Logging landings as a CFI....

[pgcfii2002]

I know we can log PIC at all times while acting as an instructor, but do we log all the landings, regardless of whether or not the CFI or student performs them?

 

[aviator1978]

It's been posted on here before so try a search.

Here was my method...If I had to physically "help" the student with the landing I logged it. If I didn't, then no landing logged.

I really doubt any one will ever question you on them.

 

[svcta]

You're CFIing. Log it.

 

[Waldom]

I'm not a C.F.I., but I certainly respect the job you're doing.

If the student bends the airplane while receiving dual instruction on landings, who is responsible for the accident? You should most certainly log all the landings. Your hands and feet may not have touched the controls but your head was very much involved in every landing.

 

[aviator1978]

Here's the question in an older thread:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=52742&highlight=landings

 

[Doc Holiday]

61.57

To be able to act as PIC, you must have logged the three landings (etc., etc.) and you must have been sole manipulator of the controls.

61.51 outlines only what is required to be logged. Anything you log that exceeds those requirements is up to you.

My method while instructing was to put everything in MY logbook that I entered into my students' logbooks and included the students' names. That way if any questions were asked about who I flew with and what I did with them I had a record readily available. When I was sole manipulator of the controls during the takeoff and landing, I would make an extra note indicating that the takeoff and landing counted toward the required recency experience.

Hope this helps.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I know we can log PIC at all times while acting as an instructor, but do we log all the landings, regardless of whether or not the CFI or student performs them?

Assuming you're logging the landings for the purpose of proving your own currency (the only regulatory reason to log them) read the regulation and see what it says.

(Really good advice for those who say, "you're the CFI, log it" is, "You're the CFI. Learn to read the regulations that you're supposedly teaching.")

If you're not logging them to count them for currency purposes but just for the heck of it, then write something in your logbook to the effect of "these don't count."

 

[CJCCapt]

The reg and the FAA is very clear on this. There is an interpretation[FONT=&quot][/FONT] out (I will try to find it) and guidance in the FAA Inspectors Handbook.

61.57 states clearly you must be sole manipulator of the controls for landings to count for either day or night currency. You just can't sit there and watch your student do it and have it count. The FAA wants you to actually have some real practice at it.

Are you still responsible if the student screws up, sure. But that's the case even if you, the CFI, and a couple of your private pilot buddies are out flying around and you're dozing in the back seat when your buddy busts a TFR. Guess who's gonna get hung?

 

[eagle06]

Landings count for nothing except to keep you current. just log what you need for that and i wouldnt worry too much about it

 

[Amish RakeFight]

What I used to do was to split the landing column box diagonally. Top half is for student landings and bottom half is for me.

In order to log for currency you must be the sole manipulator.

Every so often you should demonstrate a proper crosswind landing, short or soft fielf landing, regular landing, 180 power off, etc.

It isn't hard to find 3 opportunities to accomplish this within 90 days.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I'm not a C.F.I., but I certainly respect the job you're doing.

If the student bends the airplane while receiving dual instruction on landings, who is responsible for the accident? You should most certainly log all the landings. Your hands and feet may not have touched the controls but your head was very much involved in every landing.

This is all very true, but we must compy with the regulations. Namely that you must be sole manipulator.


It ain't hard to get 3 landings in 90 days while instructing.

 

[AC560]

It ain't hard to get 3 landings in 90 days while instructing.

Don't forget to land when it is dark out as well.

 

[av8orboy]

Your PIC. You log it.

 

[The_Russian]

Your PIC. You log it.

Not always. What if the student is rated for and in the aircraft? PIC is determined in the briefing. You cannot log the landing unless you perform the landing. You can keep your currency by demonstrating landings to students.

 

[acaTerry]

I log them all but don't count them for currency. Logging them is a matter of CYA in case a student said they did not get to do enough landings if / when they get into trouble.

 

[siucavflight]

As a CFI I logged every landing I was in the airplane for, you are PIC, you are responsible if any metal gets bent. I went in for interviews at 6 different 121 operators, now work at Eagle, and never had anyone question it.

 

[fussle]

Anytime you are acting as the flight instructor, you may log that time as PIC, even if they have their commercial certificate 61.51 (e)(3). Although technically, the landings where you were not the sole manipulator of the controls would not count towards your 90 day currency as per 61.57 (a)(1)(i).

