Logging landings as a CFI....

[AC560]

You are always PIC while acting as an instructor even if you're with a rated pilot. The rated pilot you're with may be making the decisions, but the instructor has final authority and responsibility over the flight.

According to a lawyer, probably. According to the FAR's, no.

 

[Lazy8]

According to a lawyer, probably. According to the FAR's, no.

I should have probably phrased my original statement better. You can always log PIC time while instructing, even if you are not acting as PIC. Like you said, lawyers and insurance companies rule our industry but you still have a responsibility to uphold while acting as an instructor. Why else would you be allowed to log PIC without acting as PIC? On that note, gear-up an RG with a rated pilot in commercial training and explain to the FAA that (s)he was acting as PIC. How do you think that's going to work out for you?

As for the thread topic. You can only legally log landings where you were the sole manipulator of the controls. This came up at a CFI event at the Denver FSDO recently and they couldn't stress enough that you should only be logging the landings you did as the sole manipulator. If you had to save a landing, then hey, log what you think is necessary. Logging every one is a bit ridiculous though since there's no way a CFI miraculously saves each landing.

g

 

[midlifeflyer]

I have heard of this, but haven't actually read anything on this case.

That's only because it's hard to read about a case that doesn't exist.

 

[midlifeflyer]

On landings: Does anyone else find it scary that a whole bunch of CFIs here don't know the rules?

 

[AC560]

On landings: Does anyone else find it scary that a whole bunch of CFIs here don't know the rules?

The whole issue in my opinion stems from the fact that FAA defines being PIC and logging PIC as two different things when common sense says they shouldn't be.

 

[Lazy8]

The whole issue in my opinion stems from the fact that FAA defines being PIC and logging PIC as two different things when common sense says they shouldn't be.

Acting as PIC and logging PIC has no connection with logable landings. You simply have to be the sole manipulator of the controls. You can be the sole manipulator of the controls without acting as PIC or logging PIC time.

 

[AC560]

Acting as PIC and logging PIC has no connection with logable landings. You simply have to be the sole manipulator of the controls. You can be the sole manipulator of the controls without acting as PIC or logging PIC time.

I never said it did but if you read through this thread there seems to be a general idea that because the CFI is logging PIC he can log the landing. This stems from the fact that in my opinion most people confuse logging PIC with acting as PIC.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I never said it did but if you read through this thread there seems to be a general idea that because the CFI is logging PIC he can log the landing. This stems from the fact that in my opinion most people confuse logging PIC with acting as PIC.

I see what you are saying. But even without the logging v acting mess, there are enough "it's my ticket on the line so I'm logging it" posts to suggest a bigger problem: a simple failure to recognize that all of these logging rules are in some sense artificial. The are written down, sometimes in excruciating detail. Logging is based on what the words on the page say (and the way the FAA has interpreted those words), and not on what we feel like they should say or we feel is our due.

==============================
no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers...unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and ... The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls
==============================

Definitely regulese, but not a particularly difficult version of it.

 

[pgcfii2002]

Good post...thanks for the feedback!

 

[AC560]

not on what we feel like they should say or we feel is our due.

Logging PIC as a F/O is my favorite FI thread of all time (except maybe diarrhea in a freighter).

 

[Lazy8]

Logging PIC as a F/O is my favorite FI thread of all time (except maybe diarrhea in a freighter).

diarrhea in a freighter trumps.

:beer:

 

[skiandsurf]

Just my take on Logging Landings....

First off, your logbook is YOUR logbook. Make any notes that you feel important, or "milestones".

Second, If I am a Required Crewmember, I log it. If I am am teaching a student pilot, I am required. If the student already has soloed, he cannot carry passengers. Therefore, the CFI is not a passenger, but a required crewmember.

When flying an RJ or Airbus, you are a required crewmember. I log them all. With 16,000 + hours, nobody has EVER questioned me on "how many landings do you have?".

As far as currency goes, if you are a flight instructor, this should not even be an issue.....providing you keep busy.

 

[Lazy8]

Just my take on Logging Landings....

First off, your logbook is YOUR logbook. Make any notes that you feel important, or "milestones".

Second, If I am a Required Crewmember, I log it. If I am am teaching a student pilot, I am required. If the student already has soloed, he cannot carry passengers. Therefore, the CFI is not a passenger, but a required crewmember.

When flying an RJ or Airbus, you are a required crewmember. I log them all. With 16,000 + hours, nobody has EVER questioned me on "how many landings do you have?".

