Logging flight time

[sigler]

I was wondering how do you gus go about logging instrument approaches and landings; do you only log the ones you fly as PF or do you log the ones you're PNF also? And how about instrument time, is it even worth logging it in 121 ops? Thanks.

 

[Chairman]

The only approach you might be able to log as PNF might be a CAT II. Same with instrument if your not flying you are really not sole manipulator

 

[GuppyWN]

"Log" might be a stretch but I do keep track of approaches flown and IMC when I'M the PF.

Haven't added it up in 10 years but the way this business goes I'd like to at least have the records.

Gup

 

[TWA Dude]

Two separate questions: what can you log and what should you log?

Lots of debate over what you can legally log and it's frankly not worth it. I recommend being very conservative because at this point in the game you've no need to impress anybody. Technique only, but I only log instrument time, approaches, and landings I perform myself. And I only log the approach if I encountered IMC from the FAF inbound. And autopilot use is irrelevant.

If in doubt don't log it and nobody will ever care.

 

[LearLove]

Technique only, but I only log instrument time, approaches, and landings I perform myself. And I only log the approach if I encountered IMC from the FAF inbound. And autopilot use is irrelevant.

Same here, I log:

-landings when I'm the PF
-inst. apps. when I'm the PF and flown (AP or hand) from the FAF inbound
-IMC when in actual IMC and I'm the PF
-night when it is night (obviously) and I'm either the PF or NPF

 

[QCappy]

Same here, I log:

-landings when I'm the PF
-inst. apps. when I'm the PF and flown (AP or hand) from the FAF inbound
-IMC when in actual IMC and I'm the PF
-night when it is night (obviously) and I'm either the PF or NPF

I log it the same way, also.

 

[Mr Wu]

IMC is a flight condition, just like night. Doesn't matter if you are the PF or PM.

 

[QCappy]

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(g) Logging instrument time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.
(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent instrument experience requirements of §61.57(c) of this part, the following information must be recorded in the person's logbook—
(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and
(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.
(4) A person can use time in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for acquiring instrument aeronautical experience for a pilot certificate, rating, or instrument recency experience, provided an authorized instructor is present to observe that time and signs the person's logbook or training record to verify the time and the content of the training session.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Same here, I log:

-landings when I'm the PF
-inst. apps. when I'm the PF and flown (AP or hand) from the FAF inbound
-IMC when in actual IMC and I'm the PF
-night when it is night (obviously) and I'm either the PF or NPF

Ditto.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Same here, I log:

-landings when I'm the PF
-inst. apps. when I'm the PF and flown (AP or hand) from the FAF inbound
-IMC when in actual IMC and I'm the PF
-night when it is night (obviously) and I'm either the PF or NPF

Me, too.

 

[sigler]

Thanks for the answers guys. Since I only update my logbook every few months, I'm not sure what to do about IMC though. It's kinda hard to remember...

 

[regionalcap]

Thanks for the answers guys. Since I only update my logbook every few months, I'm not sure what to do about IMC though. It's kinda hard to remember...

Does it really matter though?

 

[Mr Wu]

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(g) Logging instrument time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.
(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent instrument experience requirements of §61.57(c) of this part, the following information must be recorded in the person's logbook—
(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and
(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.
(4) A person can use time in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for acquiring instrument aeronautical experience for a pilot certificate, rating, or instrument recency experience, provided an authorized instructor is present to observe that time and signs the person's logbook or training record to verify the time and the content of the training session.

How many pilots required to operate your 737?

 

[Whine Lover]

Sample Log Book Entries:

- 1997 - B-727 - PIC - 642

- 2005 - B-737 - PIC - 718


Nuff said.

Tain't no use pickin' the fly crap outta' the pepper.


YKMKR

 

[Whine Lover]

" I'm not sure what to do about IMC though. '

Question:

How much time, in large transport category aircraft operations, is the aircraft controlled or maneuvered by outside visual references?

Unrelated Question:

Is an F/E able to log multi-engine time as a required crew member on a transport category multi-engine aircraft?


TOTALLY Unrelated Question:

Can you consider Per Diem as Income and/or part of a total compensation package?


Discuss.....And drive yourselves nuts.