 

[greyhound]

I don't log landings that I didn't perform, so I have to keep track on whether or not I'm current when I want to go up on my own with passengers (especially during the night).
Instrument approaches/Holding are also things I don't log for myself when I teach unless I'm on an IFR flight plan in actual.

 

[Seadogrun]

But that's the case even if you, the CFI, and a couple of your private pilot buddies are out flying around and you're dozing in the back seat when your buddy busts a TFR. Guess who's gonna get hung?

I have heard of this, but haven't actually read anything on this case. Could you point me in the right direction to find any literature on this case?

Was it the FAA that brough charges against the back seat sleeper? Or was it in civil court (lawsuit) that declared the back seater responsible? Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Lazy8]

Not always. What if the student is rated for and in the aircraft? PIC is determined in the briefing. You cannot log the landing unless you perform the landing. You can keep your currency by demonstrating landings to students.

You are always PIC while acting as an instructor even if you're with a rated pilot. The rated pilot you're with may be making the decisions, but the instructor has final authority and responsibility over the flight.

 

[AC560]

You are always PIC while acting as an instructor even if you're with a rated pilot. The rated pilot you're with may be making the decisions, but the instructor has final authority and responsibility over the flight.

According to a lawyer, probably. According to the FAR's, no.

 

[Lazy8]

According to a lawyer, probably. According to the FAR's, no.

I should have probably phrased my original statement better. You can always log PIC time while instructing, even if you are not acting as PIC. Like you said, lawyers and insurance companies rule our industry but you still have a responsibility to uphold while acting as an instructor. Why else would you be allowed to log PIC without acting as PIC? On that note, gear-up an RG with a rated pilot in commercial training and explain to the FAA that (s)he was acting as PIC. How do you think that's going to work out for you?

As for the thread topic. You can only legally log landings where you were the sole manipulator of the controls. This came up at a CFI event at the Denver FSDO recently and they couldn't stress enough that you should only be logging the landings you did as the sole manipulator. If you had to save a landing, then hey, log what you think is necessary. Logging every one is a bit ridiculous though since there's no way a CFI miraculously saves each landing.

g

 

[midlifeflyer]

I have heard of this, but haven't actually read anything on this case.

That's only because it's hard to read about a case that doesn't exist.

 

[midlifeflyer]

On landings: Does anyone else find it scary that a whole bunch of CFIs here don't know the rules?

 

[AC560]

On landings: Does anyone else find it scary that a whole bunch of CFIs here don't know the rules?

The whole issue in my opinion stems from the fact that FAA defines being PIC and logging PIC as two different things when common sense says they shouldn't be.

 

[Lazy8]

The whole issue in my opinion stems from the fact that FAA defines being PIC and logging PIC as two different things when common sense says they shouldn't be.

Acting as PIC and logging PIC has no connection with logable landings. You simply have to be the sole manipulator of the controls. You can be the sole manipulator of the controls without acting as PIC or logging PIC time.

 

[AC560]

Acting as PIC and logging PIC has no connection with logable landings. You simply have to be the sole manipulator of the controls. You can be the sole manipulator of the controls without acting as PIC or logging PIC time.

I never said it did but if you read through this thread there seems to be a general idea that because the CFI is logging PIC he can log the landing. This stems from the fact that in my opinion most people confuse logging PIC with acting as PIC.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I never said it did but if you read through this thread there seems to be a general idea that because the CFI is logging PIC he can log the landing. This stems from the fact that in my opinion most people confuse logging PIC with acting as PIC.

I see what you are saying. But even without the logging v acting mess, there are enough "it's my ticket on the line so I'm logging it" posts to suggest a bigger problem: a simple failure to recognize that all of these logging rules are in some sense artificial. The are written down, sometimes in excruciating detail. Logging is based on what the words on the page say (and the way the FAA has interpreted those words), and not on what we feel like they should say or we feel is our due.

==============================
no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers...unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and ... The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls
==============================

Definitely regulese, but not a particularly difficult version of it.

 

[pgcfii2002]

Good post...thanks for the feedback!

 

[AC560]

not on what we feel like they should say or we feel is our due.

Logging PIC as a F/O is my favorite FI thread of all time (except maybe diarrhea in a freighter).