"Line Up and Wait" - Let's Hear it for Globalization

[avbug]

Easier to just put him on ignore

You can't do that, yourself. Had you done so, you wouldn't be able to read the posts...but you can't help yourself any more than you can help yourself from responding.

Haven't you been embarrassed enough?

That said, this whole thing got started because avthug wasn't smart enough to understand the point I was making (partially in jest), that since ICAO is having such success in getting the USA to change everything it wouldn't surprise me if we had to start speaking French someday at ICAO's insistence (although maybe Chinese would have been more appropriate).

I'm quite smart enough to see that you had spoken stupidly, and that you continue to do so.

You suggest ICAO is "getting the USA to change." How do you suppose this to be so?

Ironic, don't you think, that uninformed poster after uninformed poster (your backers, or should we say, alter egos) seems to believe that the world must conform to ICAO convention, yet you snivel that the US must also conform. You can't have it both ways, you see.

You want the world to speak English for you, but you don't want the US to conform to ICAO convention. Clearly you don't fly outside the US much, aside from your copilot trips to Brazil to pick up a few airplanes. You may recall that the Brazilians speak Portuguese in country, though they also support the convention of speaking English, as well.

Imagine that. No French.

Again, you speak stupidly.

Adherence to ICAO convention isn't merely something that the subservient nations, minus the USA, must observe. We all must observe it. Aviation is a global community.

There's no ICAO standard suggesting that we speak French, incidentally. In the event you've never been there, the French speak English on the radio. Go figure.

There you go again. If ATC doesn't speak English to English speaking flyers, then the ICAO will have a problem with that. Not to mention, Airlines based in English countries that provide service might have a problem with the continuation of that service if that country's ATC does not speak English to their pilots.

ATC does speak English to English speaking flyers. ATC in most countries also speaks their own language locally. This is not a problem.

Do you not operate internationally?

Condescension? Huh? Sure, ICAO signatories can break away from ICAO standards. However, if that country wants reciprocation along with any of the other benefits that come from association with ICAO, they need to adhere to ICAO standards...which includes speaking English to English speaking flyers.

Which country is it, of which you're aware, that does not use English in ATC communications? I have not encountered this, and I have dealt with them all. Perhaps you visit another planet, then?

Every ATC globally speaks English. Each country also uses their own language locally. This is not a problem. Perhaps you're merely confused, or simply ignorant or inexperienced enough that you don't know the difference. Either way, no matter.

For one thing, everyone speaking the same language certainly enhances situational awareness. Wouldn't you agree?

Unless you intend to take over the role of ATC and mold it to your own twisted ideas, then no, I don't agree. Given that ATC is conducted on multiple frequencies, often you won't hear all sides of a conversation anyway, making the issue of language used by or to others, irrelevant.

Again, a situation where you need to mind your business, which will include your clearances, and communication with your callsign. Mind your own business.

Have you ever looked at 91.703? Might be a good idea before you leave the USA.

This, you mean? Which part?

§ 91.703 Operations of civil aircraft of U.S. registry outside of the United States.

(a) Each person operating a civil aircraft of U.S. registry outside of the United States shall -

(1) When over the high seas, comply with annex 2 (Rules of the Air) to the Convention on International Civil Aviation and with §§ 91.117(c), 91.127, 91.129, and 91.131;

(2) When within a foreign country, comply with the regulations relating to the flight and maneuver of aircraft there in force;

(3) Except for §§ 91.117(a), 91.307(b), 91.309, 91.323, and 91.711, comply with this part so far as it is not inconsistent with applicable regulations of the foreign country where the aircraft is operated or annex 2 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation; and

(4) When operating within airspace designated as Minimum Navigation Performance Specifications (MNPS) airspace, comply with § 91.705. When operating within airspace designated as Reduced Vertical Separation Minimum (RVSM) airspace, comply with § 91.706.

(5) For aircraft subject to ICAO Annex 16, carry on board the aircraft documents that summarize the noise operating characteristics and certifications of the aircraft that demonstrate compliance with this part and part 36 of this chapter.

(b) Annex 2 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, Ninth Edition -- July 1990, with Amendments through Amendment 32 effective February 19, 1996, to which reference is made in this part, is incorporated into this part and made a part hereof as provided in 5 U.S.C. § 552 and pursuant to 1 CFR part 51. Annex 2 (including a complete historic file of changes thereto) is available for public inspection at the Rules Docket, AGC-200, Federal Aviation Administration, 800 Independence Avenue SW., Washington, DC 20591; or at the Office of the Federal Register, 800 North Capitol Street, NW., Suite 700, Washington, DC. In addition, Annex 2 may be purchased from the International Civil Aviation Organization (Attention: Distribution Officer), P.O. Box 400, Succursale, Place de L'Aviation Internationale, 1000 Sherbrooke Street West, Montreal, Quebec, Canada H3A 2R2.

Be specific.

 

[2000Easyguy]

"Unless you intend to take over the role of ATC and mold it to your own twisted ideas, then no, I don't agree. Given that ATC is conducted on multiple frequencies, often you won't hear all sides of a conversation anyway, making the issue of language used by or to others, irrelevant.

Again, a situation where you need to mind your business, which will include your clearances, and communication with your callsign. Mind your own business". Avbug


Situational awareness!!! You're "old school" policy is fading fast! We're striving to be a safer community, using all resources available!
I don't know any of these other posters, yet we're all in agreement!

 

[avbug]

Old school? Fine. All you'll need to do is convince every country on the planet that's a signatory to the Convention and it's annexes that they may only speak English at all times in their native land.

