letter from retired AAA captain

[cactusboy53]

Wave;
From your type written words to a DFR lawsuit. We need to see if we will keep ALPA or not. If we are sucked into the USAPA machine, look for lots of litigation....The good news you ask? The opposition lawyer's children all get new BMW Z4 roadsters as a highschool graduation present!!

If we keep ALPA, then the ball is in Prater's court regarding the JNC participation of the AAA pilots. Gee, I wonder if Prater will act like a president of a labor union??

 

[MCDU]

Stagnation in regards to airframes. Recall was due to 400 plus leaving a year.

Hey Dave, how did your merger with Mountain Air get handled in 1998?

Marty

 

[FR8mastr]

Wave;
. Gee, I wonder if Prater will act like a president of a labor union??

Why would he start now?

 

[FR8mastr]

Marty;
Yes they say the 737's are going to be replaced, but I have heard that when the leases come up....low and behold LCC keeps them at a good rate. No proof, but since LCC is still hiring and not reducing in force on the east...that would lend to this theory. In other words if you are replacing airplane for airplane, there should be no need to hire...right? Hiring stagnation briefly as a result of age 60/65...but the beat goes on.

They are hiring because of retirements and pilots leaving for greener pastures, as well as medicals. This is not growth. The East was running short for years, they just finally ran out of wiggle room. One look at the fleet count proves this is not growth.

I hope you are correct about the 737's

 

[Boeing747Driver]

If we keep ALPA, then the ball is in Prater's court regarding the JNC participation of the AAA pilots. Gee, I wonder if Prater will act like a president of a labor union??

We all know the answer to that one.

 

[waveflyer]

cactusboy- there might be a good reason for this- but why do you have to wait? Doesn't alpa currently represent AAA- and haven't THEY been in violation of the transition agreement by walking away for some time now?

educate me
thx

 

[cactusboy53]

Stagnation in regards to airframes. Recall was due to 400 plus leaving a year.

Hey Dave, how did your merger with Mountain Air get handled in 1998?

Marty

I was hired at AWAC after MAX was aquired by AWAC, so I was below them in seniority anyway. AWAC had two classes before (Jan & Mar I think), so I believe that those groups were placed according to relative seniority of some sort, NOT DATE OF HIRE.

I was just basking in the right seat of the BAe146 as a new hire (line holder, no less!!). I guess UAL just kicked some dirt bag (J.O.) and his company off the property, and said they (UAL) never wanted to see them ever again. Funny, huh?

 

[cactusboy53]

cactusboy- there might be a good reason for this- but why do you have to wait? Doesn't alpa currently represent AAA- and haven't THEY been in violation of the transition agreement by walking away for some time now?

educate me
thx

Wave;
That is the $120,000 a day question. The answer might only be found in the phrase: Hindsight is always 20/20. Shoulda, woulda, coulda...

What Prater should have done is examine the award and deliver it within 30 days of getting it. He then should have instructed the AAA group to return to the JNC table ASAP. The window for significant contract improvements was open then (perhaps not so much now).

We will see what this vote brings, and then what further guidance from ALPA National (if they remain). ALPA is still the quickest way for money to return (especially) to the east pilot's pockets.

 

[whymeworry?]

So how do SWAPA, APA, and IPA pilots survive without the mighty ALPA?

 

[TWA Dude]

Interestingly, by banding together:
http://www.capapilots.org/about.asp

I guess there's something to the "strength in numbers" thing.

 

[PCL_128]

So how do SWAPA, APA, and IPA pilots survive without the mighty ALPA?

They don't. They pay ALPA unbelievable amounts of money to do the things for them that they can't do themselves.

 

[TurboAWD]

So how do SWAPA, APA, and IPA pilots survive without the mighty ALPA?

Not going through CH11 doesn't hurt, either.

Turbo

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not going through CH11 doesn't hurt, either.

Turbo

Right, because pilots prior to 9/11 had a crystal ball.....

In addition, those in house unions have ZERO say in cabatoge, the MPL issue, foreign ownership/control, the effect of global alliances and transnational airlines... all forces that will effect them...

 

[waveflyer]

right-- as if alpa has a ton to say on those issues- and why support it anyway if- like 65- the leadership fulfills it's own agenda anyway- at some point you have to ask- why do i keep empowering these guys?
sincerely,
devil's advocate

p.s. the implication is that the alpa contracts are what drove those companies into bk- nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[JoeMerchant]

....ALPAs already rolled over on the MPL issue....They aren't even opposing it....Why not Rez?

 

[PCL_128]

....ALPAs already rolled over on the MPL issue....They aren't even opposing it....Why not Rez?

Why don't you call the DC office and ask Paul Rice? Naw, you'll just keep running your mouth here instead.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Why don't you call the DC office and ask Paul Rice? Naw, you'll just keep running your mouth here instead.

The ALPA magazine said that MPL was coming and that ALPA wanted a seat at the table for how to implement it.....Pretty clear to me.....

