letter from retired AAA captain

[Prog 2/2]

You can say that it is the intent of USAPA to harm another group....IMO, the Nicolau award was the straw that finally broke the camels back.

You're right. Just saying it does not make it so.

So why does reordering the list figure so prominently in all, and I mean all, of USAPA's stated goals and intentions?

If a redo of the list, contract fences, or"bidding restrictions", and a subsequent screwing of the west, is not what USAPA is about, then why not publicly renounce any intention of doing so?

I'll even give you an answer to that one.

They can't, because a complete gutting of Nicolau is the only thing that is driving the USAPA bus.

Circumventing a binding arbitration decision is the only purpose they have.

No AAA pilot, except Bebee and the MEC officers were happy with ALPA after BK1. The stuff that happened under the watchful eyes of ALPA National since 9/11 has sealed their fate.

Once more, what happened after 9/11 also happened under the "watchful eyes" of you and your duly elected reps, as well as ALPA.

You had the vote, you had the power to recall, and you had the ability to charge your MC with the power to negotiate something other than strict DOH.

What occured after 9/11 has more to do with the people you chose to represent you, and the mandate you gave them, than anything that ALPA did, or did not do.

Better to stand up and fight than to go out with a wimper on your knees.....That is what ALPA is all about. Lay YOUR career at the feet of someone else who will benefit for the good of the profession. Mind you, the people who are screaming the most about that have never had to endure anything like the AAA pilots have.

The people doing the most screaming are those that are most in jeopardy of being harmed by your vindictiveness and sense of entitlement.

Truly sorry about the tough breaks you and your colleagues have suffered over the past few years. The industry hasn't been a bed of roses for anybody, though, has it?

So where, then, is it written that you should get to recoup all, or even some of, what you lost at the expense of the west?

It is not incumbent upon any west pilot to make you whole at their expense.

Does the APA, the IPA, and the SWAPA harm the profession? I didn't think so.

You're right. They don't.

But then again, they don't exist just to screw another group of pilots, now do they?

A350

You can wrap yourself in the "ALPA failed us" flag all you want, but what's really going on here is a seat grab, nothing more.

 

[Prog 2/2]

The AAA guys voting for USAPA know what they're doing.

Yep, they sure do.

They're attempting to get around a binding arbitration decision under a USAPA smokescreen.

An arbitration that they willingly submitted to; with a decision issued by an arbitration panel that they helped pick; and after a process that didn't become "flawed" until they didn't get their way.

Yep. They know what they are doing.

And so should the rest of you.

 

[A350]

Prog:

If you say the Nic award cannot be overturned, then why do you care if it is ALPA or USAPA?

ALPA's track record is pattern bargaining, which hasn't done so well post 9/11. It has gotten so bad that regional carriers were getting undercut by mainline carriers to keep their own flying...at least with an independant, you can do what suits you and not worry that your management will replace you with another union pilot represented by the same union you belong to.

BTW, the watchful eye of National was all we had at USAir to keep us from our own MEC and management. That is because ALPA national decided a long time ago that representation on the BOD of the company was something worth going for....and it went a long way helping management cut the head off the pilots union by having "closed" meetings where multiple items like pay, scope, and pensions were decided without the membership even having a vote.

The other unions do harm the profession, according to their biggest cheerleader who is a member of one of the unions he claims is so harmful....


A350

 

[FR8mastr]

Indirectly, yes. For pilots to have the most leverage, they all need to be unified under a single banner.

Now that's funny.

While I agree with you 100% on the one banner thing, ALPA is not it. If they were, they would not sign concessionary poverty wage, BS deals for contract carriers who's sole purpose in life is to undercut their ML partner.
Yea Yea I know its all US air pilots fault, so save it. It's my opinion that this is exactly what a national union is supposed to do. Prevent the whip saw!

 

[PCL_128]

PCL....then why don't you condone a jumpseat war with SWA

Because SWAPA isn't actively trying to screw over the pilots from any other airline. uSAPa is nothing but an attempt to rape the West pilots. That's the organization's entire reason for being. They will claim all sorts of grandiose ideals to justify their existence, but we all know what it's really about: raping the West pilots of the seniority that was awarded them in the Nic decision. That places the uSAPa supporters just half a step above SCABs.

 

[Sig]

ALPA's track record is pattern bargaining, which hasn't done so well post 9/11.

Which contracts' amendable dates that came up since 9/11 that were harmed by pattern bargaining?

And does this mean USAPA is going to be a strictly interest-based bargaining agent, or does it mean ALPA is never interest-based anywhere at any time, or does it mean anything at all?

 

[flygirlqt]

That places the uSAPa supporters just half a step above SCABs.

