Lets be honest here, and start using some facts

[NOZ]

At least 20% WILL be furloughed, as SWA is only taking 40 out of 51 airframes.

There is a way to integrate AND offer furlough protection. You furlough out of seniority order (ie only F9 pilots get furloughed).

[FONT=ARIAL,]From the Dallas Morning News: "Frontier’s pilot union rejected the offer from SWAPA that included job protections for ALL Frontier pilots, pay increases of up to 40 percent when Frontier pilots transitioned over to Southwest’s seniority list and other considerations."
[/FONT]

 

[GuppyWN]

Guppy,

You sound exactly like the entitlement crowd at Delta when we were going through our merger. Let me guess, you are at the bottom of the seniority list at WN and are looking for a windfall at someone else's expense.

Why not just be happy with what you have? Acquiring, merging, or whatever you want to call it, with F9 isn't really going to change the quality of life you enjoy today. Why try to make it hard on someone else for your gain?

There is some middle ground to be gained here. If SWA doesn't want to taint their holy "culture," then I am sure Mr. Kelly, SWAPA and FAPA can come up with some sort of resolution that is fair to all parties involved. I realize Kelly isn't the one wanting to staple the F9 pilots, it is the SWAPA pilots; however if SWA wants to maintain their financial success, and have labor peace, you cannot staple F9 pilots. Like I was saying, there is some common ground.

It's so easy to see why we have this huge health care debate going on right now. There are so many people here that feel they are entitled to something. I guess with the economy heading downhill everone is just grabbing on to whatever they can get. It is human nature, but if you TRULY, in your heart, think that you should be ahead of a F9 pilot who has been there for 10-12 years, then you are unconvinceable. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and you guys find the common ground.

Good luck

Bro, I'm a Captain at Southwest and have been for a couple of years. I am senior, by DOH, to about 60-70% of the F9 pilots.

Integration will not hurt me and it might even help me but I am not willing to sacrifice ONE SINGLE Southwest pilot in the process. The current SWA pilots, applied, interviewed, got hired and earned their seniority. The FAPA pilots will inherit theirs.

I'm not being closed minded about this. I'm just trying to protect my brothers that are already on property.

Gup

 

[dlzav8tr]

The main probleme with a staple in F9's pilots view is that WN only wants 40 aircraft. This is almost certain to result in furloughs.

 

[Vegaspilot99]

Even if there were furloughs, they need to look past that and see the big picture. What would you rather come back to?

 

[Cometman]

The main probleme with a staple in F9's pilots view is that WN only wants 40 aircraft. This is almost certain to result in furloughs.

I am sure that if that was FAPA's main problem with the deal that SWAPA would have gotten them a no furlough clause except for the 50 on the street now. A little adjustment with the other benefits could absorb that cost. SWA said they were going to continue the same flying F9 was doing plus start new service that neither carrier does now.

 

[SELFloadingCRGO]

The main probleme with a staple in F9's pilots view is that WN only wants 40 aircraft. This is almost certain to result in furloughs.

And what makes you think that RAH will not do the same? All F9 has is a "promise" from RAH on how it will be run as someone on here said, and if I'm not mistaken it's only a 3 year promise at that. Then what? I suppose a 190 looks sorta like a 318...


SLC

 

[StaySeated]

You are absolutely correct. Someone started a rumor about RAH and growth and it has just snowballed from there. There could be furloughs, staple, you name it at RAH as well.

There is no comparison between RAH and SWA. None. Zero. Nada.

With that being said, FAPA still has a duty to negotiate the best possible deal for their membership. WIN/WIN. Lets get this thing done.

 

[firstthird]

Why not just be happy with what you have? Acquiring, merging, or whatever you want to call it, with F9 isn't really going to change the quality of life you enjoy today. Why try to make it hard on someone else for your gain?

Redrum,

what you are failing to consider here is the difference b/t a growth airline (WN, maybe not for much longer though) and mature airlines (DAL/NWA). Mature airlines upgrade due to retirement. so, with a relative integration, your upgrade time is likely to be close to the same (demographic differences can screw this up, e.g. DAL had almost no really old captains, they all bailed and took the payday, NWA has pretty much ALL pretty old captains).

growth airlines upgrade mainly due to more airplanes, 1 airplane = 11 pilots = 5.5 captains.

if SWA grows overnight by 12% (700 frontier + 5900 SWA) then our junior guys just saw 2-4 years of typical growth vanish and they are still NO closer to upgrade, are in fact, 110 planes further from upgrade. they see no pay bump. no enhanced career expectations. What I see StatySeated offering is some 'furlough' protection since F9 guys could go out of ourder? well, we don't need furlough protection as is. we are cutting our lines and taking a hit to keep everyone around until the next growth phase.