Are you saying that article on MPL was incorrect?

I would assume that if they were opposed to the idea of a MPL they would state it.....

 

[PCL_128]

The ALPA magazine said that MPL was coming and that ALPA wanted a seat at the table for how to implement it.....Pretty clear to me.....

Are you saying that article on MPL was incorrect?

I would assume that if they were opposed to the idea of a MPL they would state it.....

If you already know the answer, then why are you asking the question?

 

[JoeMerchant]

If you already know the answer, then why are you asking the question?

Because you implied that my information was incorrect....If you have information that contradicts what the ALPA rag said....then spill the beans...

Maybe I will give ALPA kudos if they actually fight the MPL.....So I will ask again.....Does ALPA oppose the MPL? A simple Yes or No will do......If the answer is yes....then I will support them in that endeavor.....

 

[PCL_128]

Because you implied that my information was incorrect....If you have information that contradicts what the ALPA rag said....then spill the beans...

I wasn't implying anything. You asked a question that you apparently already knew the answer to. Seems pointless to me. If you don't understand their explanation, then again, call the DC office or Herndon and ask someone. The phones really do work up there, Joey. Maybe you should try them out instead of just posting your complaints here.

Maybe I will give ALPA kudos if they actually fight the MPL.....So I will ask again.....Does ALPA oppose the MPL? A simple Yes or No will do......If the answer is yes....then I will support them in that endeavor.....

Again you're asking a question that you already know the answer to. Why? I can assure you that the personal opinions of pretty much everyone in Herndon are opposed to the MPL. That doesn't mean that they're going to beat their heads against the wall trying to stop something that can't be stopped. It seems that that's what you'd have them do.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

....ALPAs already rolled over on the MPL issue....They aren't even opposing it....Why not Rez?

Because it is a gov't/industry implementation....

Think hard about this Joe.... is ALPA gov't or managment?

If ALPA isn't gov't and gov't creates the laws, then why would you expect ALPA to stop it? IF ALPA could stop it... then would that make ALPA a law creating organization...


Air Line Pilots Don't Run Airlines...



There will always be schemes like MPL... that pilots don't like... and guys like you will always blame ALPA for them... when MPL wasn't created by ALPA...


Finally, first tell us what is BAD about MPL...

then tell us how to fix it ..... or make it better...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Rez and PCL....

So ALPA can't stop MPL and that is why they don't oppose it?

1. Why did they oppose changing age 60 for so many years? Did they effect the age 60 issue?

2. Why did ALPA support "one level of safety"? Did they have an affect on it being implemented?

3. If they can't stop MPL, then why do you think they can stop cabotage?

4. If other professions have had success making requirements tougher, then why can't your darling organization not at least fight to not make them even easier?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Because it is a gov't/industry implementation....

Think hard about this Joe.... is ALPA gov't or managment?

If ALPA isn't gov't and gov't creates the laws, then why would you expect ALPA to stop it? IF ALPA could stop it... then would that make ALPA a law creating organization...

...then why did ALPA fight the age 60 for so long.... Why did ALPA fight for "one level of safety"......Are you saying ALPA doesn't have an effect on the formation of FARs? Did they not affect age 60 or "one level of safety"?

 

[PCL_128]

Rez and PCL....

So ALPA can't stop MPL and that is why they don't oppose it?

ALPA can affect it, but not stop it. Stopping something that is already being embraced around the world where there is an ongoing pilot shortage is not a realistic idea. Believe me, Joe, I hate the MPL, and so does every other ALPA rep I know. It's a shame that you weren't at the '06 BOD when this was first discussed. Captain Rice briefed us on it, and there was no doubt that he was vehemently opposed to the idea. But personal opposition and actually being able to stop it are two different things.

1. Why did they oppose changing age 60 for so many years? Did they effect the age 60 issue?

For many years, keeping Age 60 was a plausible goal. In my opinion, if ALPA's policy hadn't changed last year, we probably could have held it off for a few more years even. However, it would have reached a point where the only solution would have been influencing the change rather than stopping it. We have the ability to affect the political process, but our abilities are not absolute. Especially when only a fraction of the membership backs the PAC.

2. Why did ALPA support "one level of safety"? Did they have an affect on it being implemented?

It took almost a decade, but it paid off in the end. Yes, ALPA does have the ability to influence the political process in some cases. However, the MPL issue is unlikely to be one of those cases.

3. If they can't stop MPL, then why do you think they can stop cabotage?

I doubt they can stop if forever. It's a matter of delaying, in my opinion, much like Age 60. We can probably hold it off for many years, maybe even decades, but stopping it completely is unlikely. At least as long as your right-wing buddies have anything to say about it.

4. If other professions have had success making requirements tougher, then why can't your darling organization not at least fight to not make them even easier?

That's what they're doing, Joe. Hopefully they'll be able to influence the process so the MPL isn't as scary as the plan appears to be right now. Maybe if you'd send a check to ALPA-PAC they could be more successful.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

?

