"Line Up and Wait" - Let's Hear it for Globalization

[lookin4better]

I have never liked having to say that. It sounds ridiculous. Maybe it is just me but our capitulation on this just smacks as another sign that the USA is fading...Why don't we tell ICAO and the JAA to stuff it in their ears?We convert licenses here fairly easily for them but they won't do it for us. Airbus' subsidies took down McDD and almost whacked Boeing. The list is long,Supposedly they are pushing us to abandon TERPS and "go Euro" on everything. Any way... Not sure why I even mention it...just seems "par for the course" in the USA these days...

As he flies his Brazilian made airplane.....

yeah its all over because of standardizing phraseology.... are we paranoid about the common freight train also?

 

[avbug]

You contradicted yourself on at least 3 posts in this thread, then you wonder why people call your BS. You clearly and repeatedly implied that ATC speaking English to English speaking flyers is a "courtesy".

There are no contradictions; merely your inability to comprehend.

Whereas the ICAO convention is not regulatory, any participation thereof is indeed a courtesy. This includes speaking English for international operations.

It also includes keeping your panties on, for you Ugly Americans, who can't seem to handle languages other than English being legitimately spoken domestically in each respective country.

As for LegacyDriver and his fruitcake notion that standardizing terminology represents a movement toward speaking French in the USA, what can one say? Sheer stupidity.

 

[LegacyDriver]

As he flies his Brazilian made airplane.....

yeah its all over because of standardizing phraseology.... are we paranoid about the common freight train also?

It goes way beyond that. Or have you been asleep? Just wait until TERPS goes away and the push to eliminate a standard FL180 transition for the "Euro Way.". And 15 SIDs on one plate. And getting the SID after your line up and wait. ICAO pushes and the US never pushes *back*. That pisses me off as much as this dbag Muslim President bowing to everyone. S*ck it!

 

[LegacyDriver]

And my Brazilian jet represents America's fall from grace. When Brazil can build a better jet than anything made in the USA you know once and for all these are the last days of Rome. Go fiddle on your roof, Nero.

 

[avbug]

When Brazil can build a better jet than anything made in the USA you know once and for all these are the last days of Rome.

That hasn't happened yet, and your favorite toy airplane is no exception. In fact, presently the airlines are poised to start cutting regional jets like the RJ and ERJ in large quantities...because they've proven less efficient and less effective, and more costly than larger aircraft. Fiddle around with that.

Just wait until TERPS goes away and the push to eliminate a standard FL180 transition for the "Euro Way.".

Are you sure it's TERPS and not 14 CFR Part 25? You seem to have a lot of trouble telling the two apart.

Are you not familiar with PANS OPS?

So...first you had us all speaking French as a result of standardizing common phraseology, and now you've changed your tune and got us recreating departure procedures and altering our airspace system. You whine about conforming to ICAO, and your loyal minions (who fail to grasp the nature of the Convention) whine that others don't do enough to conform. Quite a lot you make, however extremely inconsistent you may be.

 

[waka]

There are no contradictions; merely your inability to comprehend.

Whereas the ICAO convention is not regulatory, any participation thereof is indeed a courtesy. This includes speaking English for international operations.

Of course it isn't regulatory, genus. Reciprocation was already explained to you, yet you choose to be incorrigible. Go ahead with living in your fantasy world. You clearly have zero clue about the realities of ICAO and the organization's role in aviation. If you're sincere in your contentions, I doubt you fly internationally.

It also includes keeping your panties on, for you Ugly Americans, who can't seem to handle languages other than English being legitimately spoken domestically in each respective country.

Nobody in this thread indicated any such thing. You simply manufactured a straw-man argument for what reason, I don't know. Perhaps you get some sense of validation from reading your own posts....as in, you like to hear yourself speak. How pathetic.

As for LegacyDriver and his fruitcake notion that standardizing terminology represents a movement toward speaking French in the USA, what can one say? Sheer stupidity.

What is really stupid is your perception based on your preconceived notions.

SSRI's....check into them.

 

[avbug]

Of course it isn't regulatory, genus.

It's genius, thanks, and if you think that covering a simple topic like this is rocket science, you may need some remedial help.

Nobody in this thread indicated any such thing.

Really? Let's review...

First, we have LegacyDriver:
"As crappy as this industry has been the last two years.....now we can't even keep our own phraseology. Pretty soon we'll be speaking French on the radio. "

Then we have 2000Easyguy:
"Right.:erm: Hmm, actually they do speak English and French."