YKMKR

 

[Mike man]

Shouldn't it be more like this:

- 1997 - B-727 - PIC - 642 - W2 - 164,383

- 2005 - B-737 - PIC - 718 - W2 - 119,277

or something to that effect?

or even add a line
- 1987 - COMPANY PROFIT - 800,000,000 - CEO BONUS - 100,000
- 2005 - COMPANY LOSS - 255,000,000 - CEO BONUS - 4,500,000 + stock options, company car, drive, house, county club membership and hush money to keep hookers quiet.

 

[ePilot22]

IMC is a flight condition, just like night. Doesn't matter if you are the PF or PM.

+1.





eP.

 

[MTV]

" I'm not sure what to do about IMC though. '

Question:

How much time, in large transport category aircraft operations, is the aircraft controlled or maneuvered by outside visual references?

Unrelated Question:

Is an F/E able to log multi-engine time as a required crew member on a transport category multi-engine aircraft?


TOTALLY Unrelated Question:

Can you consider Per Diem as Income and/or part of a total compensation package?


Discuss.....And drive yourselves nuts.



YKMKR

I agree with my former brother, I do not spend alot of time looking outside to navigate anymore.

 

[727gm]

Unrelated Question:

Is an F/E able to log multi-engine time as a required crew member on a transport category multi-engine aircraft?

I don't include FE time in ANY column other than FE column. Not ME, XC, Night, total, at all.

 

[Whine Lover]

Trick question.

He is able to log it...But shouldn't.



YKW

 

[HAL]

There was one of those Q & A things from the FAA a few years back on this, and it matched what LearLove said. Essentially, as a First Officer and PNF, you can't log instrument time. If you are a F/O PF, log the IMC time. As Captain, because you have final responsibility for the aircraft, you can log all IMC time, PF or PNF. Same goes for approaches. Night is different, because there is nothing in the regs about 'sole manipulator' for night, and as a required crew member, you can log all night time.

I would still suggest everyone keep logging all their flights, IMC, approaches, and the rest until you hit the magic number (60, 65, or whatever) and hang up the stripes. I know a couple of senior Aloha guys who hadn't logged in years, and despite 8-landing days for decades, couldn't prove to the airline they were applying at what recent & total experience they had. Yes, it's a pain. But if your airline craters, you have to have good records to be at the front of the line at your next job.

HAL

 

[Whine Lover]

"...you have to have good records to be at the front of the line at your next job."


Atlas Air specifically asks you NOT to bring your Log Books to an interview.

They are an exception to the general rule, but their philosophy is that they can verify your employment with a 121 carrier and after 10,000 hrs or so....They pretty much figure you know how to fly at night, in IMC, and can shoot an approach to mins if you need to.

YKW

 

[Caveman]

Same here, I log:

-landings when I'm the PF
-inst. apps. when I'm the PF and flown (AP or hand) from the FAF inbound
-IMC when in actual IMC and I'm the PF
-night when it is night (obviously) and I'm either the PF or NPF

Ditto.

 

[Jim]

There was one of those Q & A things from the FAA a few years back on this, and it matched what LearLove said. Essentially, as a First Officer and PNF, you can't log instrument time. If you are a F/O PF, log the IMC time. As Captain, because you have final responsibility for the aircraft, you can log all IMC time, PF or PNF. Same goes for approaches. Night is different, because there is nothing in the regs about 'sole manipulator' for night, and as a required crew member, you can log all night time.

Actually the FAA legal opinion states that any pilot operating the plane should log the IMC time whether Captain or FO, PF or PNF. The number of pilots operating the plane were defined by the planes type certificate, the FARs and the OPSPECs. You don't have to be the Captain to log actual if you're the PNF. It went on to say only the PF could log the approaches. (the "pilot operating" part is what excluded the FEs).

This was a difference of opinion between the guy that ran the old FAA Q&A website and the FAA Legal Counsel. The Q&A website also specifically said that the answers on the site had no legal standing and only the FAA General Counsel could issue legal interpretations of the FARs.

Too bad Doc's FAR Forum is history. He had the actual FAA Legal Counsel opinions.

