Logbook accuracy

[siucavflight]

I recently added up my flight times and found a 9 hour discrepancy somewhere in my total time, I know it is in the logbook i used when I was getting all my ratings but havnt had the time to go through it and find the mistakes. Any suggestions on how I should correct it?

I am assuming that either your day and night dont add up to your total time, or your SEL and MEL dont add up to your total time. If you cant find the error take nine hours off of the more difficult time to get, if it is a discrepancy between day and night take 9 hours off of your night and make a star next to it. If it is between SEL and MEL take 9 hours off of your multi time and make a star, and be ready to explain it. As long as you are not making the total time larger to make it work then you should have nothing to worry about.

 

[Horizon]

The FAA often just prescribes meaningless total-time requirements until you're entitled to a certain certificate. What they fail to do is mandate any type of flying under which most of those hours are acquired. THAT is what pisses me off.

Think about it. You need 250TT to get your commercial. So lets say you have your private and your instrument, but still need another 130 hours toward your commercial. Why should you have to spend 10K renting airplanes to acquire these hours, when in the eyes of the FAA, you could legally spend the next 130 hours flying straight and level in clear/million, all the while learning ABSOLUETLY NOTHING. Hell, I've heard stories of guys making every landing a full-stop and back-taxi simply so they can legally log all this time spent ON THE F*CKING GROUND! To me, that's just as bad as padding.

Yeah, well, guess what? If I'm working towards a commercial, I'll be sure to fly only on long XC flights, in IFR conditions, and only into busy class-B airspaces. That way I can simply multiply my hours by two, since I'm getting twice the experience as these retards flying in circles around the pattern gaining NOTHING for the experience!

 

[avbug]

No, you can log engine start (out) to engine shut down (in).

Not legally, you can't.

By that logic, of course, you would need to stop logging if the engine quit enroute, or you could simply sit on the ramp and run the engine to log time.

You may log time from when the aircraft first moves under it's own power until it first comes to a rest at the conclusion of the flight. And that's it.

 

[Princedietrich]

The legal definition of "flight time" which is what gets put into the logbook. This definition comes fight out of 14 CFR 1:

Time that commences when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and terminates when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.


Translation: as soon as you start to roll out of the parking spot the clock is ticking and it stops as soon as you stop in the next parking spot.

 

[Princedietrich]

Now for my funny story about a time padder.

I knew this guy from the aviation program that I trained and taught in, a 141 university flight school. He was a student there while I was a faculty instructor. The school had a few airplanes that were used for 91 transportation flights, and all of the flight school students would climb all over eachother for some right seat time. The fleet consisted of a Chieftain and a King Air 200.

This guy was widely known to sit in the King Air, while it was parked in the hangar, and log the time he spent sitting in it. He was also a self proclaimed expert in the Chieftain when he was nothing more than a gear puller and radio/checklist monkey.

He lasted all of 2 months at Airnet. He got fired for a combination of a sickening ego/attitude and for dropping a Chieftain on its nosegear so hard that the down and locked light went out. To hear the lead mechanic use the word "mangled" to describe the condition of the nosegear was pretty disturbing.

Last I heard, this guy was a waiter.

 

[FirstMate]

We knew a guy in our class that padded his times in college. Huge tool. He used to log turbine time in the right seat of a caravan here and there. Used to call him "Turbin time". He was known to pencilwhip his multi time as well. Got him a job about a year quicker than everyone else. At 25 yrs of age, he's a captain at some regional in IND now. Good for him i guess....I'll never be throwing gear for him.

 

[cynic]

You can tell from my logbook when I was a full time pilot. All flights were rounded to a whole hour. No more 1.1, .9, 1.2, .8

At the end of a day of instructing I'd just fill it out as best as I could remember and it probably averaged out to be honest.

When I was flying corporate and had several legs I'd do the same thing. 2 hours over and 2 back even though it was sometimes 1.8 or 2.1

Now when I put it all into a database I wrote I found I was like 50 hours short on my total time due to various errors over the years in 2 logbooks. Worked out to my advantage. What I would have done for an extra 50 hours when I was 21. Sigh....

 

[handlesaregay]

So many of these stories start with "I knew this guy who pen whipped a bunch of time" and end with "he is now a Captain at XYZ Regional"... I know of a few of these types myself. If everyone knows someone like this then the answer is yes it is rampant, 9 times out of 10 they don't get caught, and nice guys really do finish last. But before you put pen to paper and start whipping up that time remember what A Squared said, revocation means you don't get to be a pilot anymore, it is not a slap on the wrist. I'm not talking about the 10 hours of Dual Recieved in a King Air, but the flagrant logging of fictional flights that never happened and the adding a 1/2 hour to every flight BS that instructors do. Playing that game is playing Russian Roullete with your certificates and like shop lifting the more you do it the easier it is and the greater your odds are of getting caught. It has become so rampant though I suspect there may be a crack down coming one day. I would hate to see new FAR's but it might come to that. Requiring flight schools to keep track of instructor time would put a chill on a lot of it. Sure people who are determined to cheat will still find a way, but I think a lot of people sitting on the fence are giving in to the "everybody else is doing it so why shouldn't I?" mentality. And of course there is the larger issue of cheating becoming more rampant in society, but we don't need to turn this thread into a 20/20 episode.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Reminds me of a story I once heard.