And 2000Easyguy again:
"Actually it is my concern. I tend to listen to other pilots concerning weather and flight conditions. It's called CRM, look into it! "

Then we have NCherches:
"...I will say that having aircraft on the same frequency speaking a different language does not help in one's situational awareness as to where other airplanes are and what they are doing in the terminal enviornment..."

Then, of course, there was YOU, misunderstanding the Annexes:
"If ATC doesn't speak English to English speaking flyers, then the ICAO will have a problem with that. "

And LegacyDriver again:
"That said, this whole thing got started because avthug wasn't smart enough to understand the point I was making (partially in jest), that since ICAO is having such success in getting the USA to change everything it wouldn't surprise me if we had to start speaking French someday at ICAO's insistence (although maybe Chinese would have been more appropriate)."

Let's not forget Gulfstream2345:
"For one thing, everyone speaking the same language certainly enhances situational awareness. Wouldn't you agree?"

So, other than that...perhaps nobody said any such thing. Several posters, in fact, have complained about languages other than English being spoken elsewhere domestically...even though you say otherwise...despite there being nothing in ICAO Convention or Annex to the contrary. Your own assertion that ICAO signatories are required to speak English to English speakers is also in error, of course, as English only need be spoken with regard to international operations. Domestically, it's another story entirely, and a courtesy on the part of each nation's ATC to continue conversation and communication in English for you. You knew that, didn't you?

You simply manufactured a straw-man argument for what reason, I don't know.

Oh, yes you do. You know full well that not only didn't I "manufacture" an argument, but that same argument which you state others didn't introduce or make...others have been shown by quote to have made. You, too.

Sadly, the best you can do is make quips about anti-depressants, and the best others can do isn't much better. No doubt you'll keep trying in your own arrogant little way, but unfortunately, you've offered little hope that you can do better.

 

[waka]

It's genius, thanks,

Is that the best you have? A typo? Judging from your posts, it is the best you have..

and if you think that covering a simple topic like this is rocket science, you may need some remedial help.

That's the funny thing. You don't understand this very simple topic.

So, other than that...perhaps nobody said any such thing. Several posters, in fact, have complained about languages other than English being spoken elsewhere domestically...even though you say otherwise...despite there being nothing in ICAO Convention or Annex to the contrary.

Your comprehension skills will improve if you look at something called context.

Your own assertion that ICAO signatories are required to speak English to English speakers is also in error,

Oh? Genius (is that better?)? So when I'm flying over France and given an altitude assignment in French because they didn't extend me the "courtesy" to give me the clearance in English, ICAO is cool with that? You're such an amateur.

of course, as English only need be spoken with regard to international operations. Domestically, it's another story entirely, and a courtesy on the part of each nation's ATC to continue conversation and communication in English for you. You knew that, didn't you?

Your constant back-pedaling is amusing. Now you're adjusting your words. You clearly implied ad nauseum that English is a "courtesy" in international operations.

Oh, yes you do. You know full well that not only didn't I "manufacture" an argument, but that same argument which you state others didn't introduce or make...others have been shown by quote to have made. You, too.

Yes, you did. One only has to review your posts to see that. No matter how much you take your finger tips in and out of your ears and utter noises so you can't hear, you did.

Sadly, the best you can do is make quips about anti-depressants, and the best others can do isn't much better. No doubt you'll keep trying in your own arrogant little way, but unfortunately, you've offered little hope that you can do better.

As long as your overly inflated ego is involved in these discussions, the mention of anti-depressants for you is germane to the topic. It's one thing if someone can justify said ego. However, you cannot.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Waka,The guy is warped. I've never seen anybody twist something obvious into an unrecognizable pretzel then leap on a soap box to chest beat his intellectual superiority. He can't even understand his *own* arguments but presumes to tell others what *their* points-of-view are.... Nut case all the way.

 

[avbug]

Oh? Genius (is that better?)?

Much, thanks. Your recognition, however, isn't necessary...nor particularly of any great value.

So when I'm flying over France and given an altitude assignment in French because they didn't extend me the "courtesy" to give me the clearance in English, ICAO is cool with that?

Are you an international operator? Per ICAO convention, English is spoken for international operations.

Whereas no country is obligated by law to adhere the Convention, following the Annexes is a courtesy. Not a legal requirement. That all signatory nations do so is an act of grace, not a legal mandate based on international law. An act of grace by nature is, therefore, courtesy.

