Logbook accuracy

[timeoff]

I had an instructor that used to own his own Aztec. He told me that he logged around 3-4 hours a week in it. Problem was, the plane never moved from the ramp. It had mx issues and two flat tires for as long as I could remember. I guess he figured that since he was the owner, he could pretty much get away with it. He is at a regional now.

Knew another guy that was working on his comm that would always round up to the next whole hour when he flew by himself. It was his way of "saving money".

Have you ever come across anyone that has fradulent or padded time?

 

[honeycomb]

Yes...

I have met a few cheats. Some got caught. Some did not.

I have personally got over a couple of hundred, to maybe even a thousand or so, ride a long hours with my father that will never see a log book. And, for good reason.

Ethics are easy to spot. There seems to be Little or No Shame in general not just in aviation. I think people do it once and it gets easier.

I am not condoning there actions. On the contrary....I despise anyone who has....but as a rational person I know it goes on.

As a side note, I have a military buddy who will take your stated time and take half as an accurate number. He is also used to only counting flight time...just like in the military (I guess)...and no taxi time. That may be his reasoning. But, after you said this...it got me thinking that the real reason was because of un-ethical pilots.

Anyway....I don't give pilots like that (cheats that is) the time of day.

 

[Kingair1181]

Not sure how much of it went on in the past but it seems many of the younger pilots today are doing it. I know of at least 2 pilots who I went to flight school with who inked in their log books til they had their 1200 hours. Probably was they inked in in in a little over a year when I know most of the time they were sitting around an FBO waiting for students. They said although they had only flown X number of hours they had X times 2 hours of experience so they felt it was justified. Now one of them is at a regional and the other is flying cargo. I'll admit I am a little jealous since I still have a ways to go to get there but at least I know that my time is correct. Probably took me an extra 6 months to a year to get it but oh well....

I have a feeling that in the future more and more pilots are going to have their log books screened for this practice because companies can't afford not to.

 

[landlover]

its been going on since at least vietnam. i met an old retired eastern guy that owned a plane, a rockwell commander. went flying with him a few times cause he lost his medical. he told me most guys that came back from vietnam just logged what they needed(usually more than they actually had) to get an interview and that i should log as much time as i needed in his airplane.

 

[SPilot]

Sure I've seen this going on. One hour flight suddenly becomes 5 hour xc, or a backseat ride suddenly becomes PIC. I hope they all get their books verified against FBO or flight school records!

 

[Way2Broke]

I met a guy once that said "Fly what you want, log what you need." He was a private owner talking about insurance minimums. While it would make my life much easier to do so I am not a liar. This is the one thing that keeps setting me back in aviation, but I am hoping that in the long haul my honestly will pay off. I remember the days when I was excited to get .5 in a twin. To come from that to where I am today I take pride in.

 

[A Squared]

Her's a couple of pilots that it didn't work real well for:


http://www.ntsb.gov/o_n_o/docs/AVIATION/4008.PDF

Notice that the penalty is revocation. THat's where they take your pilots certificates aweay and you aren't a pilot any more. If you want to be a pilot, you have to earn the certificates over again, if they let you.

 

[hyflyt560]

I knew a guy who didn't lie, but certainly stretched the truth. For a job at some regional eons ago, he was asked how many multiengine hours he had. He didn't lie and told them the number, which apparantly was enough to get the job. All but whatever it took to get his airplane multi rating were in a UH-60 Blackhawk.

Related question: How do you log your night time? I know some people go through the trouble of figuring out nautical twighlight etc. I've always just used the one hour after/one hour before sunset.

 

[NavajoKing]

I have heard of some guys logging yearly averages instead of logging every flight.

 

[NavajoKing]

when you fly cargo it's always night, so it makes it easy.

 

[N60OSU]

My company's manifests uses on out/in times rather than out/off/on/in. Obviously that then includes taxi time as flight time. It is how I'm paid and how the company tracks my flight time against limitations so it's how I log it in my own logbook. I don't have long taxi times as I fly overnight so my conscience is clear but my question is will I get any grief in an interview if the company uses the four time system?

 

[tomcat]

No, you can log engine start (out) to engine shut down (in). No need to correct for taxi time.

 

[Almerick07]

I recently added up my flight times and found a 9 hour discrepancy somewhere in my total time, I know it is in the logbook i used when I was getting all my ratings but havnt had the time to go through it and find the mistakes. Any suggestions on how I should correct it?