 

[regionalcap]

Here is the answer for IMC

February 9, 1999

Bill Carpenter
12808 E. Pacific Drive, #302 Aurora, Colorado 80014

Dear Mr. Carpenter:

Thank you for your letter of January 25, 1999, in which you ask questions about logging pilot in command (PIC) time and second in command (SIC) time when operating under Part 121 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR)

You first ask whether it would be proper under FAR 61.51(g) for a properly qualified SIC to log instrument flight time flown during instrument conditions while serving as the SIC in Part 121 operations on an aircraft that requires two crewmembers. The answer is yes. As a qualified SIC, and as a required crewmember, you are "operating" the aircraft within the meaning of FAR 61.51(g). Therefore, as the SIC operating the aircraft "solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions," you would log that time as SIC flown in instrument conditions. Naturally, the PIC logs the time as PIC flown in instrument conditions.

You then ask if, for the purposes of maintaining instrument currency, an instrument approach on the above flight flown by the PIC can be logged as an instrument approach by the SIC. The answer is no. As the SIC you have not "performed" the approach as contemplated by FAR 61.57(c) because you were not the sole manipulator of the controls during the approach.

Lastly, you present the following scenario: under a Part 121 operation the air carrier has designated a pilot and a copilot as required by FAR 121.385(c). The pilot is the authorized PIC and the copilot is the authorized SIC. The PIC is also the company check airman. During the course of the flight, the SIC is the sole manipulator of the controls for the flight. Additionally, he has passed the competency checks required for Part 121 operations, at least as SIC. You ask whether the SIC can log PIC time for that portion of the flight in which he is the sole manipulator of the controls for the flight. The answer is yes.

There is a distinction between acting as pilot in command and logging of pilot in command time. "Pilot in command," as defined in FAR 1.1, "means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time." FAR 61.51(e) is a flight-time logging regulation, which only regulates the recording of PIC time used to meet the requirements toward a higher certificate, higher rating, or for recent flight experience:
2

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

A recreational private or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person -- (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated_ (ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft: or (iii) Except for a recreational pilot is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

While it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time simultaneously. If the pilot is designated as PIC by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 121.385(c), that person is PIC for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft. The pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is rated may also log that flight as PIC.

It is important to remember that we are dealing with logging of flight time only for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if the SIC is fully qualified as a PIC, or only as an SIC. This is important because even though an SIC can log PIC time, that pilot may not be qualified to serve as PIC under Part 121.

I hope this satisfactorily answers your questions. If we can be of further assistance, please contact us.

D. Brent Pope
Attorney, ANM-7H

 

[sayrejm]

I still say you can log the approach as PNF. It says "sole manipulator of the controls" and does not specify "primary flight controls" Furthermore, the PF is not the "sole manipulator of the controls." The PNF operates the gear, the radios, and the secondary flight controls as well as monitors the approach and makes all required call outs and operates the altitude pre-selector and makes required FMS entries below 10,000 feet. Neither pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls which is why the aircraft requires two pilots. I do draw the line at the landings though.

 

[Chairman]

I still say you can log the approach as PNF. It says "sole manipulator of the controls" and does not specify "primary flight controls" Furthermore, the PF is not the "sole manipulator of the controls." The PNF operates the gear, the radios, and the secondary flight controls as well as monitors the approach and makes all required call outs and operates the altitude pre-selector and makes required FMS entries below 10,000 feet. Neither pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls which is why the aircraft requires two pilots. I do draw the line at the landings though.

Log what you want. It's your logbook just be ready to defend it. Did an interview with a applicant who had logged time in the EMB 120 as PIC while not typed and tried to tell the interview board how he was allowed to log it. He didn't get hired. Log what you want but use it on an application and you might find yourself getting turned down more times than not!

 

[AC560]

I still say you can log the approach as PNF.

And that makes logical sense, however if you review the post previous to yours it is clear you cannot.

Regulations are not necessarily based on logic or what is right, they are what they are and the only persons opinion on them who matters is FAA Counsel.

 

[Sandstorm]

This may be a stupid question, but how important is it that you actually log landings in your logbook? If you are employed by a 121 carrier, you are obviously current under 121.437 and 121.439.

 

[CesnaCaptn]

This may be a stupid question, but how important is it that you actually log landings in your logbook? If you are employed by a 121 carrier, you are obviously current under 121.437 and 121.439.

How important is it that you log anything? As far as I know, a pilot only flying 121 doesn't "have" to log anything. You might want to keep a log for personal reasons, or more importantly if you ever need to apply for a job. Like the chairman said, what matters to a 121 pilot is whether or not he can defend his logbook at an interview. If you want to work for Atlas or Alaska, apparently you don't even need a logbook.