAR 61.51(e) is a flight-time logging regulation, which only regulates the recording of PIC time used to meet the requirements toward a higher certificate, higher rating, or for recent flight experience:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](1)[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]A recreational private or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]that flight time during which that person -- (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated_ (ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft: or (iii) Except for a recreational pilot is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](2)[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]While it is not possible for two pilots to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]act[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]as PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]log[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]PIC flight time simultaneously. If the pilot is designated as PIC by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 121.385(c), that person is PIC for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft. The pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is rated may also log that flight as PIC.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is important to remember that we are dealing with [/FONT][FONT=&quot]logging[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]of flight time only for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if the SIC is fully qualified as a PIC, or only as an SIC. This is important because even though an SIC can log PIC time, that pilot may not be qualified to serve[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]as PIC under Part 121.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I hope this satisfactorily answers your questions. If we can be of further assistance, please contact us.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]D. Brent Pope[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Attorney, ANM-7H[/FONT]

 

[avbug]

Again, we can post these all day long, as there's no shortage of material on the subject...and all easily available from the FAA web site...which catalogs legal interpretations in order that you might read them yourself and be familiar with the position of the Administrator.

[FONT=&quot]December 8, 1993[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]MR. STEVE HICKS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]711 North C [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Livingston, MT 59047[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dear Mr. Hicks: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This office received a memorandum from the Helena Flight Standards District Office on November 22, 1993, requesting a response to the following inquiry:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Two pilots (one private and one commercial, neither of which is a CFI) are flying cross-country VFR taking turns flying under the hood. How does the safety pilot log his time since he is a required crew person under the regulations?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The memorandum indicated that you presented this inquiry to the Helena FSDO,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and the FSDO Manager requested that this office respond directly to you. Accordingly, the response to your inquiry is set forth below.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Prior to providing a specific response to your inquiry, it is appropriate to[/FONT][FONT=&quot]note here the distinction between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. PIC, as defined in FAR 1.1, means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time. FAR 61.51 pertains to the logging of PIC flight time, and it provides that a private or commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Therefore, while it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time simultaneously. PIC flight time may be logged by both the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time in accordance with FAR 1.1, and the by the pilot who acts as the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is rated under FAR 61.51.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Responding specifically to your inquiry, the pilot that is under the hood may log PIC time for that time in which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft, provided that he or she is rated for that aircraft. The appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently log as second-in-command (SIC) that time during which he or she is acting as safety pilot.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]However, the two pilots may, prior to initiating the flight, agree that the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). In order to assist you further in this regard, enclosed please find a prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under simulated instrument flight conditions.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I hope this response satisfactorily answers your questions.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sincerely,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Philip Pompilio[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Staff Attorney[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]FAA Regional Office[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Office of the Chief Counsel[/FONT]

 

[siucavflight]

14 CFR 61.51(e) speaks to the logging of flight time. Not to acting as pilot in command.

61.51(e) provides five circumstances in which one can log PIC:

Sole manipulator of the controls (if rated: category and class).

Sole occupant.

Acting as PIC of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required.

An authorized instructor, when acting as an authorized instructor.

A student pilot when solo, undergoing instruction, and properly endorsed.

Avbug, not one of those things applies to me.
Sole manipulator of the controls-one guy does this, other guy does not.

Sole occupant-self explanitory

Acting as PIC of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required-slightly convulted, however I would think that only one guy can act as PIC, and we both switch off legs.

And the last two about instruction do not apply.

So which part of the reg allows us both to log PIC? Thank you for your time.

 

[SSDD]

WOW man,

Did you not read any of the stuff Avbug just posted?

It seems like you're just yanking his chain.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Come on guys, this isn't that hard.

What is the purpose of a log book? The purpose is to accurately portray your experience as a pilot.

The question is; does logging PIC when acting as an SIC serve to meet that purpose? The answer is no.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. The only advice I can give is to log what you are actually doing. If, you are acting as PIC (i.e. planning fuel loads, filing flight plans, making go/no-go decisions) and you are qualified, then log PIC. If any of those things aren't true, don't log it.

BTW...you can be the PIC and be in the right seat.

 

[siucavflight]

WOW man,

Did you not read any of the stuff Avbug just posted?

It seems like you're just yanking his chain.

Yes, and I responded to what he posted, I do not think that for our operation the guy in the right seat(I know that seat does not matter, but for us the guy flying always does it from the left seat) does not meet any of the criteria posted.

 

[SSDD]

If you don't feel comfortable, for whatever reason, then don't log it as PIC, but the regs clearly allow it.

 

[siucavflight]

If you don't feel comfortable, for whatever reason, then don't log it as PIC, but the regs clearly allow it.

Where, maybe I am completely dense, but I can not find where they allow for it? Which sentence in there specifically allows for it?