SWAPA has the right for SWAPA. If FAPA wants to be part of SWA, then they need to get it right for them or they won't be, and that is just fine by 99% of us. Don't get me wrong, we'd love to have them, but frankly, I'm not excited about stapling them. I'm more excited about growing organically. I'm upset about anything but staple because it would totally screw our most junior and those guys have already taken the brunt of age 65 and our no growth mode, etc. sorry if that is blunt.

this really comes down to the fact that SWAPA doesn't need to get a deal done. we love where we are and what our prospects look like. maybe FAPA thinks RAH is a better deal, that is for them to decide. but if they are counting on M/B and binding arbitration, then I hope that they are wrong. they seem to be playing towards some eventual outsider deciding our fates and our CEO has stated more than once that that won't happen. Good on Gary!

firstthird

p.s. Save CJ!

 

[RedRum]

The current SWA pilots, applied, interviewed, got hired and earned their seniority. The FAPA pilots will inherit theirs.

Gup

Inheriting seniority? How do you figure? Apparently Gary Kelly and SWAPA wants to give it to them, and SWA isn't even dying.

Anyone with your view sounds so benevolent! I appreciate your noble nature as you sound resolute in your support of your fellow pilots. The same argument was poised by DAL guys during our negotiations. I just think it is a bit disingenuous to think that some current SWA FO's think Frontier wouldn't be a potential carrier they would go to had they been hired there.

 

[Caveman]

...this really comes down to the fact that SWAPA doesn't need to get a deal done. we love where we are and what our prospects look like.

That's true, but what isn't clear yet is whether or not SWA needs to get this deal done. I said it when the bid was first announced and I'll say it again: I think SWA will proceed even if a deal between FAPA/SWAPA has not been reached. If that happens then M/A will be a factor. SWA can get FAPA to play nice and also keep SWAPA happy by threatening to cancel the deal. The question is are they bluffing? Will they proceed with or without a FAPA/SWAPA agreement? I still think they might despite what they are saying publicly. Just my opinion.....

YMMV

 

[dlzav8tr]

If there are no plans for furlough then throw in a no furlough clause. I know that it would change alot of peoples minds. With only 40 a/c people on the bottm of f9 are looking at one REAL soon.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Caveman,
The problem that FAPA runs into by holding out is they don't know how or when the integration will take place. What I mean is that F9 will be run as a separate company for about 2 years. What happens if there is no agreement for a while? SWA reduces 11 planes quickly...F9 furlough. SWA continues to downsize the company...F9 furloughs. Why, because the F9 dudes have no where to go but out. Since there is no agreement, SWA brings on the guys from the pool to staff the new 73's for their new routes. This might be the scenario that the poolies want, but I am sure that no one else wants to see it play out that way.

 

[dlzav8tr]

Throw in some type of furlough protection and I think this deal could get done.

 

[Caveman]

Caveman,
The problem that FAPA runs into by holding out is they don't know how or when the integration will take place. What I mean is that F9 will be run as a separate company for about 2 years. What happens if there is no agreement for a while? SWA reduces 11 planes quickly...F9 furlough. SWA continues to downsize the company...F9 furloughs. Why, because the F9 dudes have no where to go but out. Since there is no agreement, SWA brings on the guys from the pool to staff the new 73's for their new routes. This might be the scenario that the poolies want, but I am sure that no one else wants to see it play out that way.

I don't disagree. There are a lot of unknowns. I just think SWAPA may want to be 100% sure the deal is off unless FAPA comes around. I'm not convinced it is and if SWA moves forward w/o a prearranged labor deal then M/A is in play. In that scenario FAPA was right to not agree to a staple. Further complicating things is I can't believe SWA would make this play for F9 unless they really wanted it. They either talked to SWAPA first and got them on board or they didn't care one way or the other. If they can squeeze FAPA to play nice, so much the better. Either way the purchase of Frontier still may happen.

 

[FlyinGuy]

I agree SWA wants F9 because they want DEN. I am not sure how sincere Gary Kelly is when he says the deal is off because labor does not reach an agreement. I do know that GK and his gang know how much money labor problems cause. Since SWA is all about making money, their culture is critical. If they lose the pilots because they "abandon" them, this equals lost money to the bottom line. I guess we will see how this game of chicken turns out pretty soon. The thing that we all know (some all to well) is that this game is played with peoples lives and careers.