Presently the Annexes only require that English be spoken by ATC and crews of international operations (whereas ICAO is an international convention, you see).

Domestic, local traffic is often handled in the native tongue in nearly every country on the planet, without any violation or indifference to ICAO convention.

Accordingly, there's no ground to suspect, suppose, or speculate that ATC in this country will be speaking French any time soon...given that our own native language is English, as is the international language of ICAO.

You find this "old school," do you?

Then you find the facts to be "old school," as do you the truth.

Perhaps you'll find more enlightenment in fiction. LegacyDriver is good at that.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Come on folks, haven't you heard? Avthug was doing the walkaround for his 152 when his Captain stubbed his toe and muttered, "Geezus Keerist."
Avthug politely corrected his Captain, "Close--but He is actually my son."

 

[waka]

Ironic, don't you think, that uninformed poster after uninformed poster (your backers, or should we say, alter egos) seems to believe that the world must conform to ICAO convention, yet you snivel that the US must also conform. You can't have it both ways, you see.

avbug, I would think that you're funny if you weren't so dense! "Alter egos?" Just because there is consensus in disagreement with your stupid postings doesn't mean that everyone disagreeing with your posts is an alter ego.

You want the world to speak English for you, but you don't want the US to conform to ICAO convention. Clearly you don't fly outside the US much, aside from your copilot trips to Brazil to pick up a few airplanes. You may recall that the Brazilians speak Portuguese in country, though they also support the convention of speaking English, as well.

Imagine that. No French.

Again, you speak stupidly.

Adherence to ICAO convention isn't merely something that the subservient nations, minus the USA, must observe. We all must observe it. Aviation is a global community.

There's no ICAO standard suggesting that we speak French, incidentally. In the event you've never been there, the French speak English on the radio. Go figure.

ATC does speak English to English speaking flyers. ATC in most countries also speaks their own language locally. This is not a problem.

As a "courtesy", according to you.

Do you not operate internationally?

Which country is it, of which you're aware, that does not use English in ATC communications? I have not encountered this, and I have dealt with them all. Perhaps you visit another planet, then?

That is some straw man BS. I never implied that there is an ICAO signatory that doesn't speak English in ATC communications.

You contradicted yourself on at least 3 posts in this thread, then you wonder why people call your BS. You clearly and repeatedly implied that ATC speaking English to English speaking flyers is a "courtesy".

Maybe you're not dense. I actually think that you're a pretty smart guy. The problem is that your misplaced arrogance makes it such that you even lie to yourself and cannot admit when you have stumbled over your own words.

You know, the FAA now allows pilots to take some anti depressants and maintain 1st and 2nd class medical certificates. I don't know the details, but you should definitely check into that.

 

[lookin4better]

I have never liked having to say that. It sounds ridiculous. Maybe it is just me but our capitulation on this just smacks as another sign that the USA is fading...Why don't we tell ICAO and the JAA to stuff it in their ears?We convert licenses here fairly easily for them but they won't do it for us. Airbus' subsidies took down McDD and almost whacked Boeing. The list is long,Supposedly they are pushing us to abandon TERPS and "go Euro" on everything. Any way... Not sure why I even mention it...just seems "par for the course" in the USA these days...

As he flies his Brazilian made airplane.....

yeah its all over because of standardizing phraseology.... are we paranoid about the common freight train also?

 

[avbug]

You contradicted yourself on at least 3 posts in this thread, then you wonder why people call your BS. You clearly and repeatedly implied that ATC speaking English to English speaking flyers is a "courtesy".

There are no contradictions; merely your inability to comprehend.

Whereas the ICAO convention is not regulatory, any participation thereof is indeed a courtesy. This includes speaking English for international operations.

It also includes keeping your panties on, for you Ugly Americans, who can't seem to handle languages other than English being legitimately spoken domestically in each respective country.

As for LegacyDriver and his fruitcake notion that standardizing terminology represents a movement toward speaking French in the USA, what can one say? Sheer stupidity.

 

[LegacyDriver]

As he flies his Brazilian made airplane.....

yeah its all over because of standardizing phraseology.... are we paranoid about the common freight train also?

It goes way beyond that. Or have you been asleep? Just wait until TERPS goes away and the push to eliminate a standard FL180 transition for the "Euro Way.". And 15 SIDs on one plate. And getting the SID after your line up and wait. ICAO pushes and the US never pushes *back*. That pisses me off as much as this dbag Muslim President bowing to everyone. S*ck it!

 

[LegacyDriver]

And my Brazilian jet represents America's fall from grace. When Brazil can build a better jet than anything made in the USA you know once and for all these are the last days of Rome. Go fiddle on your roof, Nero.

 

[avbug]

When Brazil can build a better jet than anything made in the USA you know once and for all these are the last days of Rome.

That hasn't happened yet, and your favorite toy airplane is no exception. In fact, presently the airlines are poised to start cutting regional jets like the RJ and ERJ in large quantities...because they've proven less efficient and less effective, and more costly than larger aircraft. Fiddle around with that.

Just wait until TERPS goes away and the push to eliminate a standard FL180 transition for the "Euro Way.".

Are you sure it's TERPS and not 14 CFR Part 25? You seem to have a lot of trouble telling the two apart.

Are you not familiar with PANS OPS?

So...first you had us all speaking French as a result of standardizing common phraseology, and now you've changed your tune and got us recreating departure procedures and altering our airspace system. You whine about conforming to ICAO, and your loyal minions (who fail to grasp the nature of the Convention) whine that others don't do enough to conform. Quite a lot you make, however extremely inconsistent you may be.