As far as currency goes, if you are a flight instructor, this should not even be an issue.....providing you keep busy.

That's fine, but the FAR's are pretty clear that you have to be the sole manipulator for the controls to log a landing. It doesn't matter if you are required to be there or not. Am I the only one besides Mark that gets this?

Sure you can go your whole career without it being an issue because 99% of the time nobody cares about your landings... until you bend a plane at night with a student and the FSDO investigates and notices you have 5,000 landings logged with 900 hours flight time. (hmmmm....) The Denver FSDO made a point that they've busted at least one CFI on proving his currency (among other things) with that exact scenario. There's no way you'd have several thousand landings with that flight time as an instructor and it is easy to get out of night currency even if you have many students. ie. If you're living in the Denver area and just survived several months of constant snow storms this past winter you weren't flying much.

It doesn't matter to me how you folks are logging landings, but just keep in mind the FARs are cut and dry on what you can and cannot log to maintain currency. I'm only stressing this because so many students read this forum and take what we say as the gospel. May as well state the facts instead of what we feel they should be.

Do you guys also log instrument approaches on instructional flights when the student is flying the approach? Do you log sim time when you're teaching someone in it? .....

g

 

[skiandsurf]

Do you guys also log instrument approaches on instructional flights when the student is flying the approach? Do you log sim time when you're teaching someone in it? .....

g

If approach is done VMC....No. If IMC....Yes.

Teaching in the sim...No.


......you guys get too rapped around the axle on these issues. I would almost bet the if you asked 10 FSDOs on the interptation, you would get 10 different answers...........Who Cares. And by the way, FOs do not log PIC time when it is their leg.

 

[AC560]

And by the way, FOs do not log PIC time when it is their leg.

The only way this can get any better is if the FO is logging PIC in a freighter and gets diarrhea

 

[midlifeflyer]

Do you guys also log instrument approaches on instructional flights when the student is flying the approach?

Be careful of that one. There is pretty strong support for the position that if they are in IMC, student approaches are also logable by the instructor.

 

[acaTerry]

And by the way, FOs do not log PIC time when it is their leg.

HA!!! You won't believe it this, but on the regionals forum there was a multiple page argument over it because some egotistical FO's were logging PIC on their leg....that is just plain PATHETIC. I can't believe the spoiled and haughty kids that are going into the regionals these days.

 

[buckeyeflyer]

The only way this can get any better is if the FO is logging PIC in a freighter and gets diarrhea

I just about spit water all over my monitor! Bravo!

 

[Fedora]

I can't believe what I'm seeing on this thread! I'll keeep a sharp eye on the new guys from now on if this is a prevailing attitude about logging time and landings!
What could possibly motivate you to log a landing that somebody else accomplishes? I can only think of the word currency on that one.
Hey! we're talking P-51 time here big time, folks! If your concience allows you to do that and you feel you have to, I'll only say that you're lying to yourself each time you log one, and you'll eventually look at your logbook as a bunch of fictitious numbers that grows bigger all the time and something not to be very proud of. "Sole maipulator of the controls"! How can you guys interpret that any other way? You guys have some inflated view of being a CFI or PIC? I'll bet you guys log the landings of your students when you get out and give them their first solo landings, too! How sad for this profession that people feel the need to justify filling their logbook with untruths and fabrications.
Land the plane, log the landing, it's that simple, folks. You'll feel good that your logbook reflects the real truth when you walk into that interview.

"If we didn't lie, we wouldn't have to remember so much"

Will Rogers

 

[Fedora]

As a CFI I logged every landing I was in the airplane for, you are PIC, you are responsible if any metal gets bent. I went in for interviews at 6 different 121 operators, now work at Eagle, and never had anyone question it.

How sad for you. So I supposose Eagle allows it's Captains to log landings that the FO accomplishes? You'd think that the FEDS would question two people logging landings for one flight. (I guess you could say you always do a touch and go for currency, heh?). Maintenance probably gets upset that they have to inspect the jet more often because of the landings logged too! What? You don't log them in the aicraft logbook? Just your own "personal" logbook? Hmmm. I see.
As PIC in my jet, I'm responsible for any "bent metal", but wouldn't think of logging a landing the FO does. YGBSM! You're only lying to yourself. Get real, be honest with yourself. You didn't get hired because of the number of landings in your logbook, believe me. Airlines know about flying and instructing, and know their instructors don't get to log many landings. If anything, logging an inordinant amount of landings while instructing might be questionable at some interviews.

BTW, for those of you who got it right on this thread, nice to se your posts. There may be hope for this profession after all!