3. If they can't stop MPL, then why do you think they can stop cabotage?

Joe... you expect ALPA to win every game. Tiger Woods doesn't win every game...

4. If other professions have had success making requirements tougher, then why can't your darling organization not at least fight to not make them even easier?

Because guys like you are sueing ALPA... how can pilots progress when thier dies money is going to whiners like you that insist on minority rights over the majority....

Pilot labor is at the expense of management. Its been like this forever, but pilots think everyone loves them and they should get what they want....

No once cares about pilots.... unfortantely.... too many pilots don't care about pilots...

 

[waveflyer]

Face it Joe- you have one responsibility- to make the job you do at ASA more valuable to your seniority list. It's the only thing you control.
Across the industry- we need to start valuing the junior pilot. Stop the carrot mentality. If you're qualified on an a/c you should get paid that amount- you shouldn't have to wait 10 years for the same exact skill set to be worth something. A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow.

Have a friend hired in a european carrier- made $90k his first year. The problem is wages so low we're all willing to slit our own throats to get to the high paying gigs.

Looking out for the senior tells management we can be divided. Looking out for the junior tells management that we're not willing to sacrifice any of us. It sends so many messages it's not even funny

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe... you expect ALPA to win every game. Tiger Woods doesn't win every game...

On MPL, ALPA hasn't showed up to the game...Why not oppose it first before you roll over on it....ALPA hasn't even tried to tighten the requirements.....The AMA and ABA would never accept the premise that they can't influence the requirements to become doctors or lawyers...Why does ALPA roll over on it?

Because guys like you are sueing ALPA... how can pilots progress when thier dies money is going to whiners like you that insist on minority rights over the majority....

Pilot labor is at the expense of management. Its been like this forever, but pilots think everyone loves them and they should get what they want....

No once cares about pilots.... unfortantely.... too many pilots don't care about pilots...

I don't think everyone loves us......and I know my fellow ALPA "brothers" don't care about me.....I'm glad you can at least admit that most pilots don't care about pilots......I learned that a long time ago....

Blaming this all on the RJDC lawsuit is really a stretch even for a spinmeister like you....Is it causing global warming also? There are many other lawsuits and I'm guessing a few will be spawned from the AWA/USAir debacle....They will make the RJDC lawsuit look like childs play....

 

[TurboAWD]

I for one would welcome an organized training system for the pilots that sit in the right seat of an RJ rather that the hodge-podge of experience we currently get with our 250hr total time FO's.

And I would like ALPA to be involved in that discussion.

Turbo

 

[JoeMerchant]

Face it Joe- you have one responsibility- to make the job you do at ASA more valuable to your seniority list. It's the only thing you control.
Across the industry- we need to start valuing the junior pilot. Stop the carrot mentality. If you're qualified on an a/c you should get paid that amount- you shouldn't have to wait 10 years for the same exact skill set to be worth something. A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow.

Have a friend hired in a european carrier- made $90k his first year. The problem is wages so low we're all willing to slit our own throats to get to the high paying gigs.

Looking out for the senior tells management we can be divided. Looking out for the junior tells management that we're not willing to sacrifice any of us. It sends so many messages it's not even funny

In theory you are correct.....I have always advocated a more compressed pay scale for pilots....The vast difference has created these conflicts....

However I have to deal with the reality that exists today.....While I agree with you on the pay issue and national seniority list....I don't see either happening.....

Regarding looking out for the junior folks......I doubt many of them give a darn about the interests of the regional "lifers".....While your points are valid....The fact is the "junior" folks really just want the "senior" folks to get out of their way.....Look at the age 60 issue....I don't see either camp looking at it from the other's point of view....There is greed to go on all sides of these issues....

 

[waveflyer]

No- you'll never see me down age 65. There are too many reasons it's unfair retirement wise. I would've liked to see it go to only 62 when SS kicks in- and a slower implementation- and that's where ALPA leadership sold me out. But the idea of 65 isn't what gets me. It's that after 7 years of really hard times, we finally had movement again- and that was severly slowed by age 65 happening SO QUICKLY. And though maybe ALPA couldn't have stopped it- which is debatable- they surely could have slowed the implementation. The timing of it just sucked. What i would like in return for that however is support from senior people to make the FO position a livable job again. If you're going to extend my time in the position by 3-4 years-after what i've already just been through(!)- make it worthwhile again. I know you might think $40k is a great job- but it fails to impress me as an adult.

As far as the regional lifer thing-that's tough- b/c i see why you'd want to do it. You're adjusting to the situation- but it creates a dynamic where you try to protect a job that the major airline pilot group gave to you by selling you out. ?? Now you're protecting your job w/ scope- which by releasing it at the major level is the only reason you had a job. This has been one of alpa's biggest failures. Especially when every solution is deemed "unworkable" by the ALPA leadership and lawyers. You got us in- but my generation will have to pay the price to get us out of that mess.