There was this guy who would pad his logbook by copying down the tail numbers of various twins that he saw take off from various airports. One day this pilot went for say an ATP rating and during the oral the examiner reviewed his logbook. Upon coming across a particular plane, the examiner asked about "N12345" and whether he liked flying this particular plane since he had an ample amount of time in it. The applicant of course made some indication of his thoughts on the plane being questioned about. Something to the effect of "yeah, its a smooth plane to fly, yadda yadda yadda." The examiner found this funny as the particular plane he asked about actually belonged to the examiner himself. Caught in a lie, this guy lost all his certificates.

 

[handlesaregay]

Reminds me of a story I once heard.

There was this guy who would pad his logbook by copying down the tail numbers of various twins that he saw take off from various airports. One day this pilot went for say an ATP rating and during the oral the examiner reviewed his logbook. Upon coming across a particular plane, the examiner asked about "N12345" and whether he liked flying this particular plane since he had an ample amount of time in it. The applicant of course made some indication of his thoughts on the plane being questioned about. Something to the effect of "yeah, its a smooth plane to fly, yadda yadda yadda." The examiner found this funny as the particular plane he asked about actually belonged to the examiner himself. Caught in a lie, this guy lost all his certificates.

I first heard that story in 1995, and it probably goes back much farther than that. An aviation "urban legend" passed down through the generations. It is probably true, but it happened a long, long time ago.

 

[siucavflight]

Reminds me of a story I once heard.

There was this guy who would pad his logbook by copying down the tail numbers of various twins that he saw take off from various airports. One day this pilot went for say an ATP rating and during the oral the examiner reviewed his logbook. Upon coming across a particular plane, the examiner asked about "N12345" and whether he liked flying this particular plane since he had an ample amount of time in it. The applicant of course made some indication of his thoughts on the plane being questioned about. Something to the effect of "yeah, its a smooth plane to fly, yadda yadda yadda." The examiner found this funny as the particular plane he asked about actually belonged to the examiner himself. Caught in a lie, this guy lost all his certificates.

Seems like everyone knows this guy.

 

[kansas]

Related question: How do you log your night time? I know some people go through the trouble of figuring out nautical twighlight etc. I've always just used the one hour after/one hour before sunset.

The one hour before/after always seems to be when it is reasonably dark out. So, this is ridiculously subjective, but for my own sanity, I just count it as night if it is "dark" to me. Otherwise, after a 7 leg day, I'd be more confused than a goose playing chess with Bobby Fisher.

I've seen people log sole manip PIC in King Airs for the entire flight time, even though they only flew the empty leg. Log PIC in a Baron when they were working the radio. Some have had ATPs sign off flight time in King Airs Part 91 even though they weren't flying with an MEI. And log huge numbers of hours on single engine when they were just riding. If I logged like some of these folks I'd have a whole lot more than my puny 300+ hours over eight years. I'd have about 50 hours of King Air and Baron time already. :nuts:

Logging PIC in King Airs when not the manipulator is undoubtedly shady. However, an ATP signing off on the time is perfectly acceptable, as long as you log it as dual received, since they are authorized to give up to 8 hours/day, 34 hours/week of instruction. I also did some flying with a non-MEI in a Baron. I just split the time right down the middle, which turned out to be about as accurate as anything, since I'd say I flew approximately 50% of the time.

As previously stated, just know how to defend what you log in an interview setting. Chances are, if they ask you and you can point out the specific reg that allows you to log it in a certain way, you will be fine.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

The one hour before/after always seems to be when it is reasonably dark out. So, this is ridiculously subjective, but for my own sanity, I just count it as night if it is "dark" to me. Otherwise, after a 7 leg day, I'd be more confused than a goose playing chess with Bobby Fisher.

Most just ballpark it, but technically... "Night means the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the American Air Almanac, converted to local time."


What's published is approximately 30 minutes (give or take a few minutes) after sunset...

Here's a chart that displays both civil twilight and sunset/sunrise times for each day.


http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear.html


.

 

[A Squared]

However, an ATP signing off on the time is perfectly acceptable, as long as you log it as dual received, since they are authorized to give up to 8 hours/day, 34 hours/week of instruction.

No, not at all. This is one of the more persistent myths in aviation, that an ATP can sign off dual instrucion anytime. I find it a little mystifying why so many people have this one wrong, as it's fairly simple to see that it's not true by reading the regulations. The provision for an ATP to give instruction is a very specific limited provision. The provision is intended to allow airline pilots to give instruction to thier co-pilots, or check airmen on a 135 certificate to instruct without an instructor certificate. It does not bestow all the priveleges of an instructor certificate on anyone who holds an ATP

61.167 (b) An airline transport pilot may instruct --

(1) Other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;

If you are truly being instructed in air transportation service, you are going to be an assigned crewmember anyway, so you don't need to depend on this limited defintion to log the time.

 

[time builder]

The legal definition of "flight time" which is what gets put into the logbook. This definition comes fight out of 14 CFR 1:

Time that commences when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and terminates when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.


Translation: as soon as you start to roll out of the parking spot the clock is ticking and it stops as soon as you stop in the next parking spot.

I've seen guys get suckered into the idea that you can log repo time because you can say that you "intended to take off," but what they forget is that it terminates when the aircraft comes to rest after landing. IE, no landing, no flight time.

On a side note, I'm rather disappointed that a couple companies I've flown with commercially didn't want to see anything but the last page of my log book.