 

[Snakum]

I've seen people log sole manip PIC in King Airs for the entire flight time, even though they only flew the empty leg. Log PIC in a Baron when they were working the radio. Some have had ATPs sign off flight time in King Airs Part 91 even though they weren't flying with an MEI. And log huge numbers of hours on single engine when they were just riding. If I logged like some of these folks I'd have a whole lot more than my puny 300+ hours over eight years. I'd have about 50 hours of King Air and Baron time already. :nuts:

Whether or not anyone else ever finds out about their time, and honestly I doubt they'll ever get busted on it, if I did it ... I'd know. And that's why I don't do it. I'm never going to stutter and stammer in an interview and the time in my log book will always accurately reflect my current abilities, more or less. I could log 500 hours of multi time tomorrow but as soon as I got in an airplane with an experienced pilot ... he'd know it instantly.

The time will come, and the experience gained while building it will be invaluable, and it might possibly even save my life one day.

 

[ackattacker]

Unfortunately I know several people who pad their log books. I've always been meticulous about correct legal logbook times, but there is actually still a few hours in my log book I wish I could go back and change (downwards). When you are low time and clawing your way towards some goal it's easy to want to log every hour possible if you can at all justify it. So you get the PIC time when you were safety pilot, the "dual received" when you were flying straight and level in somebody's Citation, etc. And you see all kinds of discussions on boards like this about what's legal to log. The problem is that once you get to a certain level those "technically legal" hours no longer help you they actually hurt you because you have to try to defend them in an interview. Example, I have seen people kicked out of interviews because they logged PIC time in a King Air and didn't know King Air systems. After seeing that I no longer ask myself "is this legal to log?" I ask myself "Do I want to have to explain this on an interview?".

As for simply padding the time, that does piss me off because of all the hard work and money that went into my time. I don't like cheats. But the unfortunate answer is that it is probably rampant.

 

[siucavflight]

I recently added up my flight times and found a 9 hour discrepancy somewhere in my total time, I know it is in the logbook i used when I was getting all my ratings but havnt had the time to go through it and find the mistakes. Any suggestions on how I should correct it?

I am assuming that either your day and night dont add up to your total time, or your SEL and MEL dont add up to your total time. If you cant find the error take nine hours off of the more difficult time to get, if it is a discrepancy between day and night take 9 hours off of your night and make a star next to it. If it is between SEL and MEL take 9 hours off of your multi time and make a star, and be ready to explain it. As long as you are not making the total time larger to make it work then you should have nothing to worry about.

 

[Horizon]

The FAA often just prescribes meaningless total-time requirements until you're entitled to a certain certificate. What they fail to do is mandate any type of flying under which most of those hours are acquired. THAT is what pisses me off.

Think about it. You need 250TT to get your commercial. So lets say you have your private and your instrument, but still need another 130 hours toward your commercial. Why should you have to spend 10K renting airplanes to acquire these hours, when in the eyes of the FAA, you could legally spend the next 130 hours flying straight and level in clear/million, all the while learning ABSOLUETLY NOTHING. Hell, I've heard stories of guys making every landing a full-stop and back-taxi simply so they can legally log all this time spent ON THE F*CKING GROUND! To me, that's just as bad as padding.

Yeah, well, guess what? If I'm working towards a commercial, I'll be sure to fly only on long XC flights, in IFR conditions, and only into busy class-B airspaces. That way I can simply multiply my hours by two, since I'm getting twice the experience as these retards flying in circles around the pattern gaining NOTHING for the experience!

 

[avbug]

No, you can log engine start (out) to engine shut down (in).

Not legally, you can't.

By that logic, of course, you would need to stop logging if the engine quit enroute, or you could simply sit on the ramp and run the engine to log time.

You may log time from when the aircraft first moves under it's own power until it first comes to a rest at the conclusion of the flight. And that's it.

 

[Princedietrich]

The legal definition of "flight time" which is what gets put into the logbook. This definition comes fight out of 14 CFR 1:

Time that commences when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and terminates when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.


Translation: as soon as you start to roll out of the parking spot the clock is ticking and it stops as soon as you stop in the next parking spot.

 

[Princedietrich]

Now for my funny story about a time padder.

I knew this guy from the aviation program that I trained and taught in, a 141 university flight school. He was a student there while I was a faculty instructor. The school had a few airplanes that were used for 91 transportation flights, and all of the flight school students would climb all over eachother for some right seat time. The fleet consisted of a Chieftain and a King Air 200.

This guy was widely known to sit in the King Air, while it was parked in the hangar, and log the time he spent sitting in it. He was also a self proclaimed expert in the Chieftain when he was nothing more than a gear puller and radio/checklist monkey.

He lasted all of 2 months at Airnet. He got fired for a combination of a sickening ego/attitude and for dropping a Chieftain on its nosegear so hard that the down and locked light went out. To hear the lead mechanic use the word "mangled" to describe the condition of the nosegear was pretty disturbing.

Last I heard, this guy was a waiter.