Right next to people who paid for their jobs.

 

[A350]

PCL:

Your totally inappropriate use of the SCAB word shows just how out of it you really are.

Look up the definition Mr. Union boy and get back to me.

ALPA history is littered with pilot groups trying to screw each other....need I list them>

A350

 

[cactusboy53]

.....ALPA can choose to start solving some of it's biggest problems, scope and mergers, or it can suffer the consequences......Lawsuits and decertification drives....The choice belongs to you ALPA cheerleaders....

Prove us wrong Rez....Go back to Herndon and change things....or not.....

Joe;
I'm a little confused. You seek ALPA to start solving problems like scope & merger. Does the merger section need to be fixed because the east pilots are more upset (by sheer number) than the west pilots? My understanding is the last major change to the ALPA merger policy was at the hands of US Air some sixteen years ago. Was what is fair and equitable then not fair and equitable now?

The fact is that ALPA merger policy was followed perfectly. If there were 3100 AWA pilots and 1800 US Air pilots, we wouldn't even be having this discussion would we??

I am not an ALPA National flag waver, but ALPA has the resources that we all need regarding representation for the whole body. They also have the programs in place that benefit all ALPA represented pilots, and have stood the test of time and trial. These programs include, but are not limited to Aeromedical, Air Carrier Security, Central Air Safety, HIMS, Retirement and Insurance, Professional Standards, Accident Investigation, etc.

The Nicolau Award will not change. Legally, it can not. In the meantime, the east has seen 2.5 years of growth already. With implementation, you are also talking about an additional 1-2 years AFTER we sign a joint contract. That is a total of 3 - 4 years of artificial fences. In fact, many of your furloughed pilots are already sitting left seat in the EMB 190!! Talk about a windfall! Why don't we expend our energies on something that REALLY benefits all LCC pilots.... focus our energy on Parker and his wallet??

 

[waveflyer]

you just hit the nail on the head cactusboy- they win the longer they delay, delay, delay.... When are AWA pilots going to grow a pair and sue AAA for walking away from the table? It's your only recourse- and only hope for a joint contract - the East has to have their hand slapped for what they are doing by a judge!

 

[erjdude]

Turbo:

I would expect nothing less from a fellow ALPA pilot....better for USAir to liquidate and for all of us to get in line behind you groveling for a job while you get the routes, upgrades, and $$$ while the rest of us start over? Not to mention the myriad of ALPA contracts, some are good, some are worse than the non-union houses. What about glass houses? It took two BK's for the USAir guys to have a contract worse than AWA.



A350

You explain and admit in one parigraph how you volintarily caused all your pain to yourself because you had to to to save your job. Interesting! Did ALPA national help you or hurt you then? Or was it local decisions and local votes?

Im confused Did ALPA national help you or hurt you? The company staiyed in business and all those decisions were made by your local MEC and voted in by you right?

So is this really about ALPA national or about NIC? And if it is about NIC you realize that is a zero sum game. For you to get what you (think) you are entitled you need to take it from someone else. That will not will not happen with yelllow or blue lanyards.

 

[BUDDHA145]

GREEN you are an idiot you will never see my green again!!!! here turn around ill show you where my FKN orange card is going to GO...

 

[MCDU]

The Nicolau Award will not change. Legally, it can not. In the meantime, the east has seen 2.5 years of growth already.

Growth, you call replacing 737 with 190's growth? 400 plus airplanes to little over 220 planes now. The last growth was almost 10 years ago. We have been parking planes. 757 and 737 are being parked. The only reason why people are moving up has been attrition. The only growth as been with regionals. Attrition will now slow now due to 65, but still many leave on medical and disabilty or early outs. We are stagnating in the EAST as well. Pilots replacing pilots. No growth. Still listing about 2800 active pilots on the line. Although staffing did go from 6 to 6.6 per aircraft.

Marty

 

[TWA Dude]

We are stagnating in the EAST as well.

Oh really? Offering recall to 1600 pilots and having hundreds of upgrades doesn't sound to me like stagnation. Spare us the crocodile tears. The West is about to see the first additions to our pilot ranks in 2-1/2 years: five pilots. Just like Nicolau stated: "This necessarily means that career expectations differed and that US Airways pilots had more to gain from the merger than their new colleagues." That octagenarian sure knew how to call it.

 

[cactusboy53]

Marty;
Yes they say the 737's are going to be replaced, but I have heard that when the leases come up....low and behold LCC keeps them at a good rate. No proof, but since LCC is still hiring and not reducing in force on the east...that would lend to this theory. In other words if you are replacing airplane for airplane, there should be no need to hire...right? Hiring stagnation briefly as a result of age 60/65...but the beat goes on.