Whether ICAO is "cool" with something or not is not particularly relevant to the topic. You stated in error that ICAO demands that all nations speak English in aviation operations, when conversing with English speakers. This is untrue, and represents a gross misunderstanding of the Annexes (Particularly 2, 5, 10, and 11).

When you operate internationally, the French will always communicate with you in English. Have you ever had them refuse a clearance because you want it in English? You could say you have, but then you would be lying.

You clearly implied ad nauseum that English is a "courtesy" in international operations.

So I did, but I didn't imply; I stated it directly, because it's a fact.

Adherence to the Convention is an act of courtesy, not obligation. Participation is voluntary by all signatories of the Convention, which did so of their own volition, and not under any international pressure of law. To support, maintain, and adhere to the Convention and it's annexes is therefore a matter of courtesy.

To demand, as numerous posters here have done, as quoted above, that English be spoken outside of the Convention is both egotistical and gregarious; such thinking is arrogantly stupid. To suggest that operations in foreign countries should be conducted in English in all cases, not simply international operations, is unrealistic, and utterly ridiculous.

While France and all other signatories conduct international operations in English as a courtesy to their participation in the ICAO convention, none are obligated to make all radio calls in English, particularly local domestic flights. Accordingly, in every country you will hear radio traffic in their native tongue; this is not in violation of the Convention or any annex, and is right and proper.

Those Ugly Americans who would have it otherwise, speak out of turn.

You would be one of the Ugly Americans...and the 95%, otherwise known as the "wet salt" crowd.

 

[NCherches]

...This post reminds me of being in High-School without all the skanky girls...

 

[waka]

Are you an international operator? Per ICAO convention, English is spoken for international operations.

Whereas no country is obligated by law to adhere the Convention, following the Annexes is a courtesy. Not a legal requirement. That all signatory nations do so is an act of grace, not a legal mandate based on international law. An act of grace by nature is, therefore, courtesy.

Whether ICAO is "cool" with something or not is not particularly relevant to the topic. You stated in error that ICAO demands that all nations speak English in aviation operations, when conversing with English speakers. This is untrue, and represents a gross misunderstanding of the Annexes (Particularly 2, 5, 10, and 11).

When you operate internationally, the French will always communicate with you in English. Have you ever had them refuse a clearance because you want it in English? You could say you have, but then you would be lying.



So I did, but I didn't imply; I stated it directly, because it's a fact.

Adherence to the Convention is an act of courtesy, not obligation. Participation is voluntary by all signatories of the Convention, which did so of their own volition, and not under any international pressure of law. To support, maintain, and adhere to the Convention and it's annexes is therefore a matter of courtesy.

To demand, as numerous posters here have done, as quoted above, that English be spoken outside of the Convention is both egotistical and gregarious; such thinking is arrogantly stupid. To suggest that operations in foreign countries should be conducted in English in all cases, not simply international operations, is unrealistic, and utterly ridiculous.

While France and all other signatories conduct international operations in English as a courtesy to their participation in the ICAO convention, none are obligated to make all radio calls in English, particularly local domestic flights. Accordingly, in every country you will hear radio traffic in their native tongue; this is not in violation of the Convention or any annex, and is right and proper.

Those Ugly Americans who would have it otherwise, speak out of turn.

You would be one of the Ugly Americans...and the 95%, otherwise known as the "wet salt" crowd.

I didn't say anything about legality. It is obvious and elementary that there are no legally binding requirements. What you fail to understand is that it is impractical from both a safety and business perspective for a country to not follow ICAO standards. This includes speaking English. Your insistence that ATC giving clearances in English is a "courtesy" demonstrates your lack of understanding of the purpose for ICAO and the ATC system.

With all of your back-pedaling, multiple failures to acknowledge your own words when quoted to you, ignoring of relevant facts, lack of comprehension and straw-man arguments, I am finished with your circular reasoning moron-athon.

 

[waka]

Deleted; Double post.

 

[waka]

Waka,The guy is warped. I've never seen anybody twist something obvious into an unrecognizable pretzel then leap on a soap box to chest beat his intellectual superiority. He can't even understand his *own* arguments but presumes to tell others what *their* points-of-view are.... Nut case all the way.

Nicely put. I should have ended it several posts ago. No matter how wrong he is, he will only be happy when you tell him that he's right. After all, I cannot deny him his daily sense of validation that he gets from these forums.

 

[BornAgainPagan]

What is that saying? Something to the effect of the more you argue with an idiot, the more you look like an idiot?